Jemima Cleal

[Annie]

I am trying to find the father of Jemima Cleal!
On the 1871 census Jemima is aged 7 and living with her mother Ann Cleal head of household but noted as married not widowed. From Jemima's marriage cert her father's name is Harry Cleal shoemaker and not deceased in 1886.
Any help gratefully received

Annie

[WaltonAus]

Hello Annie, On the LDS 1881 census I found this record.

John HANSFORD Head M 32 Kingston Russell, Dorset, Dairyman
Mary A. HANSFORD Wife M 24 Bradpole, Dorset, Dairyman's Wife
Lilian G. HANSFORD Daur 9 m Kingston Russell, Dorset,
Mary A.NORMAN Serv U 19 Lambert Castle, Dorset, Dairy Maid Domest. Ser
Jemima CLEAL Serv U 17 Beaminster, Dorset, Dairy Maid Domestic Ser

Source Information:
Dwelling Dairy House
Census Place Kingston Russell, Dorset,
Family History Library Film 1341510
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 2113 / 85
Page Number 12
-------------------------
from this it would seem that (this) Jemima was born in Beaminster. I don't know wheter this helps at all.
-------------------------
On BVRI I found this family. I am posting it since the mother is Ann & the father is Henry which can sometimes be interchangeable with Harry and also the fact that the above Jemima was also born in Beaminster.

CLEAL, Benjamin Chr 1861 Dors Beaminster
CLEAL, Charles Jacob Chr 1861
CLEAL, Joseph Chr 1861
CLEAL, Susan Jane Chr 1861
CLEALL, Albert John Chr 1863
Parents:
Father:Henry Richard CLEALL
Mother:Anne Hallson


Kind Regards
Peter Euston

[Trish]

Annie, I think you've got a bit of a mystery on your hands. Peter has found an interesting connection with Henry Richard CLEAL -- I think he's onto something... On the 1871 census, Henry's wife is named Mary Jane but on the 1861 census his wife is Ann H.

Census: 1861: RG9/1`365 Folio 19 Page 10
Address: Gerards Green, Beaminster, Dorset
-- Henry Richd CLEAL Head Mar 28 Cordwainer born Dorset Beaminster
-- Ann H. do Wife Mar 27 born do Netherbury
-- Harry Cleal HODDER Son 8 Scholar born do do
-- Elizabeth A. CLEAL Daur 7 do born do do
-- Susan Jane do do 5 born do Beaminster
-- Joseph do Son 4 born do do
-- Benjamin do do 10 mo. born do do

Census: 1871: RG10/1881 Folio 84 Page 22
Address: 3 Brittania [sic] Row, Swindon, Wiltshire
-- Henry Richard CLEAL Head Mar 38 Cordwainer born Beaminster Dorset
-- Mary Jane Do Wife Mar 37 born " "
-- Joseph Do Son 14 Shop Assistant born " "
-- Benjamin Do Son 9 Scholar born " "

Did Henry leave Ann for Mary Jane? Also, who is Harry Cleal HODDER?

Good luck with this one!

Trish

[Trish]

Annie,

FYI... There is a FreeBMD death record for Ann Halson CLEAL, 64, in the 4th quarter of 1898 in Beaminster. [Volume 5a Page 213]

Regards,
Trish

[Annie]

Thank you Peter and Trish
since I posted this back in 2004 I moved the Cleal's into the "Don't touch with a barge-pole" file.

On the 1871 census Jemima is at home with mum Ann, who is married not widowed, William aged 2 in Netherbury.
On the 1891 census Ann is a widow. Henry Richard Cleal is alive and living in Yeovil in 1891, though he is a widower.
There is a Harry Cleal on the 1851 census living in Poole.

Perhaps it's time to trawl through the census again...

[Annie]

or perhaps not!
The Harry Cleal from the 1851 census may be a non-starter too, he seems to be alive and well in Beaminster with his wife Sarah on the 1891 census

[Trish]

or perhaps not!

The Harry Cleal from the 1851 census may be a non-starter too, he seems to be alive and well in Beaminster with his wife Sarah on the 1891 censusWell, I can understand why you moved this one into the "barge pole" file, Annie!

I'm sure you've considered the possibility that Ann and Harry/Henry were still married but living apart. I imagine it wasn't all that uncommon for a man to leave his wife and "take up" with another woman whom he would report as his spouse to the census-takers. Meanwhile, the "real" wife likely reported her status as "married" -- because she still was!

There was probably a social stigma attached to being separated or divorced in those days and so many women reported themselves as married or widowed rather than single -- especially if there were children in the household.

The 1861 census record for Henry Richard and Ann H. CLEAL is pretty interesting, don't you think? The father's occupation matches what Jemima gave on her marriage certificate. Maybe Ann [1861] and Mary Jane [1871] are the same person but the only common point is their age.

Now that, ahem, Peter has stirred things up again with his response to your 2004 message, I bet you're once again itching to get to the bottom of this mystery!

Trish

[Annie]

Annie, I think you've got a bit of a mystery on your hands.

Census: 1861: RG9/1`365 Folio 19 Page 10
Address: Gerards Green, Beaminster, Dorset
-- Henry Richd CLEAL Head Mar 28 Cordwainer born Dorset Beaminster
-- Ann H. do Wife Mar 27 born do Netherbury
-- Harry Cleal HODDER Son 8 Scholar born do do
-- Elizabeth A. CLEAL Daur 7 do born do do
-- Susan Jane do do 5 born do Beaminster
-- Joseph do Son 4 born do do
-- Benjamin do do 10 mo. born do do

Also, who is Harry Cleal HODDER?

Good luck with this one!

Trish

just to add yet another mystery to it,
Henry Cleal married 1849 Sep Bridport
One of the many names on this sheet is Ellen Hodder

|banghead|

[Trish]

just to add yet another mystery to it,
Henry Cleal married 1849 Sep Bridport
One of the many names on this sheet is Ellen Hodder

|banghead|Arghhh! So, if one assumes this is the same Henry as the Henry Richard CLEAL in 1861 and that he had first married Ellen HODDER in 1849 -- when he was about 16! -- and that, say, she had died and he had remarried -- to Ann H. -- by 1861.... why is the son named Harry Cleal HODDER and not Harry Hodder CLEAL???? Why?

There are a number of HODDERs associated with Netherbury [where Harry Cleal HODDER was reportedly born] in the 1851 census including an Ann HODDER born there about 1836.

What a puzzle. I think I'm hooked...

Trish

[Annie]

welcome Trish, there's an empty locker in the corner and the nurse will bring your sedatives regularly

[WaltonAus]

Hello Annie, I feel like I should apologize for starting this whole thing again for you. Perhaps sleeping ancestors are best left alone!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway, perhaps this time you may find the answers you are seeking.
Goog Luck & Kind Regards
Peter Euston

[Annie]

You are forgiven Peter

After a trawl through freebmd yesterday I've finally found Jemima's birth and sent off for the certificate so with a bit of luck it will narrow down the 1851 possibles.
From the baptisms you gave it looks like they had the family done as a job lot, wonder why, moved to new area perhaps?

[Trish]

You are forgiven Peter

After a trawl through freebmd yesterday I've finally found Jemima's birth and sent off for the certificate so with a bit of luck it will narrow down the 1851 possibles.

From the baptisms you gave it looks like they had the family done as a job lot, wonder why, moved to new area perhaps?Annie,

You must report back to us on the details of Jemima's birth certificate once it arrives, okay?

As for the "job lot" baptisms, you could be right about moving to a new area or there are a few other possible scenarios...

Charles Jacob was one of the children baptized in 1861 but isn't listed with the family on the 1861 census. So where is he and is his absence connected to the baptisms in some way? Maybe he was born after census day and when it came time to baptize him, his parents decided to have the older children "done" at the same time.

Or... maybe Charles was gravely ill and died before the census -- in which case, the parents decided to have all the children baptized just before he died...

Lots of room for conjecture.

I don't see a birth record on FreeBMD for Charles but there is a death record for a Charles Jacob CLEAL in 1863 in Beaminster. [Volume 5a Page 235]

Trish

[Annie]

Annie,

You must report back to us on the details of Jemima's birth certificate once it arrives, okay?


Trish

The postman must have thought he was delivering the winning lottery ticket this morning
:D
the details are:
father Henry Richard Cleal, cordwainer (so we have the right man)
mother Ann Halson Cleal formerly Hodder

think I will be spending the rest of the day sorting this one out ;)

[Annie]

The story so far:
Henry Richard Cleal born c1834 Beaminster and
Ann Halston Hodder born c1834 Netherbury had 7 or 8 children together between 1853 and 1869.

On the 1861 census they are together with 5 of the children, then on the 1871;
Ann is in netherbury with the 2 youngest, Jemima age 7 and William age 2, whilst Henry Richard is in Swindon with a different "wife" and 2 of the older boys.
I haven't found Henry Richard on the 1881 census so far.

Henry Richard died 1896 Yeovil, Ann died 1898 Beaminster
still lots to find here methinks

The marriage took place Sept quarter 1853, cert ordered :D

[Trish]

The story so far:

Henry Richard Cleal born c1834 Beaminster and

Ann Halston Hodder born c1834 Netherbury had 7 or 8 children together between 1853 and 1869.

On the 1861 census they are together with 5 of the children, then on the 1871;

Ann is in netherbury with the 2 youngest, Jemima age 7 and William age 2, whilst Henry Richard is in Swindon with a different "wife" and 2 of the older boys.

I haven't found Henry Richard on the 1881 census so far.

Henry Richard died 1896 Yeovil, Ann died 1898 Beaminster

still lots to find here methinks

The marriage took place Sept quarter 1853, cert ordered Well, what an interesting story this is turning out to be, Annie. Have you found Ann on the 1841 census? I think the following may be the right one:

Census: 1841: HO107/281/3 Page 1
Address: Clearhorn? [Clenhorn?] Mills, Netherbury, Dorset
-- Jacob HODDER 38 Ag Lab. Y [for born in same county]
-- Elizabeth Do 33 Y
-- Ann Do 6 Y
-- George Do 6
-- Susan Do 3 Y
-- Eliza Do 1 Y

But who is Richard Cleal HODDER in the 1861 census? Maybe the enumerator simply made a mistake and should have written Richard Hodder CLEAL...

You've found Henry Richard CLEAL on the 1891 census, right? -- a widower by that time, living as a boarder with a family in Yeovil.

The marriage certificate details should be illuminating!

Trish

[Annie]

Hi Trish
I think that may be the right family in the 1841 census but will sit on my hands till I get the marriage certificate.
I wonder if Harry Cleal Hodder came into this world before the wedding cake was cut? Ann being a clever lass was letting folk know who was responsible.
Looking at the 1871 again, Henry Richard must have been around until 1869 when William was born then hopped it with Mary Jane who is from the same village as Ann.
Still haven't found Henry Richard on the 1881

[Annie]

Received the marriage cert. this morning, from the information gleaned going back in time is now the easy bit.
Ann H Hodder (signed with mark) age 19 Netherbury father Jacob Hodder, shepherd
so we already have the right family in the 1841 census :D

Henry Cleal age 21 Shoemaker Netherbury father Benjamin Cleal, Plumber
had already found them in the 1841 too (no good at sitting on hands and waiting)
suppose we'll never know much about the "other woman", can't find a death for her, yet...

[maryanne]

Thank you for following up this thread, I was having problems with two Jemima Cleal's and this has solved it. Yours is the niece of mine, so I can add a line to my list as well.

If you are interested, I have been working on the line from Benjamin Cleal, Plumber, born 1805 (approx) in Yetminster who was your girls grandfather. If you want the spreadsheet, please let me know. It is nowhere near complete as I have only been working on this for less than a year.

regards

[Annie]

Hi Maryanne
Will be delighted to share any info with you though I haven't gone much further on this side, keep getting sidetracked.

[petesf]

Hi Annie,
I have a Susanna Cleall, born South Perrot, Dorset 1815 in my family tree. She married a John Follett 1812-1877 in Symondsbury Dec 23rd 1845.
These were colusins of my gt, gt grandfather Gaius Follett.
Hope this is of some use.
Peter Jon Sprake-Follett:

[Annie]

Hi Peter
Don't have a Susanna Cleall but will make a note of her just in case.
Only confirmed my husband's line back to:
Benjamin Cleal 1805 Yetminster, parents Thomas and Betty Cleal, no details on them at all

[petesf]

Hi Annie,
I notice in some of your correspondence the Surnames of Hodder and Halson. I too have many of the Hodder family in my tree dating back to Ann Hodder 1715-1773. she married my Gt, gt, gt, gt, gt Grandfather, Thomas Follett 1715-1772.
I also have many Halsons. The first being, Robert Halson c1765. He married my Gt, gt, gt, gt Grandfathers' daughter, Ann Follett in 1791.
I hope I am not confusing your search too much. If you think you're confused, I have cousins marrying cousins, all of whom had the same name - Christian as well!
Peter J S-F

[Annie]

Hi Peter
Haven't worked out where the Halston name comes into it yet.
Ann Halston Hodder was baptised in Netherbury in 1835, her parents were:
Jacob Hodder born 1812 Hawkchurch, married Elizabeth Hussey 1834.
Jacob's parents were Jacob Hodder born 1778 Marshwood, married Dinah Woodman 1797

[petesf]

Hi Annie,
I see from your last that you have Elizabeth Hussey 1834.
My Gt, gt, gt Grandfathers' brother, Robert Follett 1771-1861 married Joanna Hussey 1778-? in Symondsbury, Dorset on May 16th 1804.
Roberts' sister, Joan Follett 1784-? married John Hussey (dates unknown)
we believe that John was Joannas' brother.
I have 10 children from the union of Joan Follett & John Hussey:
Ann Follett Hussey Sept 5 1810, John Hussey Nov 20 1811, Thomas Hussey 1813, Robert Hussey 1815, Joseph Hussey 1816, William Follett Hussey 1818,
Bernard Hussey 1819, Absalom Hussey 1820, Harriet Hussey 1822, Eliza Hussey 1827.

Joanna Hussey 1778: Father - Richard Hussey 1754
Mother - Martha Dunham - Mar 9 1757

G'parents: Robert Hussey 1725 & Martha Hodder 1723

Gt, G'parents: William Hussey 1695 & Anna ?

Hope that's of some help.
Peter S-F

[Annie]

Thanks Peter
I should have made it clearer:
Jacob Hodder married Elizabeth Hussey in 1834

I will make a note of all these names and put them in the "ancestors hubby might have" file