Parents or Grandparents? Illegitimacy cover up?

[Wilkes_ml]

I posted this in the Scottish section, but I'm not after actual details relating to him, just a general discussion on whether a cover up is likely.

This isn't really a problem as such - maybe just my over active imagination just looking for a skeleton in the closet when there isn't one!

My great grandfather Robert Neillance Brown Bremner's birth was registered in March 1874 under the name of just Robert Bremner. But he later used the name Robert Neilance Brown Bremner consistantly. At the time of Robert's birth, his mother Isabella was 41-42 , so it's not impossible that she was his mother.

However, when Robert was born, his eldest sister, Margaret was 16, and a year later when just 17 she married a 36 year old Robert Neillans Brown who was a widow with 2 children.

So, how likely is it that Margaret was actually my great grandfather's mother and Robert Neillans Brown was his father?

Is it more likely that my great grandfather was given the additional names when christened? Maybe Robert Neillans Brown was a family friend. I have yet to find any christenings - I only have the Scotland Peoples Birth entries so far.

May be I am just jumping to conclusions here, but I have seen it before in another family where a young daughter got herself "in the family way" and the child was brought up by her parents as if the child was theirs. In large families it was not unusual to "hide" illegitimate children in this way.


My great grandfather left Scotland between the age of 16 and 25 and moved nearly 600 miles to the London area, leaving his family and friends behind in Scotland. He only returned with his wife and children for a few years before returning to Kent. I can not find any reason why he moved to England.
Any views would be welcomed

Thanks,

Michelle

[A Lee]

Obviously, in this game you have to keep an open mind about everything. And you can't be sure of anything really unless you have documented proof.

However, it was not at all unusual for grandparents to raise grandchildren as their offspring in the situation of illegitimacy. I have heard that middle names can sometimes be a clue to the actual father.
My personal OPINION - and it is just that! - is that in your situation it could be quite likely. However, I would suggest you try and root around for every available document and record you can get hold of to try and prove this theory.

I have a situation in my family history where we can not find the father at all and we are trying to discover his identity. It is very easy to jump to conclusions and probably create situations that were not there!

Good luck:D

Alison

[Wilkes_ml]

Thanks for your reply.

All I can hope is that he is mentioned in a will of Robert Neillans Brown or Margaret Urquhart Brown, who I suspect to be his parents. It's just a case of finding out whether they left one.

I'm not sure what other documentation could possibly prove it.

Is it worth the time and effort following the Brown family? Maybe another Brown family member may have left a will. Unfortunately locating Brown records in Edinburgh could be tricky!

Update:

If Margaret had of been Robert Nielance Brown Bremner's mother, would she have been likely to have named the child herself? Robert Neillans Brown already had a son also called Robert Neillance Brown born 3 years earlier in 1871 by his first wife. It looks like his first wife passed away in 1874, so if my great grandfather was his son, then he must have taken advantage of Margaret whilst he was still married! Margaret would have only been sixteen, but would she have named her son after his father, knowing that he already had a son with that name?

Sounds complicated to me!

[Oates]

Have you found a baptism record for Robert jr? Sometimes they can give different information to the birth certificate although the family probably wouldn't have been too keen to admit that to the church. Also, does he move in with Margaret after she gets married perhaps?

I think it's very likely Robert Neillans Brown is the father. Why else would he use that full name? Having said that though, my great grandmother, the youngest girl in her family, had 'Collins Knowles' as middle names. Apparently these were just people her father met travelling or through his work.

There is a possibility, less likely but still possible, that Isabella is the mother and she had an affair with RNB. Margaret knew him through that and fell in love with him herself. Or perhaps the marriage may have been a cover up in itself, to counter any rumours of an affair between Isabella and Robert.

Still, the most likely explanation is that Margaret was his mother. For proof, you could look for records made at a later date which name his parents, for example, marriage and possibly death records and wills.

[susan-w]

When did Isabella die? If she died leaving a young son (Robert), perhaps Margaret and Robert senior adopted Robert Junior. Then he was so grateful that he regarded Robert Snr as his father, and took on his name.

Also, perhaps you could try DNA testing. Not sure about this (despite being a biologist!), but could you compare DNA of male descendents, if there are any.

Cheers
Sue

[Wilkes_ml]

oooh! Now that is something I hadn't thought of! Oates - You are imaginative - but if Isabella was the mother and Robert Neillans Brown was the father, I don't think she would have fessed up about it!! But Robert Neillans Brown was only a few years younger than Isabella - so she may have been tempted!

The problem is Robert Bremner gave his father as John Bremner when he married in 1899. He used the name Robert Neillance Brown Bremner in 1899 - I did wonder if he was told after John had died, but no, John (Isabella's husband) died in 1900.

Robert Neilance Brown Bremner died 1929 in Dartford, Kent and the English death certificates are no where near as informative as the Scottish, so there are no parents names listed ( as with the Scottish ones).

Scottish wills are only covered up till 1901 on the Scotlands People Website. John Bremner didn't leave a will, Robert Neillans Brown died in 1915 and Margaret died in 1921 so until I get to Scotland I can't look for their wills (if they left one).

I've got to locate Scottish baptisms, as only births are online after 1855 and baptisms pre-1855 are on line. I'm guessing that baptisms did continue after the introduction of civil registration but they are not at Scotland's People website.

Thanks very much for everyone's input - kind of confirmed what I thought - circumstantial evidence only at the moment, but not enough to be proven beyond reasonable doubt!!!!

[Bitza]

My great grandfather was born out of wedlock, on his marriage and death certificate he names John Currie as his father but I was unable to find a birth record for him. It took me ages to solve the problem. His mother had 4 children to her husband who sadly died in 1854 and left her a pauper. I found her in the 1861 census record living with her 2 younger children from her marriage, another son with a different surname and a lodger named John Currie, 3 years later my great grandfather was born, so I looked for his birth record under his mother's maiden and married names and I found it! He went through life as a Currie yet that was never the name given on his birth certificate. I am now left to wonder whether to try and trace this John Currie as my great great grandfather or just leave it as an illegitimate birth.

Bitza

[Mary Young]

I am now left to wonder whether to try and trace this John Currie as my great great grandfather or just leave it as an illegitimate birth.

Looks good to me - go for it, girl. ;)

[Wilkes_ml]

At the moment I really do not have any proof to suggest that Robert Niellans Brown was the father, but I looked into his family a bit - maybe his parents left wills and may name Robert Neillance Brown Bremner as their grandson?

So it is definitly worth looking into the "probable" father's family.

However, in my case, Robert Neillans Brown's father originated from "England" !! So I might not get very far with that line!

[hyatt]

I have learnt that anything is possible
whilst searching for further information about an illegitimate relative, I thought his marriage certificate might give some further details about his un named father....and instead of his mothers name he had her parents as HIS parents..........I am unsure if his family are aware of this change of parents....sadly I cant locate his death to see which "mother" is named.
so instead of clearing up who his father is we are now wondering about who his mother is...
"

[Wilkes_ml]

ah! I had forgotten about this thread I started! What I now realise is that my great grandfather Robert Neilance Brown Bremner was born on 4th or 10th March 1875 (not 1874 as I originally wrote) and registered 24th March 1875. And his sister Margaret married Robert Neillans Brown on the 12th March 1875.

So I now think it was highly improbable that she would have married 8 days (or 2 days) after giving birth, and that she would have given her child up within 12 days of getting married!

Doh! I should have double checked the dates!!

But it would have been an interesting story!!