Tracing Army deserters

[Devon Chorister]

Unfortunately I understand that my Grandfather deserted the King Royal Rifle Corps in the First World War. But I can find no record of him even on the National Roll (though his brother is listed there - his brother didn not desert). Does anyone know where deserters are struck off the National Roll, or is there any way of tracing their army records at all? I would be grateful for any tips and info.

[v.wells]

Need a name to look for. TNA at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search/quick_search.aspx?j=t

Type in Army deserters or WW1 and go from there.

[Terry Reeves]

Hello Devon Chorister

I presume that you are referring to the National Roll of the Great War. If that is the case, you should be aware that this was a commercial publication by the National Publishing Company and as such, had no official standing. It relied on relatives (or friends) who submitted the details, which we were reduced to a standard format. As far as I'm aware, no checks were ever made as to veracity, and the publication went to the wall before it was completed.

If you would like to publish his name here, I'm sure that there will a number or members who may be able to help.

Terry Reeves

[Peter Goodey]

Did he get caught? If so, there are courts martial records.

[Devon Chorister]

Thanks for your replies. I've learnt a lot already!

My grandfather's real name was George Jolley, and he was born in Birmingham in 1895.

He never got caught - he changed his name to Arthur Smith, and married my grandmother and had ten children. My grandmother married him as Arthur Smith aged 23 (I have a certified copy of their marriage cert - they married in 1917), but his real name was George Jolley, son of John H Jolley. (Thomas Jolley - my grandfather's brother - was L/Cpl in 2/6th Royal Warwickshire Regiment - he was listed in the National Roll, but by the sound of it it's not rated much?).

I will try the link - many thanks.

[Mike_E]

Unfortunately I understand that my Grandfather deserted the King Royal Rifle Corps in the First World War.

It's odd that you use the term "Unfortunately" in your post. From what I've read about the first war, and seen on TV documentaries, there were many horrors that these young men saw, and not everyone was able to take it. I was lucky during my time in the Military that I didn't have to go through what those solders went through, and your Grandfather lived with his actions for the rest of his life.

[Devon Chorister]

It's odd that you use the term "Unfortunately" in your post. From what I've read about the first war, and seen on TV documentaries, there were many horrors that these young men saw, and not everyone was able to take it. I was lucky during my time in the Military that I didn't have to go through what those solders went through, and your Grandfather lived with his actions for the rest of his life.

Thank you so much for your understanding. It's just that I'm conscious that other people's relatives gave their lives for their country, and desertion is generally seen as cowardice and a shameful thing (though I wouldn't be surprised if its a lot more common than is admitted?). I understand that some relatives of soldiers who were shot at dawn for desertion have asked for more understanding, even recognition. I don't have any views on that, but who knows what any of us would do in such gruelling circumstances.

I totally agree that the horrific things they saw must have made some of them flip - and when I think they were young men less than half my age (mere babies really), I for one do not judge them.

From what I can piece together (from other family members) my grandfather seemed to have suffered some kind of shell shock. Apparently his marriage and home life was never particularly happy because of the way the shell-shock affected him (and I think he drank quite a bit to dull the pain).

Apparently one thing which would help calm his outbursts was if his eldest stepson (who had a lovely voice) would sing to him, and this reduced him to tears and soothed away the pain. (My grandmother's first husband got KIA on the first day of the Somme, and she already had three children when as a widow she married my grandmother).

I always finding it slightly haunting that if my grandmother's first husband hadn't have got killed on the Somme, I would never have been born.

[Devon Chorister]

Need a name to look for. TNA at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search/quick_search.aspx?j=t

Type in Army deserters or WW1 and go from there.

Just say I found this a very useful link and have requested an estimate (after I have found my way round the site a bit!) There is a match for a George H Jolley in the 1914-18 War which sounds interesting. Thanks.

[Devon Chorister]

I didn't get very far - it seems quite impossible to trace army deserters who never got caught.

[bumblebee]

If you look at this link

http://www.bl.uk/collections/warfare3.html

scroll down to 'Police Gazette' - During the First World War, London's Police Gazette published a weekly list of 'Deserters and Absentees from His Majesty's Service'

Might be worth a follow up.

Would there still be a service record for him also?

Bumblebee

[Devon Chorister]

Thank you Bumblebee - no I couldn't find any Army records at all - though just recently I've discovered that he might have used the name "Jolly" not "Jolley" - so I am going to do a bit more research on this in September when schools are back and I have more time. Thank you for the link.

(Interestingly my Dad also told me that my Grandfather was good at maths and worked out everyone's bets for them!!! Also that he had beautiful copperplate handwriting. I am intrigued to know where he learnt to read and write and do arithmetic so well - he obviously had received some kind of education, unlike his social contemporaries who were largely illiterate and innumerate).

[leamington]

Devonchorister, you should be aware that 'desertion' and 'cowardice' were two rather different things in military law. This is not often understood and there has been much media hype concerning the men who were executed, that has served only to make this particular water even more muddy. A large number of men deserted at home, before they had got anywhere near a fighting front. A fair proportion of them re-enlisted into a different regiment, some using a different name. It was far more difficult to desert once you were at a fighting front.

As a word of advice, I would not go off down routes towards courts martial records. You could be wasting an awful lot of time. Leave that until you have some concrete evidence.

The first thing to do is to establish who he was (name) and his regiment and number. If you can't locate his army service record, go next to the medals records. You may even be lucky enough to find a medal record that shows he forfeited them as a result of desertion: then you are on to something.

You might also try the 1918 Absent Voters List (for the electoral district his home address would have been in). If he was away with the military in 1918, it will give his number and regiment, possibly his unit.

[Devon Chorister]

Thank you Leamington. Both yourself and Bumblebee have encouraged me not to give up!!! When I have more time in September, I shall renew my search and will report back any findings. I am very grateful for all your help.

I am interested to note that "desertion" and "cowardice" are classed as two different things. I didn't know they made that distinction.

[Beanie Jean]

I have recently discovered that my grandfather deserted the Gordon Highlanders in October 1917 but subsequently re-enlisted in the ACS under an alias. I am rather confused about it all, does anyone know how this could have come about? I live in Australia so it is very difficult for me to get to Kew & try & find his service records. Once I came to terms with the shock I thought- well I may not have been here if he hadn't done that, he went to France in January 1915- I'm surprised he lasted that long, 2 years in the trenches must have been horrible.

[ChristineR]

....(Interestingly my Dad also told me that my Grandfather was good at maths and worked out everyone's bets for them!!! Also that he had beautiful copperplate handwriting. I am intrigued to know where he learnt to read and write and do arithmetic so well - he obviously had received some kind of education, unlike his social contemporaries who were largely illiterate and innumerate).

Schooling was compulsory from 1880 for children from 5 to 12 years old, though according to census entries kids as young as 3 were scholars. :)

[Penny Gallo]

I think the puzzle is why more men didn't desert, given the horror they faced and the likelihood of a terrible death. There was a well-known parade through Northampton by the local regiment asking for volunteers. Apparently more men took the opportunity to desert than actually joined up!

I think we can feel proud of what our ancestors managed to face however they personally dealt with this horrific, all-engulfing event.

[Beanie Jean]

Devon Chorister- My Grandfather did recieve his medals despite having deserted- I don't know if they were under both of his names, I'm still researching that. Where I am confused is that I thought if you were caught, you were shot, so maybe my grandfather, like yours was never caught & the authorities only found out when he confessed after the war when he applied for his medals? Any ideas anyone? By the way, my father says that my grandfather, too, had beautiful copperplate handwriting.

[Procat]

Not all WWI deserters were shot.

From memory there were 306 executions of "British" servicemen including a number of Canadians, Irish and New Zealanders. No Australian servicemen were executed as the Australian Government at the time refused to allow it.

[Terry Reeves]

Devon Chorister

From what I can see, you have no solid evidence that he did desert . Personally I would not start on that basis, but concentrate on finding a man with personal details that are proven, if those records still exist of course.

Moving back to desertion for a moment, another possibility is, assuming the information you have is correct, that he was absent without leave (AWOL), a relatively minor military crime, for which he would not have lost his medal entitlement. Relatives passed the story down the line that he "deserted" ie, he had know intention of returning, not understanding there was a difference - AWOL normally meaning that a man returned to his unit having overstayed a leave pass by a few hours or perhaps a few days. That is exactly what happened to my grandfather, and I also had been told the family thought he had been a deserter.

Check and recheck the information you have . Keep badgering relatives. If they tell you they don't know anything, keep going back periodically and re-question them. It can pay off as I found out myself.

With regard to some of the wider issues brought up on this thread, can I say it is worth trying to look at the war from a wider perspective. Approximately 7 million men from the UK served in the armed forces. The total casualties, dead and wounded, including those from the Empire, was approximately 2 million. Bad enough of course, but that leaves 5 million men who escaped physically unscathed at least. There was also a huge logistic tail that supported the fighting units and many men never saw any actual fighting.

There are probably as many reasons are there are people as to why men sought to avoid military service, however, one of those was economics, concerns about how family left behind would cope. If your information turns out to be correct about desertion, this might be one of the reasons, and a starting point.

Terry Reeves

[Devon Chorister]

Thanks all for your replies and comments. This has been a great help - and also to hear of other people's experiences. I will certainly post up any information I come across and it's interesting to know that other people two have come up with relatives who "deserted" or seemingly "deserted".

It's not something one generally likes to "come out" with, but its good to know that in this generation we are more understanding of the horrors of WW1 and that there isn't so much stigma attached as there might have been a while back.

[Retlaw]

Thanks for your replies. I've learnt a lot already!

My grandfather's real name was George Jolley, and he was born in Birmingham in 1895.

He never got caught - he changed his name to Arthur Smith, and married my grandmother and had ten children. My grandmother married him as Arthur Smith aged 23 (I have a certified copy of their marriage cert - they married in 1917), but his real name was George Jolley, son of John H Jolley. (Thomas Jolley - my grandfather's brother - was L/Cpl in 2/6th Royal Warwickshire Regiment - he was listed in the National Roll, but by the sound of it it's not rated much?).

I will try the link - many thanks.

Your grandfather must have had a charmed life not to have been caught.

It was regular practice in my patch, for coppers stopping anyone of military age, and asking for their papers, local tribunals sat every week questioning men why they were'nt in the colours.

Then there is the problem with him finding employment, some of our engineering firms only employed men who were over military age, unfit for service, protected trades or badged.

Next time I'm in the library I'll look for him in the burnt and unburnt records.

He won't be in the medal records, I've been thro the East Lancs records at Fulwood Barracks, and created a searchable database from them, I found several men with an entry, medals forfeit, on checking their service papers, it was because of their military record.

Have you tried the local newspapers, where he was living when he enlisted.

I met a few men who suffered from shell shock after the war, and some were in a pitiful state. I've read quite a number of personal diaries over the years, and any one who was not born in the 1920's an 30's, would never comprehend the life in the trenches, to see your mates killed around you, bits of bodies landing on you, or in you food during the shelling, friends dying in your arms, with limbs missing, and guts hanging out, having to write letters of condolence to your best mates relatives, and tell them he did not suffer.

Thats why they wouldn't talk to relatives about the war, I used to sit with these ex soldiers as a yougster, when they were talking to one another, they did'nt mind me being there, so I heard a lot of things about life in the trenches. I also met quite a few survivors of the Accrington Pals, who knew my uncle and me, so were quite open with me. Sadly they've all gone now.

The youth of today don't know there born.


Retlaw.

[Devon Chorister]

Your grandfather must have had a charmed life not to have been caught.

It was regular practice in my patch, for coppers stopping anyone of military age, and asking for their papers, local tribunals sat every week questioning men why they were'nt in the colours.

Then there is the problem with him finding employment, some of our engineering firms only employed men who were over military age, unfit for service, protected trades or badged.


Well I must confess now that you've mentioned it this has crossed my mind. I'll pick my father's brains about this and ask him if he can remember how my grandfather earned his living. I have often thought he must have had to watch his back all the time.


Next time I'm in the library I'll look for him in the burnt and unburnt records.

He won't be in the medal records, I've been thro the East Lancs records at Fulwood Barracks, and created a searchable database from them, I found several men with an entry, medals forfeit, on checking their service papers, it was because of their military record.

Have you tried the local newspapers, where he was living when he enlisted.
Thank you so much for your help. I haven't tried local newspapers. All my family are from Birmingham so I might be able to find articles online in the Birmingham Post or something?

I met a few men who suffered from shell shock after the war, and some were in a pitiful state. I've read quite a number of personal diaries over the years, and any one who was not born in the 1920's an 30's, would never comprehend the life in the trenches, to see your mates killed around you, bits of bodies landing on you, or in you food during the shelling, friends dying in your arms, with limbs missing, and guts hanging out, having to write letters of condolence to your best mates relatives, and tell them he did not suffer.
I just can't even begin to imagine the dreadful pain they endured.

Thats why they wouldn't talk to relatives about the war, I used to sit with these ex soldiers as a yougster, when they were talking to one another, they did'nt mind me being there, so I heard a lot of things about life in the trenches. I also met quite a few survivors of the Accrington Pals, who knew my uncle and me, so were quite open with me. Sadly they've all gone now.
Well it's wonderful you were able to be part of that now lost generation - have you written a book aobut it? Might be good to get it down.

The youth of today don't know there born.
You can say that again. (Including myself in many way, but I am aware of it: but the teens and twenties today haven't a clue. Not that I'd wish the experience on them, but they need educating as to what these men went through and achieve for us, and be a bit more grateful and give some "pay back" into society).

[Retlaw]

Thanks for your replies. I've learnt a lot already!

My grandfather's real name was George Jolley, and he was born in Birmingham in 1895.

He never got caught - he changed his name to Arthur Smith, and married my grandmother and had ten children. My grandmother married him as Arthur Smith aged 23 (I have a certified copy of their marriage cert - they married in 1917), but his real name was George Jolley, son of John H Jolley. (Thomas Jolley - my grandfather's brother - was L/Cpl in 2/6th Royal Warwickshire Regiment - he was listed in the National Roll, but by the sound of it it's not rated much?).

I will try the link - many thanks.

I have found the service papers of a George Jolly enlisted as Pte. 1307 K.R.R.C. 25-8-14. discharged medically unfit 24-9-14. next of kin John Jolly 69 Bishopsgate St, Birmingham.

If these are the right papers I can resize them and email to you.

Walter

[Devon Chorister]

I have found the service papers of a George Jolly enlisted as Pte. 1307 K.R.R.C. 25-8-14. discharged medically unfit 24-9-14. next of kin John Jolly 69 Bishopsgate St, Birmingham.

If these are the right papers I can resize them and email to you.

Walter

WOW Walter!!! You're an absolute whizz! That would be absolutely fantastic. Thank you SO much. My great-grandfather was called John Jolly so this is looking good! I will pm you my email address. You're a star. .....thank you thank you thank you!

[Devon Chorister]

It's amazing!!!! - the paperwork Walter found does indeed tie in and seems to be my grandfather's army record!!! : age/place/names....even the lovely signature in copper plate handwriting - very emotional to see it, penned nearly 100 years ago. Big lump in my throat and big smile to Walter for finding this. It seems my grandfather didn't desert after all, unless there's some piece of the jigsaw missing. The mystery now is to why he changed his name, but that could be to avoid stigma of being discharged. Also address of 69 Bishopsgate St a bit of a surprise as my father seems to think George Jolley and his family lived in Latimer Street - so a bit of reserach for me to do there, unless my grandfather gave a false adress.

My father is gobsmacked - he can't wait to see the paperwork!!! Very grateful Walter - thank you so much.

[Beanie Jean]

I am finding this so interesting- having gotten over the initial shock of finding out that my grandfather had deserted. It took me several weeks before I was brave enough to tell my father (How much use would I have been on the Western Front???!!!) He was taken aback but thought about it for several days & then asked if the charge AWOL existed at that time- he remembered his father talking about being billeted with a family while he was recovering from wounds & that the daughter had "very pretty ankles"! we will never know if that was enough to make him desert & then perhaps when he regained his equilibrium it might have been easier to reenlist under a false name. I have sent the details to my sister who lives in Dorset & she was planning to visit Kew during her next holidays but if you're at all interested, Walter my grandfather's service numbers were: John Turnbull-S/3557- Gordon Highlanders and John Turner- M/345808-ASC. My father was under the impression that he had been transferred to the ASC because of his wounds. When I think about my grandfather,his experiences & his age I am in awe, he had lived in Polmont, near Linlithgow his whole life, his father was a train driver, but my grandfather was a farm labourer before he enlisted, so his education was limited (apparently he had lovely handwriting too), he left that quiet life for ther hell that was Flanders. It is wonderful to reach out & touch these memories. I remember him as an old man, allowing me to help him in his greenhouse!

[Retlaw]

I am finding this so interesting- having gotten over the initial shock of finding out that my grandfather had deserted. It took me several weeks before I was brave enough to tell my father (How much use would I have been on the Western Front???!!!) He was taken aback but thought about it for several days & then asked if the charge AWOL existed at that time- he remembered his father talking about being billeted with a family while he was recovering from wounds & that the daughter had "very pretty ankles"! we will never know if that was enough to make him desert & then perhaps when he regained his equilibrium it might have been easier to reenlist under a false name. I have sent the details to my sister who lives in Dorset & she was planning to visit Kew during her next holidays but if you're at all interested, Walter my grandfather's service numbers were: John Turnbull-S/3557- Gordon Highlanders and John Turner- M/345808-ASC. My father was under the impression that he had been transferred to the ASC because of his wounds. When I think about my grandfather,his experiences & his age I am in awe, he had lived in Polmont, near Linlithgow his whole life, his father was a train driver, but my grandfather was a farm labourer before he enlisted, so his education was limited (apparently he had lovely handwriting too), he left that quiet life for ther hell that was Flanders. It is wonderful to reach out & touch these memories. I remember him as an old man, allowing me to help him in his greenhouse!

You've got me puzzled with this one.
John Turnbull Private S/3557 Gordon Highlanders.
also Private 292307. Gorddon Highlanders.

Army numbers were changed in 1917 on a whim of the army top brass, who wanted to separate regulars from territorials


The number M/345808 A.S.C. for a John Turner, is a different man altogether.

Is this for Two Grandfathers or just the one.

The charge of AWOL did exist at that time, if he was arrested by the civilian police, there might be an account in the local newspapers.

Retlaw.

[Beanie Jean]

When I looked up the medal rolls it has written at the top "John Turner same person"- is it possible that someone wrote his name down incorrectly & that is why he is listed twice? He was clearly exonerated because he did recieve his medals but it is written on the card that he deserted at the end of 1917. I could email you copies of the medal roll entries if you are interested. This means a lot to my father, he was a career soldier & although we have no doubts about my grandfather's bravery it would be good to clarify what exactly happened.Cheers, Jean

[leamington]

Army numbers were changed in 1917 on a whim of the army top brass, who wanted to separate regulars from territorials.

I think you'll find the Army Council Instructions on this were to avoid admin problems being caused by each Territorial unit having its own numbering system, with inevitable duplication of numbers. Regular army and TF men were already separated from an admin viewpoint, and had different terms of engagement.

[Retlaw]

I think you'll find the Army Council Instructions on this were to avoid admin problems being caused by each Territorial unit having its own numbering system, with inevitable duplication of numbers. Regular army and TF men were already separated from an admin viewpoint, and had different terms of engagement.

There was an article in the Western Front some years back, which explained the renumbering. They were even renumbering men who had been killed.

My conclusion after reading the article, was snobbery among the army top brass, to separate regulars from territorial.
Regulars were issued with numbers 1 - 200,000 and territorials above that figure, it led to a complete cock up of the numbering system.

That snobbery amongst the regular brass, resulted in a lot of territorial records being destroyed, between the wars, I've spoken to old soldiers in the East Lancs, and they confirm the records were destroyed.

Where are the records from September 1914 to February 1915 for the Accrington Pals, and the paper work until they left for Egypt. BURNT.

Retlaw.

[Terry Reeves]

It had nothing to do with snobbery. The renumbering took place because the massive expansion of the army required it. Many thousands of men in the RE Inland Water Transport and Railway Operating Division were also renumbered and non of them were TF units. TF records were not deliberately destroyed, they just suffered the same same fate as the rest in 1940, destroyed in an air raid. Many regular army records are also missing on the same basis, including those of men who were members of the original BEF in 1914.

Terry Reeves

[Retlaw]

It had nothing to do with snobbery. The renumbering took place because the massive expansion of the army required it. Many thousands of men in the RE Inland Water Transport and Railway Operating Division were also renumbered and non of them were TF units. TF records were not deliberately destroyed, they just suffered the same same fate as the rest in 1940, destroyed in an air raid. Many regular army records are also missing on the same basis, including those of men who were members of the original BEF in 1914.

Terry Reeves

You've missed the point, I know records were destroyed in the blitz of 1940, I'm refering to those records that were at regimental headquarters, those were deliberately destroyed during the 1930's.

There is also the myth that two men in the same regiment cannot have the same number,
barnyard confetti. I put all the records of the East Lancs men, over 32,000, which are on micro film at Fulwood Museum into a database. Several men turned up with the same number, quite a few men in some records are referred to as receiving the 14/15 star, yet in another record he is not entitled to it, and his number also shows he wouldn't be entitled to it. Explain that one.

Retlaw.

[leamington]

The 11th East Lancs, the Accrington Pals, was not a Territorial unit. It was unofficially raised and adopted by the Army Council for the regular army. (All Kitchener's New Army units were officially regular army, but for war service hence the "Service" in their titles).

The remark about two men in the same regiment can't have the same number - of course they can and did. Most of the New Army battalions, and all the TF battalions, had their own numbering systems. It would be very easy - and there are countless examples - for Private 1234 from the 6th Battalion having a 1914-15 Star but Private 1234 from the 5th Battalion not qualifying.

The qualification for a particular medal is not connected to a man's number. In the case of the 1914-15 Star it was whether he had landed in a theatre of war on a date between 23 November 1914 and 31 December 1915. If in my example above 6th Bn had arrived on 31 December 1915 and 5th Bn the day after, one man gets the Star and the other doesn't. Very simple rules.

[Retlaw]

The 11th East Lancs, the Accrington Pals, was not a Territorial unit. It was unofficially raised and adopted by the Army Council for the regular army. (All Kitchener's New Army units were officially regular army, but for war service hence the "Service" in their titles).

I know all about the 11th (Service) Battalion East Lancashire Regiment. I worked with William Turner for 20 years on the Accrington Pals.

The remark about two men in the same regiment can't have the same number - of course they can and did. Most of the New Army battalions, and all the TF battalions, had their own numbering systems. It would be very easy - and there are countless examples - for Private 1234 from the 6th Battalion having a 1914-15 Star but Private 1234 from the 5th Battalion not qualifying.

Again you've missed the point. Two examples.
Sgt 212 Shipstone John T. 1st E.L. in one record no 14/15 star, in the other record he gets it.
The same thing happens to Pte. 685. Stuttard Spencer.

Pte. 883. Halliwell W.H. 1st East Lancs.
Pte. 883. Boswell. T. 1st East Lancs.


The qualification for a particular medal is not connected to a man's number. In the case of the 1914-15 Star it was whether he had landed in a theatre of war on a date between 23 November 1914 and 31 December 1915. If in my example above 6th Bn had arrived on 31 December 1915 and 5th Bn the day after, one man gets the Star and the other doesn't. Very simple rules.

I'm well aware of how the 14/15 Star was awarded, it is also easy to tell by a service number approximately when he joined the East Lancs, 20's and 22's were not issued till mid 1915, quite a number of those were trained in the 12th Battalion, along side the 11th, several of those in the 12th didn't get to France until after July 1st 1916.

After the battle of the Somme, a number of original Accrington Pals were sent to the training reserve, and issued with numbers starting with 35, yet others kept their orignal number and were posted to the 6th Battalion.

Retlaw.

[leamington]

[QUOTE=leamington;205320]
Again you've missed the point. Two examples.
Sgt 212 Shipstone John T. 1st E.L. in one record no 14/15 star, in the other record he gets it.
The same thing happens to Pte. 685. Stuttard Spencer.


It is quite common for man to be issued the Star and for it to be recorded on one medal index card, but for him to have another card recording the British War and Victory Medals. Is that what you mean, Walter? But I see John Shipstone's trio of medals are all shown on one index card. So what exactly is the second record you are referring to?

Private 883 Thomas Boswell did not serve at first with the 1st East Lancs. Your database probably shows that. He went to the Middle East, landing in May 1915. And of course 1st Battalion were in France at this time. I presume you mean he was later transferred to the 1st Battalion.

I see that by coincidence Private 883 William Halliwell also went to the Middle East in May 1915. As indeed did Shipstone and Studdart. Doesn't look to me as though they were 1st Bn at all - or does your database show they all transferred to it later on?

[Retlaw]

[QUOTE=Retlaw;205362]

It is quite common for man to be issued the Star and for it to be recorded on one medal index card, but for him to have another card recording the British War and Victory Medals. Is that what you mean, Walter? But I see John Shipstone's trio of medals are all shown on one index card. So what exactly is the second record you are referring to?

Private 883 Thomas Boswell did not serve at first with the 1st East Lancs. Your database probably shows that. He went to the Middle East, landing in May 1915. And of course 1st Battalion were in France at this time. I presume you mean he was later transferred to the 1st Battalion.

I see that by coincidence Private 883 William Halliwell also went to the Middle East in May 1915. As indeed did Shipstone and Studdart. Doesn't look to me as though they were 1st Bn at all - or does your database show they all transferred to it later on?

The records for the East Lancs are not the Medal Cards which can be viewed at documentsonline. The ones I refer to are on microfilm at Fulwood and are typed on special forms. Reel 1 has 1248 pages recording the details of 4843 men, they do refer to which medals a man received, they also record his previous service before he joined the East Lancs.

Several show medals forfiet or medals returned, disembodied, discharged class Z, discharge KR. para ( ) and killed in action.

During my research I have found the names of several men who were know to be in the East Lancs, who are not in these records.

It appears that quite a number of pages that should be on reel 4 are missing.

The original books were not always at Fulwood, the were at another museum in Preston, before being microfilmed, the originals are now at Kew.

Having searched several books of records at Kew, WO329/1733, WO329/1734-46, WO329/1785-1894 and WO329/1957-62 . The East Lancs are the worst organised records I have ever seen.

Retlaw

[jillw]

I followed up this suggestion because I am looking for a possible deserter too. Spent many happy hours at Colindale but had no luck unfortunately because there are literally hundreds of names in the lists, not only of deserters but also people who simply didn't answer their call-up. I have to go back because I only managed to work my way through two years worth.
P.S If you plan to visit Colindale take your own food and drink, you need a degree in astro-physics to work out the vending machines.