Jane Taylor

[melsibob]

My great grandfather Henry Sutcliffe married Jane Taylor in 1896 in Grimsby. I found that Jane was born in Grimsby in 1876 to Jane Taylor and George Johnson. The only record for Jane Taylor (1876) I can find other than the census return in 1901 - (when she was married) is her baptism record. This is where I got her parents names from. I cannot find Jane, her twin brother or her parents before the 1901 census. Her parents and brother do not appear on the 1901 census. Anyone got any ideas of where I can search? Or explain why the family does not appear anywhere?

[Pam Downes]

Hi Melsibob,
Apologies in advance - it's not supposed to sound like the Spanish Inquisition with all these questions! :)
Do you have the marriage certificate of Henry and Jane? This should give her father's name and occupation.
Baptism record. Does it actually say that Jane and her brother were twins, or imply it by giving the same birth date for them? Just because two people are baptised on the same day it doesn't make them twins. Even if they've been given the same birth date, the vicar could still have made a mistake (he wouldn't be the first one to do such a thing!:D) And most importantly of all, what's the occupation of the father given in the baptism register? If he's in the army he and the family may well have been abroad at census time. Watermen are a bit difficult to trace too. If he's a sailor or seaman, he could have drowned between 1876 and 1881. Wife remarries, kids listed on census under her new hubby's name?
Also. are you assuming that Jane was born in 1876 in Grimsby because she was baptised in 1876 in Grimsby?
And (finally - for the moment :D) - name of Jane's brother, please?
Pam

[Pam Downes]

This smilie with the dunce's hat was supplied especially for me. |dunce2|
I'm now wearing it.
Baptism - parents listed as Jane Taylor and George Johnson would imply that the parents weren't married, unless the register says something along the lines of 'George and Jane Johnson nee Taylor'. So do Jane and George then get married, so baby Jane and her brother are found in the census under the name of Johnson, as per my 'mother remarries' scenario in my previous post?
(toddles off to investigate.....)
Pam

[melsibob]

I suppose becuase both were baprtised on the same day I assumed they were twins. Jane's brother is called Albert. I have searched the census under both Taylor and Johnson. The register actually says the father is George Johnson and the mother is simply referred to as Jane - no surname but both children were called Taylor. I haven't noted his occupation and I am sure I would have done - I am pretty good at things like that!

The marriage details refer to George Henry Taylor and Elizabeth Taylor as witnesses George Johnson is noted as a labourer. Does this help?

[Anna]

I don't know if this helps at all, but in 1891 there is a Jane Johnson aged 16 born Grimsby working as a domestic servant in Grimsby. At the age of 16 a lot of children would have left home to work.

As to dates of Christenings, my g.g.grandfather had all his five Christened on the same day!

[Pam Downes]

I suppose becuase both were baprtised on the same day I assumed they were twins. Jane's brother is called Albert. I have searched the census under both Taylor and Johnson. The register actually says the father is George Johnson and the mother is simply referred to as Jane - no surname but both children were called Taylor. I haven't noted his occupation and I am sure I would have done - I am pretty good at things like that!

The marriage details refer to George Henry Taylor and Elizabeth Taylor as witnesses George Johnson is noted as a labourer. Does this help?
Might do. It's surprising what you can find out from even the smallest detail. Did the witnesses both sign, or did the vicar write any names and they then made their mark? (i.e. is there any chance that the vicar could have written the wrong name as a witness?)
Pam

[Peter Goodey]

The register actually says the father is George Johnson and the mother is simply referred to as Jane - no surname but both children were called Taylor.

I suppose it's me but I'm totally bemused by what you say about the baptism

I'd normally expect an 1876 baptism to show, among other things, separate columns for:-

Child's christian names;
Parents' christian names;
Parents' surname(s).

There is no column for child's surname. So what exactly did appear in this case? Whereabouts did "Taylor" appear on the baptism entry?

[melsibob]

i'll have to double check that - I don't have a copy to hand - from memory the children's names were listed in full ie Christian name followed by Surname, Father's name in full but mother's name simply said Jane

[Peter Goodey]

The plot thickens...:D

[melsibob]

I have since rembered that a contact I made at the local Family History Group emailed the information below - unaware I had already found the information on the microfiche in the library - so it confirms what you say but also what I said- and proves that I got the year wrong it should be 1875 not 1876!

Parish date Child's christian name Parent's Surname
Father's names Mother's names Abode Quality, Trade or Profession
Date of birth Notes

St Andrew's
22 Oct 1875
Jane TAYLOR George Johnson Jane 130 Kent St Labourer
private
St Andrew's
22 Oct 1875
Albert TAYLOR George Johnson Jane 130 Kent St Labourer
private


Thanks for your interest/support

[Pam Downes]

Hi Melsibob,
My first reaction to the baptism info is that I would want to see the actual PR. It reads as if the father's name could be George Johnson TAYLOR, but without seeing the actual page you will never know. As Peter has said, the columns should read
date and entry number,
child's given name(s),
given names of parents
surname
abode
occupation of father
signature of officiating minister.
Does the library have copies of the PRs on fiche? If so, go and have another look, and while you're there check for other Taylor and/or Johnson entries. Especially George Henry Taylor and Elizabeth Taylor, (though Elizabeth may or may not be George's wife).
If the library doesn't have copies of the actual PR, then for a small charge Lincolnshire Archives can provide you with a copy of the page.

Pam

[Sue Mackay]

Jane was apparently using the name TAYLOR when she married Henry SUTCLIFFE in June qtr 1896 Caistor vol 7a page 1479

Have you got this certificate? If not you should get it and see whether a father is named. If George is not named as the father then it seems probable that Jane was illegitimate but that the father was mentioned on the baptismal entry.

In the 1901 census Jane SUTCLIFFE is said to have been born in Grimsby ca 1876, so the October 1875 baptism would appear to be shortly after her birth. I looked in FreeBMD births for a Jane TAYLOR born in Lincolnshire 1875 and the only likely one seems to be registered in Sleaford Sep qtr 1875 vol 7a page 415. It could be worth asking for the certificate and putting a check that the mother's name was Jane, but I should get the 1896 marriage certificate first. Just to muddy the waters there were a couple of Jane JOHNSONs registered in the same district in the same quarter!

[Peter Goodey]

I wonder if this is of any significance...

In the 1871 census 130 Kent Street is at RG 10/3413 f 57 p 15 where we find a George J TAYLOR and family. Could Jane be an absent daughter? Or some other relation?

[melsibob]

Thanks so much for your support - guess I need to get the marriage certifcate before I can move this on effectively

[Sue Mackay]

And the same George TAYLOR with wife Fanny (which was a nickname to lead many a family historian astray) in 1881 has a 5 year old daughter called Jane, born in Grimsby.

RG11; Piece: 3268; Folio: 97; Page: 11

There was also an infant death registered in Caistor in June qtr 1876 for an Albert Taylor, which might explain why he doesn't appear.

PS There were quite a few hits for George Johnson Taylor, so it could well be that Johnson was a middle name and the parents listed as James Johnson and Jane with the surname in another column.

[melsibob]

The 1871 also denotes a GH Taylor as a child in the household - George Henry Taylor was one of the witnesess to the marriage - therefore it looks as though the family was in fact Taylor not Johnson. Here's hoping the marriage certificate confirms it!

[Peter Goodey]

guess I need to get the marriage certifcate

Absolutely no doubt about that.

I'd suggest also getting the death certificate of Albert Taylor that Sue found.

There is also the death of George J TAYLOR in 1913 in Grimsby. I'd get that if only just to check what the "J" stands for.

Pam suggested taking steps to get a copy of the actual baptism register. I also think that would be a good idea.

[Pam Downes]

Melsibob,
If the library (presumably the one in Grimsby?) have the parish registers on fiche, then you won't necessarily need the death certificates. Look in the burials first, remembering that a death could be registered on the last day of the month in a quarter with the burial actually taking place in the next quarter.
If however you want to know why they died, then you will have to send for the death certificates.
Pam

[melsibob]

Sounds like a visit to the library on my list of things to do! Is it possible to print all of the above off? It would make it so much easier to refer back to.

Thanks everyone for all your input - looks like that's one wall that's tumbling down!

[Pam Downes]

Don't know about printing the page, but you can copy and paste the individual posts into a word document, and then print that.
Pam

[Sue Mackay]

Sounds like a visit to the library on my list of things to do! Is it possible to print all of the above off? It would make it so much easier to refer back to.


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