Missing death certificate

[urbangypsy]

I have been trying to obtain a copy of our grandfathers death certificate and whilst we know roughly the dates he died, we have been unsuccessful. I sent off for copies of death certificate following several searches in our local records library and internet search but they came back as not applicable to our grand father. I know he died between 1914 and 1918, I know where he lived, his date of birth, and the name of his wife but we are unable to get a death date. On the same lines we have been unable to obtain a birth certificate despite paying for a full search from the Liverpool records office. We have a copy of his baptism certificate but that is all. Records office said it was quite common in 1871 not to register births??
His brother was registerd with a completey different spelt surname with could explain the missing birth certificate but I have tried every possible different spelling available with no success. Any help/suggestions or advice would be most welcome.
Thanks
Lynda

[bwarnerok]

1914-1918.. it is possible he was killed during the war and if he was "away" it would not show up in the regular death records. You have to source outside the UK. The only way I've found to see these is with the British overseas deaths at findmypast.com which are a pain with the credit system.. but it does work.

I'm sure the local gurus will pop in with a zillion other ideas for you as well. If you would post his name, etc, a "fairy genemother" is sure to pop in with a solution.

-b-

[Peter Goodey]

I know he died between 1914 and 1918, I know where he lived, his date of birth, and the name of his wife but we are unable to get a death date.

In case he was killed in the war, check the Commonwealth War Graves site
http://www.cwgc.org/

Have a think about how it is that you "know he died between 1914 and 1918". Might your source be unreliable? Try extending your search before and after this period.

Checking probate records can help to clarify things. You'll probably find a copy of the index in your local record office.

[Wirral]

I'm off to Liverpool Library at 10 this morning. If you send me the names I can have a look to see what I can find. :)

[urbangypsy]

Hi his name was Thomas Graham, he was born in 1871 and died between 1914 and 1918. We know this because he had two sons both of whom died in the 1914-18 war and he too died leaving his wife, without a husband and minus two sons. He is my husbands grandfather.We have his baptism certificate and his marriage certificate but no birth and no death. I paid for a full search at southport office to no avail. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks

[arthurk]

Have a look at the UKBMD site - http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/ - click the link for Lancashire, and you'll get a list of loads of useful sites.

The Lancashire BMD site (2nd in the list) doesn't include Liverpool deaths for 1914-18 yet, but there are some Thomas Grahams elsewhere in the county. However, if you keep scrolling down the page you'll see a number of other links to pages with Liverpool information, any of which might help you.

Good luck,
Arthur

[uksearch]

Are 100% certain that he was born in 1871? There is a Liverpool registered Thomas listed in the September qtr 1870.

UK

[urbangypsy]

he was definately born 1871 but he has never lived in Liverpool, he was born and raised in Manchester and he died in Manchester.
I have looked at BMD and the one entry with a match is not our grandfather, the parents on the birth certificate are not his.
I also paid for a full search in Southport offices but to no avail.
Any help would be appreciated
Thanks
Lynda

[Wirral]

What were the names of his parents? When & at which church was he baptised? What name was his brother registered under? Also, have you found the family in any of the censuses? If they were from Ireland, maybe he died there.

[urbangypsy]

What were the names of his parents? When & at which church was he baptised? What name was his brother registered under? Also, have you found the family in any of the censuses? If they were from Ireland, maybe he died there.

Thomas Graham born 1871, son of John Graham and Annie Walsh/Welsh. both from Ireland. Baptised St. Patricks Church, Collyhurst Manchester, His Brother was registered as Martin Grahan. I have found the family in all the censuses since 1861. 1861 lists their surname as Grochen instead of Graham, 1881 lists surname as Graiken. Thomas Graham (our grandfather) definately died in Manchester as my husbands sisters remember the event.
Hope this helps, as we would all welcome both a birth certificate and death certificate for our grandfather.
Thanks
Lynda

[uksearch]

SNIP
On the same lines we have been unable to obtain a birth certificate despite paying for a full search from the Liverpool records office. We have a copy of his baptism certificate but that is all. Records office said it was quite common in 1871 not to register births??
SNIP

Thanks
Lynda

Sorry, I must be missing something here...if he was born in Manchester why search in Liverpool?

UK

[Wirral]

Baptised St. Patricks Church, Collyhurst Manchester, ....Thomas Graham (our grandfather) definately died in Manchester as my husbands sisters remember the event.

Was the family still in this area when Thomas died? If so, he is probably buried at St Patrick's as it has a graveyard. St Patrick's is Roman Catholic & I do not know where their records are kept. There are 2 possible deaths in the Manchester area for 1914 - 1918:
Thomas GRAHAM died September quarter 1914 Salford volume 8d page 128 age 43.
Thomas GRAHAM died March quarter 1916 Prestwich 8d 461 age 44.
I do not know Manchester well, so do not know if either of these registration districts covers the area where Thomas lived. Another possibility is that he died in hospital & that his death was registered in different district from where he lived.
Have you tried searching under different spellings of his surname? In the 1861 census it looks to me like GRACHEN & in 1881 as GRAIKEN. This might reflect how it was pronounced by the family at the time.
What information does the baptism certificate give? I haven't seen an RC one, but baptism entries for RC churches sometimes give the full name of the mother as well as that of the father. If that is the case, then you wouldn't get much more information from a birth certificate anyway, only the occupation of the father.
By the way, LancashireBMD lists the marriage of John GRAHAM & Ann WELCH in 1851 at Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended (that often means an RC wedding).

[urbangypsy]

Sorry, I must be missing something here...if he was born in Manchester why search in Liverpool?

UK

I searched the church records in Manchester but applied to Liverpool/Southport records office for copy of birth/death/marriage certificate. Have I applied to the wrong office?

[urbangypsy]

Thank you so much for this info and advice. I will certainly get on with this tomorrow.
Your help is very much appreciated and extremely welcome.
Best wishes
Lynda

[urbangypsy]

[QUOTE=Wirral;120042.
By the way, LancashireBMD lists the marriage of John GRAHAM & Ann WELCH in 1851 at Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended (that often means an RC wedding).[/QUOTE]

I have checked this and they were indeed married in 1851 on 9/11/1851 but it was at St. Patricks Church Collyurst. I have a copy of the marriage certificate Ref number (I think) MF9/59.
Thanks for your help it really is appreciated. I have been doing this research for many years on my own and any advice is welcomed.
Lynda

[uksearch]

I searched the church records in Manchester but applied to Liverpool/Southport records office for copy of birth/death/marriage certificate. Have I applied to the wrong office?

Originally Posted by shelyndan http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?p=118993#post118993)
SNIP
On the same lines we have been unable to obtain a birth certificate despite paying for a full search from the Liverpool records office. We have a copy of his baptism certificate but that is all. Records office said it was quite common in 1871 not to register births??
SNIP

Thanks
Lynda

You confused me, Liverpool Record Office and GRO Southport are two different entities. There is no point in looking for a Manchester event in Liverpool Record Office.

UK

[uksearch]

Okay his birth is not listed on the GRO. Have you tried Manchester Register Office? If they can't find him, then he wasn't registered or registered under another name (spelling). He was born Dec 11th so he could have been registered either Dec qtr 1871 or Mar qtr 1872.

UK

[uksearch]

Was the family still in this area when Thomas died? If so, he is probably buried at St Patrick's as it has a graveyard. St Patrick's is Roman Catholic & I do not know where their records are kept. There are 2 possible deaths in the Manchester area for 1914 - 1918:
Thomas GRAHAM died September quarter 1914 Salford volume 8d page 128 age 43.
Thomas GRAHAM died March quarter 1916 Prestwich 8d 461 age 44.
I do not know Manchester well, so do not know if either of these registration districts covers the area where Thomas lived. Another possibility is that he died in hospital & that his death was registered in different district from where he lived.
Have you tried searching under different spellings of his surname? In the 1861 census it looks to me like GRACHEN & in 1881 as GRAIKEN. This might reflect how it was pronounced by the family at the time.
What information does the baptism certificate give? I haven't seen an RC one, but baptism entries for RC churches sometimes give the full name of the mother as well as that of the father. If that is the case, then you wouldn't get much more information from a birth certificate anyway, only the occupation of the father.
By the way, LancashireBMD lists the marriage of John GRAHAM & Ann WELCH in 1851 at Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended (that often means an RC wedding).

No burials took place after 1858 at St Patrick's.

Manchester Central Library and Lancashire Record Office.

Thomas GRAHAM Salford 1914 a possible but unlikely.

Thomas GRAHAM Prestwich 1916 possible and likely.

UK

[uksearch]

SNIP
What information does the baptism certificate give? I haven't seen an RC one, but baptism entries for RC churches sometimes give the full name of the mother as well as that of the father. If that is the case, then you wouldn't get much more information from a birth certificate anyway, only the occupation of the father.
By the way, LancashireBMD lists the marriage of John GRAHAM & Ann WELCH in 1851 at Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended (that often means an RC wedding).


Mother's maiden name WALSH

Nov 9th 1851 Bride's name WELCH

UK

[urbangypsy]

No burials took place after 1858 at St Patrick's.

Manchester Central Library and Lancashire Record Office.

Thomas GRAHAM Salford 1914 a possible but unlikely.

Thomas GRAHAM Prestwich 1916 possible and likely.

UK

Do I need to purchase these certificates to find out the info on them or is it possible to look at info before purchase to make sure it is the correct one?
Thanks for your help it is appreciated
Lynda

[urbangypsy]

Okay his birth is not listed on the GRO. Have you tried Manchester Register Office? If they can't find him, then he wasn't registered or registered under another name (spelling). He was born Dec 11th so he could have been registered either Dec qtr 1871 or Mar qtr 1872.

UK

Dont think I tried Manchester Register Office for this, Do I need to go to the office or is it available online? Whilst I have been researching the history for many years, I have ambled through on my own and I am not very familiar with different record offices so please excuse my ignorance.
Thanks for your help it is appreciated
Lynda

[uksearch]

Dont think I tried Manchester Register Office for this, Do I need to go to the office or is it available online? Whilst I have been researching the history for many years, I have ambled through on my own and I am not very familiar with different record offices so please excuse my ignorance.
Thanks for your help it is appreciated
Lynda

You can contact them online...but they now charge £1.00 extra for using a card.

UK

[uksearch]

Do I need to purchase these certificates to find out the info on them or is it possible to look at info before purchase to make sure it is the correct one?
Thanks for your help it is appreciated
Lynda
No it is not possible, but before you purchase you can stipulate certain perameters. I think it would be better to find out more about him before going down that avenue...address, occupation, next of kin etc...or maybe you already have this information.

UK

[urbangypsy]

thanks for getting back to me, I have much of the info you suggested, occupation, next of kin, etc so that should make it a bit easier,
thanks again for your help and advice, it is appreciated,
|Lynda

[urbangypsy]

Just an update, I have at long last obtained the 'missing' death certificate for our grandad. On the form that I filled in to request a search, they asked for additional information and one of the questions was 'occupation'. I put down his last known occupation which was tram driver. The records office sent letter back saying unable to find certificate even though I had supplied three possible reference numbers. I queried this with them only to find out that the requests had been rejected as his occupation was not tram driver at time of death but electric crane driver. Al the other info ie wifes name, address etc was correct. Thankfully the lady at the records office was extremely helpful and she confirmed that all the other info was a match.
I have been looking for this certificate for many many years and had purchased numerous incorrect ones. Incidently he died in Moston but the area of death was registered under Prestwich.


I have been trying to obtain a copy of our grandfathers death certificate and whilst we know roughly the dates he died, we have been unsuccessful. I sent off for copies of death certificate following several searches in our local records library and internet search but they came back as not applicable to our grand father. I know he died between 1914 and 1918, I know where he lived, his date of birth, and the name of his wife but we are unable to get a death date. Thanks
Lynda