A newbie, needing lots of help

[Pam Morris]

Hi everyone
I have a whole generation missing that for two years i have been trying to trace, but ill start with my Grandmother who is as i thought
Elizabeth Margaret Bartlett Born 12th jan 1901 and thought she came from Eastbourne as she was a strict Catholic and went to St josephs catholic school in Eastbourne.She then went on to marry James Hardwick also known as Nash in Pourtsmouth registry office on 16th sept 1920 and then came back to Eastbourne
Her mother and father were Edward and Emily Bartlett and she had a Brother James Bartlett all of them i only have Death certs for them, any help please would be nice
Thanks
Pam

[Bo Peep]

|wave| Hi Pam, and welcome to the forum. Lots of really helpful people here, so hopefully, you will get some answers to help with your research.

[Pam Morris]

Thanks for the warm welcome
i hope i do get some answers i really need it
Pam

[Geoffers]

my Grandmother who is as i thought Elizabeth Margaret Bartlett Born 12th jan 1901 and thought she came from Eastbourne as she was a strict Catholic and went to St josephs catholic school in Eastbourne.

Okedoke, starting with her,do you have her birth certificate - if not do you know how to locate it, order a copy and how it will be of use to you? If 'No' please ask and I'll lead you through it.

Have you located her on the 1901 census?

She then went on to marry James Hardwick also known as Nash in Pourtsmouth registry office on 16th sept 1920

Do you have this marriage certificate?

Geoffers

[Wirral]

Hi Pam
They are a difficult lot to find! Elizabeth Margaret should turn up on the 1901 census, but I can't see her or the rest of her family. Not can I find her birth.
What was her father Edward's occupation from her marriage certificate? Did her age on her marriage certificate agree with her date of birth of 12 Jan 1901? From the death certificates, approximately when were her parents & brother born?
Geoffers beat me to it!

[Peter Goodey]

I say the same as Geoffers and Wirral. The marriage index shows her name simply as Elizabeth, not Elizabeth M. But may or may not be of any significance;). In any case you need the certificate.

Do you know when and where James was born? If the worst comes to the worst, you may find that you need his birth certificate.

[Pam Morris]

Hi
Thanks to all who have been helping me , i have no birth certs for any of them this is my problem but i just cant see that a whole family have never been registered.When Elizabeth married she was 20 and her fathers occupation was a General hawker.
Her brother James Bartett i have no birth cert but have traced him in the Army records as an officer but died in 1918 and it just says that he inlisted in Eastbourne no birth details he was about 5 yrs older than Elizabeth.
Pam

[Peter Goodey]

When you say James died in 1918, do you mean he was killed in the war?

If so, you say he was an officer but on the Commonwealth War Graves site, I can only see one James Bartlett who was an officer and his parents are completely different.

[Wirral]

Did James die in the War or after it? He seems rather young to have been an officer if his father was a general hawker. Are his parents referred to in any of his army records? What was his age at death from his army records, or have these records been destroyed? What were his rank & regiment?

Peter pipped me to the post!

[Pam Morris]

Hi
Thanks for all your help
This is what i have on James Bartlett
Company serjeant Major J Bartlett
G/3841, 17th Bn, Royal Sussex Regiment
Died on 26th Oct 1918 ,
i have just noticed on his death cert he is a lot older it states he was 31 years olds he died in a Military Hospital in Badelwyddan, St Asaph Wales it also say that B.A.Jacobs , R.A.M.C was present at death
Pam.
He also recieved the D.C.M

[Pam Morris]

I also have a newspaper enquiry into the Death of Edward Bartlett Elizabeth and James,s father stating that they all lived at 107 longstone Road Eastbourne, where Edward accidentely burnt to death the inquest was held on the 21/01/1914 , James at the time was a grocers porter both he and Elizabeth were witnesses , dont know if this is any help
Pam

[Peter Goodey]

Company Sergeant Major is not an officer.

I think you were going to give us some estimated dates of birth from the death certificates? It may help.

[Wirral]

Isn't a Serjeant Major a non-commissioned officer?

I may have found Edward. From his death in 1914 in the General Register (GRO) index, he was born about 1851.
1901 census RG13/2008 folio 16 page 23, Cold Harbour, Sherbourne, Dorset
Edward BARTLETT, head, M, 50, Hawker & general dealer, Trent [?], Somerset
Dorcas ", wife, M, 43, Yeovilton, Somerset
James ", son, S, 24, Hawker & general dealer, Sherborne, Dorset
William ", son, 4, Sherborne, Dorset

[Wirral]

Looking at the 1881 & 1891 censuses, this Edward (born abt 1851 in Trent) had a daughter Emily Rose. Could Elizabeth Margaret be an illegitimate daughter of Emily Rose, & Edward be her grandfather, rather than her father? The mother of Emily Rose was Ellen, according to the 1881 & 1891 censuses, but by 1901 she appears to have died & Edward remarried to Dorcas.

[Peter Goodey]

Isn't a Serjeant Major a non-commissioned officer?

Yes and an NCO is not an officer.

[Pam Morris]

Company Sergeant Major is not an officer.

I think you were going to give us some estimated dates of birth from the death certificates? It may help.

yes its on page one the last post
Pam

[Pam Morris]

Emily died after edward she died in 1921 in a diff addy which was dennis street eastbourne so maybe edward and emily seperated

[Peter Goodey]

How old was Emily when she died?

I wonder why Elizabeth married in Portsmouth. Some family connection? Grandparents?

[Pam Morris]

Emily Bartlett died 04/04/1921 in 83 dennis road Elizabeth was present at death thanks pete for this ur doing for me i wish there was some way i could send all this bit of evidence i have
Pam

[Pam Morris]

Emily was 53 years when she died
Pam

[Wirral]

I've just re-read your original message. Your grand-mother was a strict Catholic, but she got married in a Registry Office, not a church. In Liverpool, that often means that there was also a church wedding somewhere. Where were subsequent children baptised? Did a marriage ceremony take place at the same church? Were all her children brought up as RC? Sometimes the priest will make a note about which parish the participants originally come from. Or in the baptism register there may be a note in the margin listing who, when & where they married. If Elizabeth Margaret really was born in January 1901, then she would have been 19 when she married in September 1920, not 20. If her date of birth of 12 Jan 1901 is taken from her death certificate (& there is no further written evidence to back it up), then that is only as reliable as the knowledge of the person who registered her death.

The only 2 possible births I can find on FreeBMD are:
Elizabeth Maggie BARTLETT born Dec Q 1895 Weymouth 5a 293.
Elizabeth May V. BARTLETT born March Q 1901 Southampton 2c 29.

[Pam Morris]

i just dont know enough but i think she may have told a lie about her age on her marriage cert i think she was 19 but it was portsmouth not liverpool, i would have imagined they were all catholics as her mother emily had a catholic burial
Pam, but they were all living together as i mentioned on page 2 about a death inquiry in longstone road were there father burt to death and his children james and Elizabeth were witnesses on the 21/01/1914 and my grandmother said they were all catholics, but not on any registers anywhere
Pam

[Pam Morris]

Elizabeth me her to be husband James Hardwick and it was him who came from portsmouth
Pam

[Wirral]

I mentioned Liverpool, because that is where I come from & do most of my research. It has a large RC population & lots of intermarriages between the faiths. Generally, if you were RC you got married in the bride's local RC church & that is where the children would be baptised. If you were a strict catholic you would take Holy Communion at Mass, but you can only do that if you have been baptised into the Church. And getting married in the Church would mean more than getting married in the eyes of the Law. If there was no church wedding, then the couple would be seen as unmarried by the Church. I do not know if the priest would baptise the children. Was there any reason why the marriage could not take place in church? Had James Hardwick been divorced?
It seems very odd if the family say they are catholics but are not on any registers anywhere. Have you tried looking in the registers for the church your grandmother attended?

[Pam Morris]

our local catholic church in Eastbourne has no entries for either Elizabeth or James bartlett for a baptism but they definatley went to catholic school, but not knowing if they were born in Eastbourne for sure i havent checked any other records.There was no reason for them to get married in a registry office i would have thought my my Grandmother would be upset , unless she was pregnant or something
Pam

[Pam Morris]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b90/pammorris/ScannedImage.jpg

[Pam Morris]

gosh soz if that too big but its the enquiry into the death of my grandmother Elizabeths father Edward Bartlett and if u read thru the whole family are living together thats dated 21st jan 1914
Pam

[Geoffers]

i have no birth certs for any of them this is my problem but i just cant see that a whole family have never been registered.

It happens.......but........

When Elizabeth married she was 20 and her fathers occupation was a General hawker. Her brother James Bartett i have no birth cert but have traced him in the Army records

Have you checked to see if her dad was in the military and if his children appear in the military indexes of birth as opposed to the GRO?

Geoffers

[Wirral]

There was no reason for them to get married in a registry office i would have thought my my Grandmother would be upset , unless she was pregnant or something
Pam
How soon after the marriage was the birth of your grandmother's first child?
Although Elizabeth Margaret was brought up as the daughter of Edward & Emily, it is possible that she is not their daughter, There is another thread on the go at the moment on one of these forums about children being brought up by grandparents as their own children.

If James was 31 when he died in 1918, then he was born in abt 1887. That would make him at least 13 years older than Elizabeth Margaret, not 5 years older. Are you sure that Serjeant Major J. Bartlett is your James, the brother of Elizabeth Margaret? Do you have James's medals in the family or other documentation/family history? Have you looked in the local paper for news of his death? If he was awarded the DCM then it is likely there is an obit for him. Maybe if you can find out where & when he was born, then you can work forward to find Elizabeth Margaret's birth and baptism.

[Peter Goodey]

Are you sure that Serjeant Major J. Bartlett is your James, the brother of Elizabeth Margaret?

Good point. For a wartime recruit to reach CSM sounds like suspiciously good going to me ;)

[Peter Goodey]

Plenty of good suggestions. I'll throw in a couple...

Consider the possibility of a change of surname eg through remarriage.

If desperate, it might be worth searching for James' army papers among the 'burnt documents' in WO 363 at the National Archives (20-25% chance of success). Place of birth should be shown.

Now I'll leave you all to it for a week and hope to see it all cracked on my return.:D

[Pam Morris]

Thanks guys for all your help heres a piece i found on the millitary web site , and the other letter is one of many that was sent to my grandmother after james died, and yes i have all the medals .You mention an obit do you mean in my local paper in Eastbourne, also on the letter above it states he is in the new years honours gazette , do you know where i find this , anyway thankyou once again for all you have tried to do, you can see now why it has taken my two years to search, maybe ill give it a rest lol
Pam

[Pam Morris]

Just one last thing im sure he has lied about his age as i have a photo he sent my grandmother when he first entered the army he looks so young hes carrying a drum, it states he died aged 36 in 1918 that means he entered the army in 1914 aged 32 as a little drummer boy it doesnt tally, my gran always said he was about 19 when he died.
Pam
P.S ill leave us in peace now, but thanks once again for all your suggestions.

[Wirral]

Hi Pam
I think you've post the obit about Edward twice, rather than the piece from the military website & the letter.
Are there any notes or letters with the DCM medal that you have? I would have thought that for such a high award that there would be something in the local newspaper. Try the local library near to where the family were living.

[Pam Morris]

oops sorry when i look at the post it shows the letter and the piece from the millitary site but this is what the letter says
Headquarters,
24th Division
27th January 1918
3841
Sergt J Bartlett
Royal Sussex Regiment

I am very pleased to see that
your devotion to duty has been recog-
nised by the award of the Distinguished
Conduct Medal in the New Year's Honours Gazette,
and offer you my heartiest congratulations

Major General,
commanding 24th Division.

Where do i find the new years honours gazette
Pam

[arthurk]

Where do i find the new years honours gazette
Pam
The site to go to is Gazettes Online - http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ - choose London Gazette and use the search engine. The original version of the site is a bit clunky, but there's a new one in beta testing (link lower down the page), and in spite of warnings, it seemed to work reasonably well.

In case you have problems, I've found the entry in Issue 30450 published on the 28 December 1917, page 57. You can enter some or all of that in the search engine to narrow down the results. I'm not sure it tells us any more than you already know, but I'm sure you'll want to check for yourself.

Arthur

[Pam Morris]

oh wow thanks for that Arthur, i no it was only a little piece but it was something
thanks pam
oh i have also paid for a search at my local library which wirrell suggested , so thanks guys and ill get back to you with some answers and more help lol
Pam

[Fagin2005]

Pam
It would seem to me that he joined a Territorial unit before regular army and then possibly extended to WW1 service.

It was common for men to be in the Territorials at theat time and i have found several attestation forms for rellies of mine up to the Boer War.

But one needs to go to Kew as the records prior to WW1 are not on microfilm but the original forms are stored in boxes by regiment and then alphabetically.

there are excellent copying facilities in the reading room and also camera stands if you take your own digital camera.

regards

[Pam Morris]

Hi Guys
Just an update, my local offices in Lewes have searched for an obit on James Bartlett and Guess wot.......................... they couldnt find a thing lol, think ill give up on them now thanks for all your help, just put it down to one of lifes mysteries.
Pam

[Pam Morris]

oh thanks for that suggestion Fagin
but at the mo with two young children ill have to leave visisting kew for a bit, wot makes u think he could have been in the teritorials, is it just a standard thing .
Pam

[Fagin2005]

Hi Pam
On my last visit to Kew i spent a long time researching various military records looking initially for WW1 service docs....in scanning through many of these it struck that a huge percentage of them had had militia service in their local area declared on the attestation forms. So i spent more time looking through other surnames and found this to be quite consistent.

As i could not find my rellies in the WW1 series i then gambled and called up the local Militia records and i found my grandfather and my gt uncle's attestation papers and their service records.....i was looking for a Boer War connection as an aunt of mine was called Florence Ladysmith......my gt uncle served in the Boer War.. he was in the militia but had agreed to overseas service.....then i realised that the militia nad regulars were mixed up in the boxes and that the archive title of Militia was not quite correct....i went back a period and lo and behold i found my grandfather's attestation papers and service record and medical history..he bought himself out just before he got married....he is still problematic in that in the 1901 census he is noted as an "Army Invalid" then i found a Silver War Badge in a drawer at home that was with my other (maternal) grandfather's WW1 medals and my mother knew nothing about it at all....so i traced the owner via the number stamped on the back of it and it was issued to my paternal grandfather...so i got the medal roll for the SWB from Kew and this showed that he enlisted in WW1 and was medically discharged 8 months later. I also know that he received a small army pension before his death and that my Gran continued to receive it until her death...but i cannot find any record of this pension as ancestry.co.uk has lately released pension records from WW1 and everyone on the page of his SWB medal roll bar him and one other have had their service documents released including all the griff on the pension awards etc..

It continues to be a mystery as to what happened to his documents etc....there was one messy archive that i did not have time to look through that has all the medical board documents for those medically discharged to pension before 1913 but it is arranged by the date of the board and that i do not know...but if he received a pension due to invalidity in 1901 the records must be there...so next time i go there i will concentrate on that archive.

also looking through the ancestry database on ww1 pension records one sees also a high percentage of soldiers who had declared to have been in the Militia prior to enlistment, or were in the Militia and converted to a short term regular service agreement for the duration of the war.

I have also seen in that collection that the original Militia attestation papers were sometimes bundled with the WW1 attestation papers.

regards

[dawn/karen]

can i just add that the hospital you mentioned is still up and running but on the nhs!! i was there approx 5 yrs back with my brother in laws mum in there, its a grim place and difficult to get to,