How do I find out if an Enumeration District Changed?

[Anna]

Hi,

I have been tracking a family from 1841 onwards, plain sailing until 1861 Wales Census where they disappear. I then find out the Census is incomplete for that area.

I have them again in 1871, 1881, 1901 still living on the same farm in Mamhilad, which comes under Pontypool, South Wales.

There is no trace of them, and no trace of Pentwyn Farm on the 1891, I have been through it all. For Mamhilad there are 10 pages in 1881 and 11 pages in 1901, but only 5 pages in 1890. It clearly says at the end of the form - 5 pages. What do I do now? Where else can I look for the 1891 Census or find out if the District changed for that one?

I am searching for Abraham Jenkins, Farmer, if has died before then it will be William Jenkins, aged 23, born Mamhilad who was running the farm in 1901 with wife Sarah and various children. How can a farm completely disappear????

[hughar]

For a list of what TNA knows to be missing from the 1891 census, go to http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp and enter:
Word or phrase - Missing
Year range - 1891 to 1891
Department - RG12
and Search.

[Mutley]

Hello,
On A....try I can only find the same as you, mind you, I had to google first to find out that Mamhilad was in Monmouthshire.
1861 is part of the missing census returns but I cannot find out that information for 1891

A CD of Monmouthshire including Mamhilad for 1891 is available from
http://www.parishchest.com/en-gb/dept_211.html

[Mutley]

On A....try it is district 23
RG12/4364
and there are only 5 pages with 'End of R S D' written at the bottom of the 5th page.

Weird though, is that when clicking on the district and then clicking on
View description of enumeration district

it just takes you to the 5 pages, therefore I suspect that the beginning pages are actually missing.

[Anna]

Thanks for that link, it shows The Reformatory for Boys is missing in 1891, I guess it only lists Institutions not other properties. As the Census is only 5 pages instead of 10 the previous one and 11 the next one I guess they just missed out half the village or never collected the results!! Pentwyn Farm should be next to Firs Farm, it's not vital in one respect as I have the family there in 1901, it just breaks the continuity.

I shall use that link again next time I hit a brick wall just to check there is a missing piece.

[Peter Goodey]

You need to distinguish between

1) data that is not in the possession of the National Archives and

2) data that exists but hasn't been reproduced by your particular supplier.

Have you tried another supplier or better still looked at the film?

[Pam Downes]

You need to distinguish between

1) data that is not in the possession of the National Archives and

2) data that exists but hasn't been reproduced by your particular supplier.

Have you tried another supplier or better still looked at the film?
The company that Mutley used has been known to miss out whole pieces that exist as well as pages :eek: , but in this instance they do seem to have all the known pages as I've checked with another online company and they also list 145 individuals living in Mamhilad.
Pam

[Ken Boyce]

Hi,

What do I do now? Where else can I look for the 1891 Census or find out if the District changed for that one?
How can a farm completely disappear????

Hi Anne I think you are confusing Registration Districts with Enumeration Districts The former cover very large areas are somewhat consistant from yr to yr and contain 10s of EDs EDs are based on the number of households (not residences0 that the Enumerator could reasonably cover in a given time period In metropolitan areas there could be about 40-60 EDs in a RD and up to 300-400 schedules (households) in an ED The number and location of an ED is not fixed from Census to Census but depends upon the mode of transport and the population density for the area

Also I got the impression that you looked at the summary pages at the end of the ED They are in fact the front ones there should be 6 pages
The order of the Enumeration District Front Sheets is:
1. ED # and handwritten description of ED boundaries
2. General Instructions to the Enumerator (printed page)
3. Example (printed page)
4. Summary Table 1
Table 2
5. Abstract of Following Pages
6. Signatures
7. First page (Page 1) of schedules always starting at Page 1 Schedule #1
The end of each parish and local government district withih an ED must be shown R. S. D. most likely means the end of Rxxxx Sewer District
which makes me think that is the end of the ED You check this by comparing the number of sxhedules in the ED with the abstract front sheet

How does a farm disappear - easy it is in another ED or PIECE or the Enumerator has used a different discription or the transcription and/or the online index is screwed - it happens quite often.

That is why one should always check the actual images of the Census not someones script
HTH
Regards

[Peter Goodey]

R. S. D. most likely means the end of Rxxxx Sewer District

RSD stands for Rural Sanitary District.

[Ken Boyce]

PS I found these in kelly's 1901 Directory

Jenkins Mary, Louisa & Kate (Misses), farmers, Tredomen
Jenkins John, Horseshoe P.H
Jenkins William, farmer, Pentwyn & Fir Trees

[Anna]

Thank you for your replies.

In the Censuses either side of the 1891 The Reformatory takes up nearly 2 pages. Pentwyn Farm always comes on pages 10 or 11 in them, after Fir Farm and before Mount Pleasant. Mount Pleasant is also missing.

Also, in the No. of Schedule in left hand column of the 1891 the numbers don't run in sequence, Tanyard is 63, Firs is 39, then it switches back to No. 64, then 40, 41, etc. Again on Page 1 Tanyard is 37, 38 and 62. I do suspect a whole load of forms were lost and never actually transcribed. Even allowing for the Reformatory taking up 2 pages then at least 3, possibly 4, pages are not listed.

[Peter Goodey]

Word or phrase - Missing

Would that it were that easy! :confused:

What we would call "Missing" is actually covered by two distinct terms in the catalogue - "Missing" and "Wanting".

I posted fuller advice some time ago at the start of the following thread...
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13086

[Ken Boyce]

RSD stands for Rural Sanitary District.


My o my how one quickly forgets

You are of course quite correct as usual

[Ken Boyce]

Hi Anna

I suggest thst you ignore what went before 1891as that may have little or no relevance

At the top of each image page of the 1891 there is a printed Page # odds on the right evens on the left (NOT the Stamped Folio #) Check the sequence of these page #s and compare the total # of schedules on each page against the corresponding page # in the Abstact Table

It is not uncommon for the schedules to be out of sequence (occasionally the page #s are wrong) the secret is the comparision of the totals/page with the Table

If there is no Table try comparing the finishes of each page with the start of the next page # in page # sequence

Regards

[Anna]

Hi, Just had a look at those 5 pages and the numbers printed on the right are 1 (but that is hand written) 8, 9, 10, 11. There is not an abstract page. As Pam has also checked other sources I guess I'll just assume all other 6 pages were lost! The edges are rather battered on the left hand side.

Ken, the 1901 Kellys is the family I am looking at, I have them very clearly, Wm. and Sarah and their eight children, they were at Pentwyn back in '81 and '71 so in one way it's not a problem, more of an annoyance not to see who the family comprised in 1891 plus part of Mamhilad for 1881 are also missing so I don't know if they were at Pentwyn then.

[Ken Boyce]

Hi Anna One last kick at the can

Are the stamped on folio #s in sequence with no gaps (these should show every other page in the top RH corner)

If they are in sequence with no gaps this would mean that the 6 missing pages have long gone

If in sequence with gaps this could mean that the pages exist but were either missed in the PRO filming or were missed when they were digitized by the publisher The LDS hold copies of the original PRO microfiche for the 1891 - Film # 6099474 contains Piece RG12/4364 (which should contain the ED of interest) with luck the LDS fiche may contain the PRO record filmed with the pages which are now missing

Regards