Hello

[Thisby]

Hello,

This looked like such an interesting place that I decided to register. I wonder if anyone could help me with a search problem I'm having.

I've been researching for a few months for the Hollylee/Sollis families and have got quite far but what has quite surprised me is how differently the names have been transcribed. I've found my great grandmother Isabella Hollylee nee Sollis under such names as Tisbelle Sallis, Arabella Hallyle, Isbel J Solligs and Tisbel Jolles. Also came across her as a Sollys. As for the other members of the Hollylee family, I've found them under Holly, Hollie, Holley, Hollyleo and a few more besides. As my g grandmother died young in 1898 I'm trying to find out what happened to her husband George and his youngest children. I know they were definately in the same area but haven't had much luck. I've tried soundtex and wondered if anyone had any other ideas. I've toyed with the idea of going through all the census returns in the area (Peckham)for 1901 but it seems like a mammoth task.

Many thanks
Thisby

[Geoffers]

Welcome to the forums and good luck with your research.

Failing to find someone using the indexes available can be down to several things, amongst which are:

1. The name has not been read very well, either by the enumerator, or the indexer and recorded wrongly

2. He had died before the census

3. Someone was in an institution of some sort and only known by their initials (workhouse, prison, hospital)

4. Your George had another forename by which he was also known

5. The census book has been damaged/missing. If damaged, there may be odd pages at the end of the book which have been torn or are missing.

6. He had gone abroad at the time of the census - could he have jhoined the military? Was he in a job which needed him to go abroad?

Can you locate your chap in any directories in the first decade of the 20th century? This might indicate that he had moved to a different part of London

How old would your chap have been in 1901? Where was he born? What did he do for a living?

Geoffers

PS - sometimes you do just have to trawl a census return for an area - takes a while but at least you know for certain whether someone was there - or not.

[Thisby]

Hello,

Thank you very much for your reply.

George would have been around 45 in 1901, he died 1915. I believe he was a labourer. Also extremely unlikely that he moved out of the area or went abroad. Walworth or Newington would have been the furthest he would have gone I think. (born in Newington)

I've had a look through old telephone directories but he isn't to be found. Are there other directories I can search?

I do suspect that his name hasn't been read very well as I've come across that several times. I hope the census book hasn't been damaged or is missing.
I just have this feeling he's out there somewhere, tucked away

I don't think he had another forename, have never seen one on any of the other census forms. It took me a while to find out that Eliza was my great aunt Alice and that my grandmother known as Annie was Matilda Hannah.

I'm rather fortunate that I have two cousins still alive who are his granddaughters and they have passed on family stories. Unfortunately though, he was a very unpleasant man, they can't tell me where he would have been living in 1901. His youngest two children Ernest 16, my grandfather and Harriett 14 would possibly have been living with him at this
time.

You mentioned an institution, oddly enough he was on the reform ship Cornwall in 1871. I would just love to know what he did to be put there but I don't even know where to start looking for court records.

Seems like I had a juvenile delinquent ggrandfather.

[Geoffers]

George would have been around 45 in 1901, he died 1915. I believe he was a labourer. I've had a look through old telephone directories but he isn't to be found. Are there other directories I can search?

Post Office and other directories are very useful in research; they can be found in many record offices and large numbers have been copied onto CD/DVD and can be purchased online from suppliers such as those advertising on http://www.parishchest.com/ other publishers advertise in genealogical magazines which can be see in newsagents.


I do suspect that his name hasn't been read very well as I've come across that several times. I hope the census book hasn't been damaged or is missing.

The fact that his younger children are also missing hints towards them being in a damaged part of an enumerator's book.


I don't think he had another forename, have never seen one on any of the other census forms.

There's a birth in the GRO index in 1853 which looks like it may be your chap, he is only named George.


Unfortunately though, he was a very unpleasant man,he was on the reform ship Cornwall in 1871.

In this case, I just wonder if he was in the clink in 1901, either under an alias, or mis-spelt, or just recorded as initials.

Geoffers

[suedent]

As a long-shot could this be Harriet?

Harriett Brown Head S 30 Foster Mother Staffs, Wolverhampton
Maud Barnes Serv S 19 Mothers Help Dom London Where Nk
Emily Mecklenburgh Serv S 15 Mothers Help Dom London Where Nk
Harriett Hollybee 14 School Girl London Where Nk
Amy Tearoe 13
Alice Rees 9
John Youngman 9
George Shirley 8
George Bishop 7
Gdns Home for Children, 82 Peckham Rd, Camberwell. London
RG13/497 ED 23 Folio 96 Page 2 Sched 4

If the family stories are true it would figure that he wouldn't (or couldn't) raise the children himself.
I can't find Ernest (also checked Earnest) but it's possible at 16 that he was in the services.

[Thisby]

Thank you all so much for your help, I can't tell you how delighted I am

I feel sure that Harriett Hollybee is my great aunt, the girls school is a stones throw from from other family members. It looks like a very small school. I know the street well. It now makes sense when I was told that Harriett would cross the road when she saw her father - she obviously wasn't living with him.

I typed in Hollybee at Ancestry and came up with a few names all of which seem to be family members. One was the marriage index for my great aunt Alice, I clicked to see who else was on the page and lo and behold there was George Wood her husband. Dates match too. The only thing is it was typed as Hollybee. The other line I had been searching was my gg grandfather's brother James. I may have found his widow. It never occured to me to type in the name Hollybee. Genius! I think Ls can be confused with Bs

I don't know if Ernest would have been in the services, he was rejected for the army in 1914 as unwell but it's worth following up. My mum told me he would sleep on park benches rather than go home so he may have found somewhere else to live.

As for George and the clink, if he wasn't in prison I think he should have been. My cousin who is 91 told me of the incident that her father witnessed. His dad George, in a temper threw a knife at Isabella, she ducked and the knife landed in baby Bertie's eye and he was blinded. One of many horrors. Yet all George's sons turned out to be wonderful, much loved fathers. I suppose if only the initials are given in prison I might not find him. (only a couple of years to the 1910 census!)

Also thank you for the information about the directories, it's something I will definately follow up.

Many thanks again for this little bit of treasure. (I would do a jig but the knees aren't too keen)

Thisby

[suedent]

I don't know if Ernest would have been in the services, he was rejected for the army in 1914 as unwell but it's worth following up. My mum told me he would sleep on park benches rather than go home so he may have found somewhere else to live.

If Ernest was in the habit of sleeping rough rather than going home it might explain why he didn't appear on the census.

If you fail to find George in an institution have you considered that he may have been using an assumed name - he sounds like a man who would make enemies. There is also the possibility that he was avoiding the authorities.

[Thisby]

I think this is a possibility as far as Ernest is concerned but I know he was very close to his older brothers, particularly Frederick who was married by this time. I feel sure he would have helped him out someway. Perhaps Ernest moved from family to family.

I've realised I've made a mistake and completely forgot that Henry b 1891 and Bertie b 1894 were the youngest as of course, they aren't on the 1891 census.
So at least that narrows down the years a little as I know my granddad was married in 1910 and my mother was born in Rolls Road the same year.

As for George, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find he had changed his name at some time but what on earth would he have done with the two young boys? probably another school or family member.

I must say the Hollybee list has been such a help. I found who I believe is my great aunt Alice, boarding at the same street the family live in 1891. Canterbury Road. The same Alice who married George Wood a few years later. Unfortunately they had all gone from that address no. 26 by 1901

My cousin often mentions a Blockhouse Street, which was just a few streets down from Canterbury Road. I've seen it on some old maps, but I can't find it
in any census forms. I don't quite know how to look for just a street on Ancestry.

I really thought I had reached a dead end, but your help has been invaluable.
Lots of new avenues to search now.

Thank you

[suedent]

Had you found these two family groups?

Edward Hollylee Lodger S 43 Bricklayers Labourer Walworth, Surrey, England
Lodging House, 616 Old Kent Road, Camberwell, London
RG13/512 ED 49 Folio: 17 Page 22 Sched 118
(Indexed as Hollyleo)

Frederick Hollylee Head M 74 London, Camberwell
Elizabeth Hollylee Wife M 73 London Boro'
Albert Hollylee Son M 26 Dock Labourer London, Camberwell
Emma Hollylee D in Law M 25 London, Peckham
69 Verney Road, Camberwell, London
RG13/521 ED 42 Folio 155 Page 33 Sched 238
(Indexed as Hollyler)

I find with names prone to frequent misreading it's often worth using wildcards for the second half of the name (ie. Holl*). I am reasearching the name Quaintrell/Quantrill & have come across some very interesting interpretations!

Failing that, a search using the first name, age and birthplace can sometimes winkle out the more elusive family members. It can be a laborious process but I have found a few that way.

[Thisby]

Frederick and Elizabeth were my gg parents, they lived to a good old age.1909 and 1910. I found him in two other census returns from 1871 as Holly and Holley. Perhaps he actually changed it when George was sent to the remand ship.

I've had a few problems with Albert. Married 1899 a Mary Ann E Vines and a Rosa Jane Brunton are on the same page. I suppose Mary Ann looks promising with the E initial. Perhaps looking for both their birth details would help.

I think Edward was one of Frederick and Elizabeth's son who didn't marry.


I certainly agree that names are prone to misreading. My paternal grandmother is named as Worricker on one daughters birth certificate, Waricker on another, Worricker and Warricker on different census returns. I think there was a related Warwicker too. Great fun and not a little frustration, as I'm sure you're finding with the Quaintrell/Quantrill names. I can see them being misspelt in lots of ways.

Thanks for the tip of using wildcards for the second half of the name. Something I hadn't thought of.

And to just let you know that I've found Blockhouse Street, it was William on the Hollybee list. So pretty certain I've found another relative.

By the way have you read the item about soundex at about.com? It's all to do with entering numbers. It didn't really work too well for me but it was close.

Thisby

[Thisby]

Hello,

I wonder if I can ask about something thats puzzling me. Is it possible that someone could be registered on two different census returns for the same year?

I've found who I believe to be the Hollylees in 1861 indexed as Hollbee. The names and most dates tally but they have included their son Frederick. I also
have another 1861 return with a Frederick J Holylee staying with I assume,his
grandparents. Mother's maiden name York. Once again the dates tally. I've looked in the BMD and there is only one Frederick James for 1851 and no Hollbees. Could he somehow have been registered twice?

Thanks
Thisby

[arthurk]

I wonder if I can ask about something thats puzzling me. Is it possible that someone could be registered on two different census returns for the same year?

Yes, it did happen, and I have a case very similar to yours. Child at grandparents', so (correctly) enumerated there. Parents misunderstand instructions and list all usual occupants, rather than just those who were actually there on census night. I'm sure there are other possible scenarios, but this is probably one of the most common, and I expect others can come up with numerous examples of this kind of thing.

Arthur

[suedent]

I agree with Arthur, I've come across this a few times, for example in 1901 I have one relative supposedly at home with her mother in Liverpool and also in Cornwall staying with her grandparents.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

There are two entries in the 1901 census, for my husband's Gt. Grandfather. He is listed as being in the family Pub, but he's also listed as being at home with his step-mother.

I shall never know if he was working or skiving! ;)

My son-in-law was travelling by car, on a motorway, at midnight on the date of the last census, so what did my daughter do?

Yes, you guessed ...... she listed him as being at home with her! :D

[Thisby]

Thanks very much for your replies. I thought I had made an error and my instincts had let me down. (The surname was spelt incorrectly again).

There are so may ifs and buts with family searching but that's half the fun, especially when you find someone you've been searching ages for and they turn
up in an unexpected place or places as the case may be.

Perhaps in 100 years time Diane's decendents will be surprised to see her son-in-law's name on the cenus returns, despite his not really being at home.

Thanks again

Thisby

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Perhaps in 100 years time Diane's decendents will be surprised to see her son-in-law's name on the cenus returns, despite his not really being at home.

Thanks again

Thisby

Actually, when I told my daughter that she had officially broken the rules |scold|, her reply was, "Well, I know how frustrated you are, because you can't find someone in 1871 ...... so I thought I wouldn't do that to any future *amateur sleuths!*"

She has a point I suppose? I wonder if my Mary Ann was hitching a lift in 1871? ;)

[Thisby]

That's what I call a considerate daughter-in-law.

I wish my forebears had thought "Perhaps in a 100 years someone will want to know all about us so we will all stay at home on census night, be very precise and write down all the information in handwriting that can be read, and not tell porkies"

Still it would be all to easy then.

Now I can just see your Mary Ann standing by the way, showing a flash of ankle to the approaching hansom cab driver.