why oh why can anyone help

[brum]

Hi Can Anyone Tell Me Why I Cant Find My Nans And Her Family On Any Of The Census Could She Have Been In A Work House Could Anyone Help Thanks Brum.......................

[Lindad]

Give us some details! Who are you looking for... and where do you think they were living and when???

[Phil]

I am the same Brum. My grandfather was born in Ireland and the story goes brought up by and aunt. No trace of anything before the 1901 census.

I know it's no comfort but keep your chin up!

Regards

Phil

[Ken Boyce]

By nans I assume you mean granmother - probably because she was born after 1901 Have you tried other refs besides the Census

[Peter Goodey]

I'm afraid nobody here can answer that question unless you get back to us and tell us exactly what you know and why you're stuck. Include names and dates.

[brum]

Hi All And Thankyou Very Much For Your Offer Of Help And Boy Do I Need Some Help
I Am Looking For Is
John Devey
Wife Annie Devey
Daugther Polly Devey Born 1890 Polly Not Short For Anything
They Were Living At 13 Trinity Street West Bromwich In 1890 When Polly Was Born
Just Cannot Find Anything On The Census
I Found My Nan Birth Ceifc But Thats All
Once Again Thankyou Brum.........................

[Phil]

Hi All And Thankyou Very Much For Your Offer Of Help And Boy Do I Need Some Help
I Am Looking For Is
John Devey
Wife Annie Devey
Daugther Polly Devey Born 1890 Polly Not Short For Anything
They Were Living At 13 Trinity Street West Bromwich In 1890 When Polly Was Born
Just Cannot Find Anything On The Census
I Found My Nan Birth Ceifc But Thats All
Once Again Thankyou Brum.........................


On birth certificate what is the father's occupation?

Phil

[brum]

Hi phil
its say he was a general laborer thanks brum.......................

[Jo Simpsons]

I have been trying to find the family. I have ancestry and have been going through each page, with no luck as yet. I initially started in the South West and then have gone on to North East. |shocked| ( another meaning!) at geography! Can anyone say or know anything about the enumeration districts on Ancestry. A gap between them would that suggest it hasn't been done? It jumps from 13 to 21. Just a thought seeing as they don't seem to be about.

Jo

[Jo Simpsons]

Sorry should have said I was looking at 1891.

Jo

[Peter Goodey]

"Can anyone say or know anything about the enumeration districts on Ancestry. A gap between them would that suggest it hasn't been done?"


They're the same as anyone else's enumeration districts, I would imagine :)

Which piece are you talking about?

[Jo Simpsons]

|laugh1|
I'm not sure if that was meant to be funny but it reads it, to me.
I was looking at 1891 West Bromwich, it was showing, west Bromwich North East, South West and Bakewell. North East jumps from 13 to 20. Trinity Road was showing for South West, and only going by the "Old Maps" I really have no idea of the area. Should do, as my relatives have come from around that area.
Thanks though,
Jo

[brum]

Hi all
i know it sounds funny beens i cant find mine relatives and some of you are having trouble i just dont know i think they went missing i dont care if they were in jail or a work house so long has i could find them lol
hi jo again dee.........................

[Jo Simpsons]

Oh I didn't mean you or your relatives, Brum :)

I meant how Peter wrote
"They're the same as anyone else's enumeration districts, I would imagine :) "
I found it funny, but I have a strange sense of humour.
Chin up Brum you will get there in the end. Did you look up at the marriage for John and Ann Duffield in 1887 by the way?
Jo :)

[Pam Downes]

John Devey
Wife Annie Devey
Daugther Polly Devey Born 1890 Polly Not Short For Anything
They Were Living At 13 Trinity Street West Bromwich In 1890 When Polly Was Born ...

I have to say that as soon as I saw the suname I thought - this one's going to be trouble. There are just SO many opportunites for mistranscription -Davy, Davey, Devy, Dewy, Dewey, Darey, Daney, Deney, Dovey, Dorey, Dory, Doney, Duvey, etc etc, so I tried to get Polly on the 1891. I 've tried just Polly (no other details except age) 3.12 upwards to a year, then aged 1 and, in desperation, 2.
Have just realised that I haven't tried Dolly, so will have a go at that one.

Coming forward in time Brum, where did your nan marry and is she called Polly on her marriage certificate? I think we are going to need every last scrap of detail you have (including what you had for tea :D ) to crack this one.

Pam Downes

[Pam Downes]

Sorry, should have said that I didn't look at every single page for Polly, but I looked at the surnames and then looked at any likely ones. i.e. I didn't look at Polly Smith for example.

Pam Downes

[brum]

Hi
Yes I Did Jo Its A Poss It May Be Them I Just Dont Know Has I Got No Info On That Marriges
Pam Are You Ready For This Now You Thought You Were Confussed You Be Even More Confussed I Think I Confussed Poor Jo Lol She Has Also Kindly Been Trying To Help Me
Well Frist My Nan (polly) Married A William Jennings In 1908 In Staffordshire Which I Found Now Her Maiden Name On There Was Spell Davy Instead Of Devey Which I Look Up On The Census The Name Davy But Nothing .AND YES SHE WAS CALL POLLY ON THERE AND ON HER BIRTH CEFIC.
THIS WHAT I CANT UNSTAND I FOUND THEM BUT NO RECORD OF ANYTHING MORE ???????
Then She Was Marry To A Harry Green In The 20s But I Dont Known When Harry Was My Grandfather The One I Want To Find But No Luck So You See What A Head Ach I Am Having Lol
And We Had Meat Pie For Dinner
Well You Did Say
May I Say Again Thankyou All For Helping Me You All Most Kind
Brum.........................

[brum]

I Know You Never Mean Anything I Never Thought You Did
I Got A Funny Sense Of Hummour Has Well You See Me When Looking For My Nan I Keep Saying To Her You Dont Want Me To Know My Husband Thinks I Gone Daft What I Mean I Dont Care What They Did So Long Has I Can Find Out About Them You See My Nan Die When I Was 5 And She Never Spoke About Anything Not To My Mom Her Daugther If Only They Did Hey Bye For Now Brum...............

[Pam Downes]

We had meat pie yesterday - butter-enriched pastry (shop-bought as I can't cook), but it's very interesting to know that nan married in Staffordshire. As she was born there, it leads me to think that she probably lived in Staffs from birth to (first) marriage. May well be wrong but it might help in narrowing down the search.
Are the names on the birth and marriage certificates typed, or hand-written? And if hand-written, is it the original, a copy of the original or just one that the GRO issued by wrote out by hand? Just trying to work out why you are so adamant that it's Davy on the marriage cert but Devey on the birth cert.

Pam Downes

[Jo Simpsons]

ROFLMAO
|bowdown| To you Brum! Pam did ask!
|laugh1| |laugh1| |laugh1|
Jo

[Geoffers]

Hello Brum
Having read through both this and the other thread you began on hunting for your family, I'd suggest coming about this from a different angle.

Trying to find the family on census returns (especially transcrits) is going to be difficult because of the large number of ways that DEVEY can be interpreted - you've already found one in DAVY and Pam has listed many other possibilities.

However, you do have both parents names and surnames - I'd suggest searching for their marriage - try searching under DUFFIELD as the possible alternative spellings seem more limited and should be closely grouped in the GRO index.

You want their marriage certificate for a couple of reasons, it has the age of John DEVEY and Annie DUFFIELD when they married and also has their fathers' names and occupations.

You can use this information to hunt for them on census returns, rather than Polly Devey who is obviously proving more elusive at the moment. The 1881 census is readily available on CD-rom, fiches and online and may provide more information to help you locate the family group on later census returns.

Also, I think I remember you writing that John DEVEY had died when Polly married - look for his death certificate - with any luck he may have died around 1901 - if the informant was a relative, you'll have an address and may be able to use this to locate your family on the 1901 census.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[Jo Simpsons]

I couldn't put my message on and I have doubled with Geoffers.
There is a marriage for Ann Duffield in 1887, on the same page there is a John Davy
Stourbridge 6c 135. A good possibility.
I have tried all Pollys and looking for John and Ann, there is one together born around the same area but in Leicester and no children.
Jo :)

[Geoffers]

hi geoffers
i know what you saying but i have search and search i must be doing something wrong i just cannot find a thing..........jo found a marriges between john and annie in stourbrige but i got no way of telling if its them
thanks for your tips brum...

I'm afraid that it is a case of searching the GRO index of marriages, beginning from the birth of Polly and working backwards in time for several years, trying to locate all and any entries where a John DEVEY/DAVY/DAVEY married an Ann/ie DUFFIELD/DUFFELD/DUFFELL (and any other variants you can think of). It can take a l-o-n-g time, but then it isn't a race. If you find mroe than one marriage you may have to work through a process of elimination by comparing them against othe records such as census returns.

The entry that Jo found seems to me to be very promising and worth your further investigation, if only to eliminate it!

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[Jo Simpsons]

Brum, you are not doing anything wrong! :) You just have a difficult name that could be transcribed so many ways and so easily read wrong.
It's all a big jigsaw you have to put together. You may get a bit in from another jigsaw but it will all fit eventually, you just take out the wrong piece! It's all trial and error. You can't prove it is right or wrong till you have more info. But this little bit, the marriage, could be your outside edge! :) Either that or go through all the parish records in the archives in the areas till you find John and Ann Duffield getting married.
someone may say if there is a missing part from Ancestry too, would explain a lot.
Don't worry, you will get there.
You are just |banghead| at the moment. We have all been there or still are.
Jo :)

[brum]

thankyou jo for looking i know you found it befor but you can see i was trying to find them on the census frist to make sure it was them so have i got this right geffers that i send off for the marriges ceific then try and find them on the census . sorry if im comming across thick but i have found my dads side of the family bit at a time not much a little bit more then then my mom side i still new to this .i know it takes along time it just my mom side i having trouble with i know it can take a long time im in no hurry but when you search and seach and cannot find a thing .thats when i thought i was doing something wrong thanks again brum......................

[Peter Goodey]

I meant how Peter wrote
"They're the same as anyone else's enumeration districts, I would imagine :) "
I found it funny, but I have a strange sense of humour.

Thank you...I think. It what only meant to be gentle wit. I was going to see if I could sort out the missing EDs for you but thinking about it some more I probably can't.

Anyway I'm rapidly losing my grip on this thread. I had penne carbonara tonight. There, you see? I'm losing it. I think I'll go to bed....

[Jo Simpsons]

Brum, if you want to try and see what that marriage certificate says you have to order it. You can do that through the local office, sorry don't know what that would be, or order on line here
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
use the numbers that I've said. I think it is about £7.50 for a certificate. You will get an address of them both and the ages, then see if you can pick up a John or Ann at that age or area.
Jo :)

[Jo Simpsons]

:D
Now Peter I thought you were going to find where the missing ED's went not eat dinner! :)
Take some settlers first. ;) Night
Jo

[Geoffers]

I'm afraid I go on a bit here, so part 1 of a 2 part reply to avoid duplicate text.....

[thankyou jo for looking i know you found it befor but you can see i was trying to find them on the census frist to make sure it was them]

Very sensible idea, try the easiest first, but having done that without success, I think you need to work at it from a different angle.

[so have i got this right geffers that i send off for the marriges ceific then try and find them on the census]

That's the basic idea. Of course, the entry that Jo has found may not be your John + Ann. As I mentioned, it is worth spending a little time at a record centre or at an online site, searching the GRO index of marriages to see how many couples of the same name appear to have married in say, the 10 years prior to Polly's birth (if they married before then, they should appear as a couple on the 1881 census). You may be lucky and there is just one.

Let's suppose for the sake of argument that the index entry Jo has found is the only DAVY/DUFFIELD marriage that you can locate. From their marriage certificate you will have names, ages, occupations, addreses, fathers' names and occupations and names of witnesses - and all not too long before 1891.

continued........

Geoffers

[Geoffers]

part 2 of 2 part reply......

Try to find them first on the 1881 census - see if they were living in the same area as where they married.

If they were and Polly is born in 1890 not too far away, then go to the 1891 census for the area and search it, street by street checking anything that looks like DAVY/DEVEY, etc. You have their ages/occupations from the marriage certificate which will help to locate the correct entry in the 1891 census.

If you find John + Ann on the 1881 census - are they living with family and are any of the names on this census the same as the names of witnesses to their marriage? Do they turn up on the 1891/1901 census with possibly Polly (or a girl of her age) living with them?
The ages and estimated year of birth may then also help you to locate John Devey/Davy's death certificate (the GRO index of deaths includes the age). If he died around 1900-10 is he still in the same area. Does the location he died or the name/address of informant help to identify where the family may have been for the 1901 census? If John DEVEY/DAVY had died by 1901, was his widow back with her parents? - It's worth checking and you should have the names from the marriage certificate and possibly the 1881 census.

All these little bits of information add up and give you ideas as to where to look for more parts of the bigger picture.

I hope that makes sense, trouble is I know what I mean, but may not have explained myself clearly. If it is as clear as mud, please ask again.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[Pam Downes]

Hi Brum,

We're all here for you, so sit back , take a deep breath, and a large swig of something, and relax for 3 minutes. Trust me, we've all been there, done that, panicked like mad, and then the answer when we get it is so simple.
(To digress, found who I thought was my John on the 1881, his age and place of birth fitted perfectly. But his father was listed as 39, and father's wife was listed as Ann - and John's mother was Mary. Answer - look at original 1881 pages - father's age mistranscribed, he was 59, and Mary had died and dad had remarried. Took me several months to work that one out and then only because of a chance remark by someone else.)
Remember I asked earlier about whether the birth certificate was handwritten , typed, etc? The reason I asked that is because if it is typewritten or a hand-written copy it means that someone at the GRO/local register office, has looked at the record and then put what they THINK is written in the original record. To prove my point get an original census page and ask 6 people to transcribe everything on the first 10 lines. Unless the census enumerator has very clear writing there will be more than one difference.
As Geoffers has said, and I have to say that I have also come to the same conclusion after drawing a total blank on Polly, Dolly, and Molly on the census, the best plan of action now is to find the marriage of Polly's parents and get a few more clues from that.
Although the 1887 marriage does look very promising I think that I would be inclined to have a thorough look at the full GRO Index first, otherwise it it very easy to be swayed into thinking 'yes, this is the one'.
I presume Ann Duffield is the maiden name of Polly's mother as detailed on the birth certificate. (You've not actually said in any of your messages, it's in one of Jo's.)
I would actually start in June 1881 and list all names beginning DUF along with the district and the volume and page number.
Then I would look on FreeBMD for those marriages and try and 'marry' couples. Hopefully those Anns can then be found on the 1891 census and eliminated.
You can then also look on FreeBMD for John Devey, Devy, Devoy, Davy and Davey and see if any marriages of those marriages have the same district and ref number as any outstanding Dufs.
The reason I would do it this way is because of the uncertainty of John's surname - I'd leave the most difficult till last.
You can search the GRO Index online at
http://www.1837online.com/Trace2web/
pay-to-view but no more expensive than going to your county Record Office, or your local LDS FHC, plus you can enlarge the page. :)
Otherwise, as said, at the Record Office or LDS FHC.

Again, toon now is to find the marriage of Polly's parents and get a few more clues from that.
Although the 1887 marriage does look very promising I think that I would be inclined to have a thorough look at the full GRO Index first, otherwise it it very easy to be swayed into thinking 'yes, this is the one'.
I presume Ann Duffield is the maiden name of Polly's mother as detailed on the birth certificate. (You've not actually said in any of your messages, it's in one of Jo's.)
I would actually start in June 1881 and list all names beginning DUF along with the district and the volume and page number.
Then I would look on FreeBMD for those marriages and try and 'marry' couples. Hopefully those Anns can then be found on the 1891 census and eliminated.
You can then also look on FreeBMD for John Devey, Devy, Devoy, Davy and Davey and see if any marriages of those marriages have the same district and ref number as any outstanding Dufs.
The reason I would do it this way is because of the uncertainty of John's surname - I'd leave the most difficult till last.
You can search the GRO Index online at
http://www.1837online.com/Trace2web/
pay-to-view but no more expensive than going to your county Record Office, or your local LDS FHC, plus you can enlarge the page. :)
Otherwise, as said, at the Record Office or LDS FHC.

Again, to agree with Geoffers, this is not a race, so take your time, write your details NEATLY, so that when you come to check things you're not scratching your head over whether you wrote a 0 or a 6. Any more questions, just ask.

(And I know that Geoffers had said much the same thing in his last two postings but I've spend ages typing this thing out so I'm jolly well going to send it! I am actually a very fast typist , but of the Eric Morecambe variety - right keys but not necessarily in the right order :D )

Pam Downes

[Pam Downes]

|rant| |rant|
drat - 8 lines too long to avoid repetition!

Pam Downes

[Jo Simpsons]

I hope this works.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1612

This has a bit more info on of Brums family. It's from the Worcestershire forum.
Jo :)

[Pam Downes]

Thanks for that Jo. I now have (hopefully) the whole picture. I don't have reason to visit the Worcestershire forum which is why I was gaily burbling and bumbling away about stuff that was already known.
However, I am now even more puzzled about a couple of things. Because of the original info I read about West Bromwich I 'assumed' (ahem :( ) that we were talking about Staffordshire. Now Oldbury has come into the equation and according to my road atlas there are three Oldburys around - Shrops, West Midlands and Warwks.
Can anyone confirm which one we are talking about with reference to Brum? I admit to total ignorance about counties on the western side of the country - and am not much brighter about the eastern side though I can name the counties going up the coast from London to Yorkshire.
I'm also confused about Brum's statement that Polly was married in the church which was in the same street that she was born in because West Bromwich and North Harborne Smethwick don't sound the same. I know that it doesn't help that all the names have been changed since 1900 because of local government 're-organisation'.

Pam Downes
(who has now become the weakest link!)

[Jo Simpsons]

Pam, I get mixed up with the areas too, so can I jump on board with you? I think the main clue is West Bromwich. Now, sometimes I think it's in Staffordshire and others in Worcestershire. When I have been going through the census pages boundries of Smethwick, Harborne are mentioned. I looked up on old maps, Trinity Street. That gives you a few options. I was looking at Trinity Street, West Bromwich in Worcestershire. I might be in the totally wrong place!

:confused:
Jo :)

[Pam Downes]

Pam, I get mixed up with the areas too, so can I jump on board with you?
:confused:
Jo :)

Altogether now - HELP!
As previously said, I was basing my searching on the West Brom bit of the birth certificate because according to the registration districts on Genuki, West Brom the town is in Staffs, though the West Brom reg district also covers parts of Shropshire and Worcestershire.
http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/REG/sts.htm#wbro
That of course was before I knew about the Oldbury bit. When you look at the Worcester reg districts then you will find Oldbury listed under West Brom.
http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/REG/wor.htm#wbro
This means that it is the Oldbury in Worcs we're talking about.
And a further glance at the Genuki reg districts tells me that there were Oldburys in Shrops and Warwks then as now, so the Oldbury that we're talking about is in the one now designated as West Midlands.
(By-the-by, if you've not found the Genuki reg districts before
http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/REG/
I refer to them VERY frequently.)

Brum, my advice to you now is to leave us :confused: old dears to waffle away by ourselves in the corner while you go and and troll through the delights of the GRO Index. :D

Pam Downes
(still the weakest link in spite of Jo fighting me for the honour!)

[Jo Simpsons]

:eek: am I old!
jo:D

[brum]

Hi All I Cant Thankyou All Enough For All The Trouble You Have All Been To And Good Tips You All Gave Me You Are All So Kind Thankyou All Once Again
Let You All Know If I Find Anything Or Still Pulling My Hair Out Lol Brum.................................

[Ken Boyce]

What Civil Registration District and County is on the Cert The are several West Bromwich none in London

[Pam Downes]

What Civil Registration District and County is on the Cert The are several West Bromwich none in London

Er, Ken, where have you suddenly got London from in relation to West Bromwich? Jo and I are already :confused: enough trying to figure out all the Oldburys without you suddenly trying to move West Brom as well :D

I think that you will find that there is only one West Bromwich registration district, but that places from 3 counties are included in it. i.e. mainly in Staffordshire but included parts of Shropshire and Worcestershire.
http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/REG/sts.htm#wbro
http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/REG/sal.htm#wbro
http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/REG/wor.htm#wbro

Pam Downes

[brum]

Hi All I Just Look On My Nan Birth Ceifc
It Got Registration Westbromwich At The Top
And Under Its Say Birth In The Sub District Oldbury And In The Country Of Worcester Brum...............................

[Ken Boyce]

Hi Pat
Nothing sinister - I woke up after recovering from my eldest daughters marriage read the thread and saw no mention by Brum that the ref to West Bromwich was in fact a Civil Reg Dist ref.

Not being familar with the geography of West Bromwich I checked GENUKI for the West Bromwich Census Piece Listing Refs I got "not in Data Bank" which usually means there is no registration county or district with that name. I then tried a Google keyword and map search and got several different geographical refs which were confusing Also in a senior moment I could have sworn there was one in the Home Counties which I could not locate - (your explaination has now unconfused me - obviously I've been across the Pond for to long!)

But seriously many researchers get thrown by the differences in the boundaries of Civil Registration Counties and Districts and Local Government Counties and Districts. BMD Certs clearly state where the registation has taken place and should be the starting point for any lookups.

Now I'm off the check the coffers to see if I have anything left after the wedding to buy some of Rod's goodies!

[Ken Boyce]

PS
Went back to GENUKI to check on why I could not locate West Bromwich Civil Reg details and found that all inputs return "not in Data Bank" - now I know why I was unable to locate it!

[Pam Downes]

But seriously many researchers get thrown by the differences in the boundaries of Civil Registration Counties and Districts and Local Government Counties and Districts. BMD Certs clearly state where the registation has taken place and should be the starting point for any lookups.


Hi Ken,

Couldn't agree more. It took me some time to get my head round this, which is why I find the following Genuki pages invaluable.
http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/REG/
plus the four links on the page. (Scroll down to get the full benefits on the index of place-names page.)
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/CivilRegistration.html
has some other links.

And if you want to find out how much you've either forgotten, or didn't know in the first place, about BMD certificates
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/indexbd.htm

Pam Downes

[brum]

hi all
can someone tell me on my grandfather census it say brith place is donington shropshire and on his bri th cefic it say registration district is kings norton birth in the sub district is harborne in the country of staffordshire is this the same place thanks brum......

[Peter Goodey]

Donington, Salop was in the Shifnal Registration District.

What does the birth certificate give as the place of birth (NOT the place of registration)? This is in column 1 of the certificate.

[brum]

hi peter its say oldbury road smethwick