Death of Family History Societies? [Archive] - B-G Forums sponsored by Parish Chest Ltd.

HelenVSmith

10-08-2007, 04:01 AM

I live in Australia and have been a member of Oxfordshire FH and Kent FH for many years as well as a couple in Australia. These memberships I will keep. I have served in many positions on committee in the Australian societies and have done indexing for the English ones

During the last twenty plus years I have also been a member of Devon, Folkestone, Shropshire, Warwickshire and Cornwall FHS but only for a few years in each. This was for a number of reasons:

1. I only have limited money and I also like to eat and occasionally drink.
2. I had utilised their resources that were available to me (and unfortunately as an overseas member you are often forgotten. A classic moment was when I wrote a letter asking a lookup request to one of these societies and I offered to pay for the look-up and was sent a letter that I was lazy and could easily come in and do the research myself. No offer to pay my airfare though)
3 Over the last ten years more products such as our lovely Archive CDs have become available and I have spent more money on them than I am willing to tell family.

Will the societies die? Yes some defintely will decrease, others such as Kent and Oxfordshire will go on just about forever.

Helen

Rove

10-08-2007, 04:28 AM

I'm a member of three FHS in UK

I was a member of the Victorian Family H.S. in Melbourne but had to drop out due to the very high cost of today's membership. It is more then double what it is in UK. The UK Societies send me a quarterly magazine by Air Mail and the cost of mailing these to me costs them a fair amount of money.

The Vic FHS also send out a quarterly magazine by mail but this costs them very little. I cannot afford $63 pa plus $14 joining fee. It is ridiculous.

Of course the Library / Office is in the heart of Melbourne and rent is pretty high but they dont have to be in a high rent area.

Mythology

10-08-2007, 11:04 AM

...if they offer distant members value for money... ...offered to pay for the look-up and was sent a letter that I was lazy and could easily come in and do the research myself...

And you can add me to the list of sometimes (depending which Society) far from gruntled potential distant members. If I have to go there in person to use their resources, I may as well go to the appropriate repository and look up the originals in the first place.

Furthermore (and this applies to most other outlets, not just Family History Societies), while I appreciate that there are a great many on this forum who would not share this view, if they will not sell me their products, offering only a search "service" instead, then I am not interested. I don't care how experienced the person at the other end is, they don't know my family, and they are not going to spot the same clues that I would by sitting down and reading through a baptism, marriage or burial index, for example, instead of looking for a particular name.

To avoid pointing the finger at any particular FHS, let me give a "non-FHS" example with a happy ending. London researchers will probably be aware of the "London probate index", run as a look-up service for years by Dr. David Wright.
I never used it.
Dr Wright has now started making this available on CD. :)
I don't care that it cost me £20 and it's only A-E so far - as soon as I saw it on the shelf at Kew, I grabbed it and coughed up happily. I am not rich, but neither am I mean, and if someone offers something useful that I can buy at a reasonable price, I will happily point the moths in the direction of the local council's Homeless Persons Unit.

Family History Societies take note.

Copper

10-08-2007, 11:27 AM

Mythology has summed up my feelings exactly. I don't understand why some FHS feel the need to keep transcriptions so tightly guarded.

I have done some transcribing for one society as they make it available on fiche and CD. I have a nice collection of fiche for Cambridgeshire and I am still finding distant relatives on them.

I didn't know about the "London Probate Index".

Bo Peep

10-08-2007, 11:38 AM

Mythology has summed up my feelings exactly. I don't understand why some FHS feel the need to keep transcriptions so tightly guarded.Perhaps like me, societies have had their transcriptions pirated and placed on the Internet!

Oates

10-08-2007, 01:43 PM

Furthermore (and this applies to most other outlets, not just Family History Societies), while I appreciate that there are a great many on this forum who would not share this view, if they will not sell me their products, offering only a search "service" instead, then I am not interested. I don't care how experienced the person at the other end is, they don't know my family, and they are not going to spot the same clues that I would by sitting down and reading through a baptism, marriage or burial index, for example, instead of looking for a particular name.

I was looking at my local FHS website yesterday and they have all their parish records and census transcriptions on sale. It's very cheap too - £2.50 for a booklet of either baptisms, marriages or burials for one church for a period (varies drastically - from 5yrs to 150yrs). Most of my family are in the area though so I'm fine just going to wherever the records are held.

Mythology

10-08-2007, 06:46 PM

Yes, some of them are very good - that's why I said "depending on the society". I'm not going to start a pointless "my society's better than your society :p" argument by naming names, but there are two that I'm actually still a member of.

Others seem to have a "take it or leave it" attitude, to which my answer is "OK, I'll leave it then - like various Harleian Society publications that are on the shelves at the Guildhall Library but I've purchased the Archive CD Books CDs, like the British Record Society's Archdeaconry of Sudbury wills and admons index that is also on the shelf at the Guildhall Library but I spotted on the "reduced" shelf at Kew a couple of months ago, like an awful lot of other things, I don't actually need your publications, I just buy these things for convenience, and if you don't make them available in a sensible form, you can keep them!"
(And, needless to say, the Society concerned won't get a membership fee out of me either!)

(continues - fingers tired, give me about ten minutes...)

Oates

10-08-2007, 07:00 PM

Yes, some of them are very good - that's why I said "depending on the society". I'm not going to start a pointless "my society's better than your society :p" argument by naming names, but there are two that I'm actually still a member of.

I know I was just saying what my local one does... An argument would be pointless considering I only found out about it yesterday, am not a member and have never even visited.

Mythology

10-08-2007, 07:05 PM

Guy ("A few progressive societies will expand with the new lease of life the internet provides") ("I believe that to survive FHS's have got to move with the times and embrace new technology!") are hinting at a direction which, while I still prefer to make a straightforward purchase, is something that I do not object to - provided it's done sensibly.
That is to say, if you're worried about piracy - put your stuff on the web, runs it as a subscription service with a reduced price for members and/or discount for a year's sub rather than a month, whatever - but give us the data to read through, not just some stupid useless "search" box that, for example throws a wobbly if you don't have a surname.
A search engine should never be the only means of accessing the data - if it is, then, again, you can keep it, I won't be joining your society or subscribing to your service.

(more...)

Mythology

10-08-2007, 07:08 PM

Again, an example of this - I found that one of my fellows had joined the army, *guessed* what his wife's maiden name was from the existence of a niece on a later census, whose parents marriage I had, and was *told* of a shortlived daughter who had died in Jamaica - all very woolly!

I came across jamaicanfamilysearch.com and, to be honest, the site itself looked a bit of a pig's ear in places - but I don't judge a book by its cover. It was obvious from some of the free stuff available that a lot of work had gone into this, so I crossed my fingers and stuck my neck out to the tune of 8 US dollars (about a fiver at the time) for a one month sub.
The Jamaican info that I'd been given turned out to be correct - and, better still, there was another child, with the same surname as the niece, in the same grave. The penny dropped - two sisters had married two fellows in the same regiment, and now that I knew what that regiment was, it wasn't too hard to trace the movements via the musters at Kew, and find my fellow's marriage in Ireland.
That was well worth the fiver, and if anything else crops up in that neck of the woods, I'll have no hesitation in throwing another fiver in the direction of the good lady who runs it - but if all you're going to offer me is a "stick your surname here and pray" box, forget it, I'm not interested.

Mythology

10-08-2007, 07:30 PM

And another thing...

When it comes to the sales side of things, there are some societies whose descriptions of what they are selling are so bad that I wouldn't risk buying.
"Anytown burial index £15.00" - no years stated, no idea of whether it includes nonconformist and municipal cemeteries, what sort of detail is included, etc. is just not good enough.

In such cases, I sit there looking at the screen and muttering "Do you actually want people to buy your product, or are you just turning these things out for your own amusement and so that you can boast to your friends about what a wonderful job you're doing?"

If I'm spending fifteen quid, then I want to know what I'm getting, and I should not have to e-mail you to ask for more details - if you can't be bothered to give a reasonably clear description in the first place, then I can't be bothered with getting blood out of a stone!

Naming no names, but if a certain group put a bit more effort into making their product saleable instead of devoting all their time to jazzing up the site to "attract" people based on what they read in last month's copy of "Practical Web Designer", they'd have had about sixty quid out of me - instead, I chose to leave it until I was going to the area concerned and just use the record office.

Pam Downes

10-08-2007, 08:12 PM

And another thing...
When it comes to the sales side of things, there are some societies whose descriptions of what they are selling are so bad that I wouldn't risk buying.
"Anytown burial index £15.00" - no years stated, no idea of whether it includes nonconformist and municipal cemeteries, what sort of detail is included, etc. is just not good enough.
I had a similar scenario the other week. Someone on another forum had a query. Family in the same parish on every census, FHS have published a CD of baptisms, marriages and burials for this parish. Product details say 'a full transcription of the parish registers 1559 -1881'. Um, not quite. Marriages and banns go to 1881, baptisms end in 1877, and burials in 1866. Information found by peering quite closely at a picture of the CD cover.
I wrote to the Society saying that I would be very annoyed had I bought the CD based on their product details only to find that if I wanted a 1869 burial I was going to be out of luck. Got one reasonable reply back explaining that the vicar still had the PRs and wouldn't release them. I also got another saying "This is true of almost all our records - the registers transcribed finish at a variety of dates and we have always put the overall ones. I don't intend to do anything about it - if someone wants to come up with a better solution they can!"
Nett result - I can't be bothered to recommend lady with query buys product. FHS lose a sale. And I'm having serious thoughts about buying anything from that FHS for myself. (It's not one of 'my' FHS, and anything I bought would only help with siblings of my direct line.)
Pam

Mythology

10-08-2007, 11:32 PM

"I don't intend to do anything about it - if someone wants to come up with a better solution they can!"

Yes, that's exactly the sort of "take it or leave it" attitude that really gets up my nose. The solution is blindingly obvious, isn't it? Include the same information as is on the CD cover! Presumably this is too much effort for this moron, who doesn't seem to have heard of the old saying that if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing well.

Mind you, my solution would be "Pop down to my neck of the woods and meet me at the Welsh Harp reservoir - I will bring a concrete block and show you how this can be used in solving the problem". He/she is not fit to be in any position of authority in any kind of society (Hitler Youth Movement and similar excepted) and should be quietly disposed of as a favour to the rest of mankind.

People like that seem to think that they are doing us some enormous favour by allowing us to spend our money with them, and then wonder why we don't. And he/she will probably be on some forum or other in two or three years' time, bleating about declining support for his/her shoddy outfit. And the poor transcribers (if they haven't already chucked it in because of disagreement with the management attitude) will feel that they have wasted their time because it will seem to them that nobody wants to know about their work.

Procat

11-08-2007, 01:20 AM

There are however FHS which are "moving with the times" and should survive very nicely.

For example, I am aware of one which has an excellent web site. No "you beaut whizz bang" graphics that take forever to load. Just logically set out sections including links to a large number of other societies, on-line indexes etc. They have a large number of CDs available at reasonable prices which are accurately described.

They have recently set up a message forum to which anyone (member of the society or not) can post a query. The research secretary of the society will often post a response which came from one of the indexes the society has published. This is despite the fact that they also have a paid research service.

A society with this sort of attitude certainly stands more chance of being around in 20 years time than many others.

BeeE586

11-08-2007, 02:53 AM

I have just had a bad experience with a Society which will remain nameless. I sent a large parcel of transcribed material to Society headquarters, clearly addressed 'For the attention of Mr - --------', enclosing a letter to Dear ----.

After about six weeks having had no word I wrote to ask if the parcel had arrived safely. I was then told that it had been opened by someone else at HQ, who had not bothered either to acknowledge its safe arrival or to inform Mr -----. It will be a very long time before they get anything else from me.

I belong to three Societies. One has just had its AGM - I got the Journal this morning - and in his address the President spoke on this very matter, the declining interest and falling membership in Family History Societies, and what could be done about it. This is one of the best Societies going and at least they are willing to give some thought to the problem.

Eileen

Neil Wilson

11-08-2007, 09:18 AM

Death of the FHS?

Well, as a committee member and web master of a smallest one, I can say I agree with most of what has been written.

Moving with the times. - We still sell fiche - won't move over to CD's as they think people will just copy them.

The web site has just been revamped - how difficult is that to get through a committee!

I am just putting together a 'CLOSED' forum, can't have a open one to the general public!
It has been on line for a week, to committee members only - 2 signed up, still the chairman hasn't ventured that far but he isn't sure about it. (How if he hasn't registered, he know what it looks like).

Society magazine online - now that a good idea - less postage etc. Still waiting for it to arrive by email to see if I can 'do it' yet.

On other things, we moved our meeting place because it was unsuitable (car parking) new venture - same problem, moved again - bigger venue, more parking, still getting those who moan about - yes you guess it, not enough parking (they haven't got one with their name on it!!!) You just can't win with some members.

Societies have to move with the times, the internet, digital records etc are here to stay. Fees are good in the UK, but they have to be used to keep their heads above water.

Anyway must go and get to work,

Eileen - I know you are a member of the above FHS, so mum's the word, I think I am safe from any other members or am I???

MarkJ

12-08-2007, 03:09 AM

Interesting to see you mention fiche Neil. Microfiche is great at the County Records Office or the FHS HQ, but apart from the lucky few who manage to grab an old reader from somewhere, it is a terrible format. I can understand that there is a risk of copying if they release information on cd, but - apart from printing onto reams of paper - it is the only really practical media for most of us.
As Bob Dylan said - "..the times they are a-changing!"

Mark

Pam Downes

12-08-2007, 04:55 AM

Moving with the times. - We still sell fiche - won't move over to CD's as
they think people will just copy them. I can understand that, but any FHS should be really considering putting their records on Family History Online. Nothing to stop people accessing information on behalf of a third party - but they have to pay for it first. And the way it's set up makes it quite difficult in my opinion (though I am a non-techie :) ) to obtain stuff for copying without spending quite a lot of money. Yes, the FHSs have to spend some time getting the data into the format acceptable to the site but they then get money they would not normally get because people won't buy fiche. Win win win situation as far as I can see. FHS get funds - and I get the info I want!

Society magazine online - now that a good idea - less postage etc.
Still waiting for it to arrive by email to see if I can 'do it' yet.
Great minds think alike - even if one of them is a little slower than yours, because I only thought about it yesterday when my latest FHS magazine dropped through the letterbox. Not only saves on postage, but saves members storage problems if they're like me and like to keep the magazine.

Edited to add: I do wish you hadn't used 'online' and 'email' in the same sentence, because I nearly made a right idiot of myself, because I was thinking of emailing the magazine to members as opposed to them just viewing it on the FHS website. You would probably still have to print the 'Members' interests' and send to everyone. I know a lot of Societies do an online version, but not everyone elects to go on it. Also it was bad enough waiting for a reply to an email I sent direct to a possible new cousin last year. If I'd had to wait for my 'please forward my details email' to be forwarded through the FHS I'd have been a complete wreck. :D
Pam

Neil Wilson

12-08-2007, 08:16 PM

Pam

Not in the mood to quote - sulking - my old and trusty Black and Decker started to smoke and that was that, job half done!

Anyway- family history online - It was decided before my time that they wouldn't join it, the person who transcribed most of the data says it is his and he just let the society have them on fiche (hope I got that right).

Online magazine, with password access for members only, or otherwise no one would join.

The Forum will go 'live' at the AGM, whilst I am on a train home from work. It is still not a patch on this :D

MarkJ
Sorry I know what you mean, reams of paper, then you drop it and spend the next day putting it in order.

BeeE586

12-08-2007, 10:23 PM

Death of the FHS?

Eileen - I know you are a member of the above FHS, so mum's the word, I think I am safe from any other members or am I???

Wouldn't dream of giving you away, Neil. I had to stop going to meetings because of limited parking and haven't tried the latest venue yet. By the way, this is not the Society I wrote about - your officers have always been most appreciative of any work I have done.

Eileen

Neil Wilson

13-08-2007, 08:16 PM

Wouldn't dream of giving you away, Neil. I had to stop going to meetings because of limited parking and haven't tried the latest venue yet. By the way, this is not the Society I wrote about - your officers have always been most appreciative of any work I have done.

EileenHi Eileen
I recognised that it wasn't us you were talking about. Hope you can make it to a meeting one day, the parking is doubled the last place and it will be nice to met you (I think you give a talk the last time I saw you so that is a few years ago).
all the best

BeeE586

13-08-2007, 09:07 PM

Neil

I spoke about my Russian Coachman, but had not 'met' you here or on Brett's Chatline at that time.

Eileen

Neil Wilson

14-08-2007, 07:31 PM

That's the one, before Brett's chatroom and BG forum.

An excellant talk if anyone wants to hire you

Hamlet

13-01-2008, 04:16 PM

They may be old fashioned, but they are invaluable in helping out of district members.

It may be that as more information comes on line there will be a reduction in the number of members, but then more people seem to be interested than was the case 20 years ago when I joined mine.

For people interested in the lives of their ancestors, the input from members- especial if they run a computer membership link, is untold.

Long may they prosper

Sean K

06-04-2008, 03:47 PM

I feel I have to leap in to the defence of FHS! Maybe I have had only good experiences, the Cambridgeshire FHS seem to be very organised and e-savvy and I would not hesitate re-joining when I have more time in the near future.

As someone who has built his 'tree' through visits to record offices, buying certificates and fiches, I've got very little time for people who want their information instantaneous, accurate, plus cheap (preferably free) and online. There are too many 'name collectors' online nowadays.

FHS's are quite within their rights IMO to protect their databases. Genealogy today is big business!

Brian Turnbull

07-04-2008, 02:35 PM

Graham Hadfield

07-04-2008, 05:53 PM

I have just caught up with posts on this topic. As a member of three UK FHS I find that one of these Societies seems to be unable to grasp the computer age in that all addresses to officials of the Society are postal addresses. Given that there was a huge migration of people from the UK to other countries and the intersest in genealogy research in recent years I would think that giving email addresses as a contact point would be foremost in the Society's thinking. It can be frustrating when you are on the other side of the world.
Brian Turnbull

I can understand the frustration but would point out that it may not be practical for every Society to put e-mail facilities in place.

I used to maintain the web site for a Society which did not have an Internet link at its HQ and as that HQ is 130 miles from me it was not practical for me to accept e-mail communications. In such circumstances one can't necessarily expect officials of the Society - all unpaid volunteers of course - to use family e-mail accounts for Society business.

Graham

Brian Turnbull

08-04-2008, 08:01 AM

Graham Hadfield

08-04-2008, 09:18 AM

Graham, I wouldn't expect volunteer officials of a Society to have their private emails published, but I find it odd that Societies do not have an internet connection at all in the day and age, for emails to be sent to the office for attention.
I know of instances in Australia where the Society is very small, they use the local library for their work and attend on one or two days a week. Email messages can be sent to the library who then pass them on.

I think it all depends on the circumstances of the particular society, Brian.

In the example you quote, the society is taking advantage of an existing facility. I assume that this means there is little or no cost to the society and, being a library, it is open 5 or 6 days a week.

The HQ of the society I am thinking of is separate from any other organisation, was established in 1996 before the Internet (or even use of computers for family history) took off and is only open for a total of 18 hours a week.

I'm not (and never have been) a committee member so have not been privy to all their discussions but it is obvious that the cost/benefit of installing an Internet connection would have to be weighed against other calls on the society's funds. I have no doubt that a connection will be installed at some time in the future but I expect that the committee will be trying to judge how to achieve the best value for the membership as a whole.

Graham

Peter_uk_can

08-04-2008, 03:50 PM

I think that all those over 65 who express an interest in Genealogy should be given a free Laptop dancer to work with. :rolleyes:

Mary Anne

08-04-2008, 04:53 PM

It's interesting to hear the different perspectives on this issue from other countries. I have just accepted to be president of our local British Isles FHS for the next 2 years, so this is timely for me.

Currently, our small local society is growing - we have doubled membership since I joined about 8 years ago. We are entering the next phase of the "computer age" with a newly redesigned website that has just won a major award. We send all meeting notices by email (alhtough we do offer the choice of a telephone tree). We are instituting electronic registration for our annual conference to be held in September, although there are a number of our older (yet computer-savvie) members who have declared loudly that they will NEVER use electronic registration! We are summarizing much of the content of our quarterly publication (another award-winner) on our (public) website, and have FINALLY decided to jettison the paper copies previous to 1999 that have been stored in the president's basement since the dawn of time (and there is NO room in my basement for them, so I will be encouraging this practice!).

Well I remember the endless discussions when I first joined 8 years ago (and served on the board in a minor capacity) about whether or not we should have an Internet connection in our library for the use of our members!!!! It was a silly discussion, because our telephone provider was already providing it, and a website space, and several email addresses, all in an affordable package! The collective knowledge of board members on the issue was, of course, not great.

At the first board meeting I attended the other night as "observing new president", we dealt with the issue of a sister society that subscribes to our quarterly and is in the process of digitizing their entire library, with the eventual goal of making it ALL available on the Internet. They digitized their holdings of our publication without our permission, although they have now contacted us, with regard to their eventual goal. We are going to be writing to let them know that they may make these available to their members either at their physical library or on a closed website, but we will not give them permission to make the publication available more broadly on the Internet. Currently we do not even have digital copies available to our own members (although this is something we should move towards - and since they have already digitized them...). In addition to the issue of benefit to our own members, we also have the issue of copyright - we have some folks who have submitted articles to our quarterly and have expressly copyrighted their articles, because they intend to publish a book later on.

The issue of volunteers is always with us. We are getting new blood, but we still need to beware of burning out the ones we've got! We often partner with another local society that is a branch member of our provincial society. They often seem to want to do things "because they are doing it in Toronto", and we ask ourselves "what is the expectation that our members will need to volunteer for this activity, and how will we then split the cost/benefit? and is there a local *need*?" Many of our members also belong to this other society, so they are doubly "taxed" if you will, on volunteering.

I myself used to belong to the branch, but dropped my membership to it, because I am forced to belong not only to the local branch ($15) but also to pay $47 to the "parent" provincial organization. Then if I want to also belong to other local branches is is anywhere from $10- $17 EACH for me to do so - they are organized by county and there are 54 counties in the province; I would need to belong to at LEAST half a dozen to cover "my folks", who travelled around a bit - and that's just Ontario!! Never mind the other 9 provinces of Canada. The added advantage to the British Isles society I am now about to be president of, is that I know that virtually all of my ancestors came from the British Isles, so I can better focus on the geography by belonging to this society.

Personally, I think FHSs will always have a place - most particularly from the point of view of local knowledge, and the benefit of having human interaction. People will vote with their feet, however, if they do not perceive a benefit to themselves from their society - whether that benefit is in having access to transcriptions; or is in getting appreciation for their own work; or is in helping someone else.

Peter_uk_can

08-04-2008, 05:36 PM

Although I have been doing the genealogy thing for many years, I have belonged to only two FHS's. I will accept that I must have some severe failings, because my time with them was short and not very sweet.

I found that both societies were completely unable to organise areas of responsibility which meant that every decision on every subject had to be discussed and voted on by every member.

The internet was discussed ad-nauseum, the discussions over privacy would make one think that this was a department of the CIA or MI6.

There was the paranoi over not publishing anything because someone could steal it.

This is where I am afraid that I seem to be way out of step with many folk.

Genealogy is not an emerging science, it is uncovering something that is already there but in a place or form that is often, random, incoherent and scattered to the four corners.

I do my research and pay whatever and I don't care who reads it after that, because the act of others reading it does not cost me anymore than I have already spent. Others may choose to add to it, alter it, and perhaps screw it up completely, but even if they paid for it, there is no guarantee the same won't happen.

I am not sure how much we spend on our yard in plants each year, but I would guess it is close to $1000 Cnd, maybe I should put a fence around and charge for folk to view my flowers.

Our yard gives us pleasure and so does genealogy, if what we do helps someone along the way then that's OK, because one day I will be dead and no one will really give a damn anyway.

Maybe genealogy should lighten up a bit.

Peter.

Hamlet

09-04-2008, 10:00 AM

I have to agree with Peter on the release of information. All that i know is available to anyone interested. I have the fear that we are loosing material as the years go on.

I am sure that like me people have seen huge private collections of records where once the owner has died have gone to the rubbish tip. Putting it on line means someone might benefit in the future.

My FHS runs a fabulous, helpful, on line message board, where we all try and help one another. The members are world wide, and it is amazing the information that comes through that source.

It depends I think on the expertise available to that society from its members; mine covers techno help as well as geneological, but thats because it is a very large organisation.

Peter_uk_can

09-04-2008, 05:09 PM

Hamlet. Not unlike this B-G Forum.

Many people who sign on to B-G ,spend what must be thousands of hours a year trawling through archives, databases, websites, books etc in order to help somebody who they probably have never met and to whom they have no connection other than the common interest in genealogy.

I know of two photo collections and other material that went to the dump.

apehangmom

06-05-2008, 08:00 PM

I have been trying to join a unnamed society .. in massachusetts . A year later they are still reviewing my pilgrim line. lol . I think that its hard to get older people to relinquish the reigns and let the younger generation in. My instance was I asked what the group did. My mind was thinking that the group had lunch and talked about raising money for grants for college.. for the members of the society... that is what they did but the lady in charge was insulted by my questions. I do not think that many of the societys are up to date as far as what younger people want when they join such a club. I think that they should be taught about the family and make it fun for all ages. I think that some are not thinking in terms of keeping the society moving ahead in time . thanks christine

suedent

06-05-2008, 09:36 PM

I'm a committee member of a small but growing Society and I've recently returned from our AGM. We have members who range in age from their 20s to their 90s and of varying levels of obsession, from all corners of the globe (we Cornish did get about a bit!). As part of our AGM weekend we open our doors to the public & despite the apalling weather this year we had a constant stream of people taking a look at what we are about. If past years are anything to go by some of those visitors will become members before long.

We do have a website but many of our members still prefer to sit and read our quarterly magazine, even those with internet access. I'm happy to answer queries by both email and snail mail regarding my transcriptions & for us it seems to work. Perhaps because we are only a small society we don't seem to have the problems that some people have described (touch wood).

PS. At least one of our members is also a member of this forum & we had a brief chat, strangely it wasn't about Polperro but about a thread on BG!

Falcor

19-06-2008, 12:39 PM

I have read some of the comments on this thread with interest. I am a member of the Norfolk FHS and had occasion to visit their office in Norwich a couple of years ago, when I was in the locale doing some research at the Norfolk Records Office. The volunteers were very helpful and knowledgeable but there did not appear to be any of the younger generation involved in this charitable work. I also had occasion to visit another small FHS in Scotland, who were equally as helpful and again, the volunteers were from the older generations. I got the overall impression that not many of the younger people have much interest in genealogy, or are not actively involved in it. But to be fair, I didn't have much interest in the history of my family until I got into my 40's. Perhaps it is something that generally interests the older generations? It would be interesting to get a percentage breakdown of the age groups who are involved in genealogy as a hobby/interest.

With regard to the FHS's disappearing over time, I am not so sure. There is a renaissance in genealogy, thanks to recent television celebrities researching their families, and also the popular Genes Connected site, amongst others. I do believe though that a lot of these FHS's really need to move forward and open up their archives to the web or CD/DVD for research. People generally aren't prepared to travel vast distances, or can't, to visit a FHS or local record office, hence the request for so many look-ups in groups such as this. I believe the way forward for their own survival is to charge for CD's of data or access to a website with a pay-to-download setup for Parish Records and suchlike. The NRO / NA should instigate this locally to open up all the records for online access and start to digitize all the fiche and data available. This could be done in liason with the FHS's as well.

How many people have ordered a copy of a BMD certificate - at £7 per time (£10 in Scotland) ? If each of these was scanned and saved as a GIF or JPG and catalogued, then it would be quicker to order online and be sent direct via e-mail, perhaps for a lesser charge. A mammoth task, perhaps, but once done..........well it would pay for itself in time.

Happy Hunting

Falcor

mansell

19-06-2008, 03:10 PM

I can understand that, but any FHS should be really considering putting their records on Family History Online. Nothing to stop people accessing information on behalf of a third party - but they have to pay for it first. And the way it's set up makes it quite difficult in my opinion (though I am a non-techie :) ) to obtain stuff for copying without spending quite a lot of money. Yes, the FHSs have to spend some time getting the data into the format acceptable to the site but they then get money they would not normally get because people won't buy fiche. Win win win situation as far as I can see. FHS get funds - and I get the info I want!

Great minds think alike - even if one of them is a little slower than yours, because I only thought about it yesterday when my latest FHS magazine dropped through the letterbox. Not only saves on postage, but saves members storage problems if they're like me and like to keep the magazine.

Edited to add: I do wish you hadn't used 'online' and 'email' in the same sentence, because I nearly made a right idiot of myself, because I was thinking of emailing the magazine to members as opposed to them just viewing it on the FHS website. You would probably still have to print the 'Members' interests' and send to everyone. I know a lot of Societies do an online version, but not everyone elects to go on it. Also it was bad enough waiting for a reply to an email I sent direct to a possible new cousin last year. If I'd had to wait for my 'please forward my details email' to be forwarded through the FHS I'd have been a complete wreck. :D
Pam

I was going to stay out of this one but ?

When members of this great forum give information
That information as come from somewhere do you know what I mean
ie: so they passing information on that technically they shouldn't be
I have a booklet with about 300 names in it which I purchased from FHS
Now for argument's sake someone on here is a after a certain surname
That surname is in my booklet and I give them the information that's copying

I am sorry but FHS must move with the times (you will never stop people copying)
I was at a computer fair last weekend. you could get a copy of Microsoft Office 2008 for £10 this retails in PC world for well over £300

Peter_uk_can

19-06-2008, 03:37 PM

I was going to stay out of this one but ?

ie: so they passing information on that technically they shouldn't be
I have a booklet with about 300 names in it which I purchased from FHS
Now for argument's sake someone on here is a after a certain surname
That surname is in my booklet and I give them the information that's copying

Not sure I agree with you here. Historical information is a matter of fact and has no copyright. The manner in which it is presented maybe copyright.

Guy Etchells

19-06-2008, 06:51 PM

No strictly accurate Peter, if a number of facts are copied (at different times) that may be a breach of database right which is a form of copyright.
Cheers
Guy

MarkJ

19-06-2008, 07:47 PM

I was at a computer fair last weekend. you could get a copy of Microsoft Office 2008 for £10 this retails in PC world for well over £300

That is obviously a pirated copy, which may or may not have a dodgy registration code. Microsoft tend to block many of the well known dodgy registration codes, so you may well find that a £10 copy will not work, or will not allow you to update things. Microsoft check your computer via the WGA system regularly and, if using pirate Microsoft products, you may find yourself being blocked from updates other than critical ones etc.
Microsfot Office *is* very expensive IMHO. If you want a free Office suite, then there is OpenOffice.org, which works well and is free of charge.

Copying details from a census cd or whatever to this forum is fine - as long as it is just one or two names to assist someone. If anyone was to post whole cd images here for example, then that would soon get them into bother. Fair use - the supplying of occasional bits of info - is not a problem.
If you have a cd with 300 names on it and you look up a name for someone, then that should come under fair use. If you posted the whole 300 names, then that would be breaking the copyright law - assuming the disk was copyrighted.
It gets a little fuzzy because some people - myself included - release their own stuff under Creative Commons licences or the GPL. Although there are variations, they basically allow others to reuse my work (for example computer code which I have written) as long as they mention where they got it from in the first place. They can expand, improve or whatever my efforts and are perfectly entitled to do so, as long as they mention my original work and release their own improved effort under the same licence rules - i.e their work must also be freely available for reuse.
However, I have not come across any genealogy cds for example using that kind of licence - and commercial outfits like Microsoft certainly don't release their main bread and butter software (Windows, Office etc) under those kind of licences.

I tend to side with Peter on this - Take for example my transcriptions of my local graveyard. The data is out there freely available for anyone to view if they wish - they can simply go to the graveyard and look at the stones. I have merely done a transcription of these stones for my personal convenience and, because I am a kind chap, I placed them online for all to see. Now, if I had stuck them on a cd,and shoved a copyright notice on it, I could perhaps have sold those (as many Family History Societies and others do). If I had, and then found the cd being copied and sold at car boot sales or on EBay for example, the seller would be breaking the copyright laws. But if someone had a legitimately purchased copy of my transcripts and did the occasional lookup for others, then they have not broken the law. I suppose there must be some people who place Draconian copyrights on their works - and, if they state that the disk cannot be used for lookups, then that presumably means that the disk cannot be so used.
All the disks I have state that they must not be copied. But lookups is, in my view, fair use.

Mark

Guy Etchells

19-06-2008, 08:29 PM

Copying details from a census cd or whatever to this forum is fine - as long as it is just one or two names to assist someone. If anyone was to post whole cd images here for example, then that would soon get them into bother. Fair use - the supplying of occasional bits of info - is not a problem.
If you have a cd with 300 names on it and you look up a name for someone, then that should come under fair use. If you posted the whole 300 names, then that would be breaking the copyright law - assuming the disk was copyrighted.

Not necessarily, fair dealing is restricted to personal use, this does not include passing the information on to someone else.
I should also point out that if used as defence in court (risky) the onus would be on the accused to prove that their actions amounted to fair dealing and not on the copyright holder to prove that your actions were not fair-dealing.

snip
I tend to side with Peter on this - Take for example my transcriptions of my local graveyard. The data is out there freely available for anyone to view if they wish - they can simply go to the graveyard and look at the stones. I have merely done a transcription of these stones for my personal convenience and, because I am a kind chap, I placed them online for all to see. Now, if I had stuck them on a cd,and shoved a copyright notice on it, I could perhaps have sold those (as many Family History Societies and others do). If I had, and then found the cd being copied and sold at car boot sales or on EBay for example, the seller would be breaking the copyright laws. But if someone had a legitimately purchased copy of my transcripts and did the occasional lookup for others, then they have not broken the law.

Unless you the copyright holder have given them permission to do so then, yes, they have broken the copyright law.

I suppose there must be some people who place Draconian copyrights on their works - and, if they state that the disk cannot be used for lookups, then that presumably means that the disk cannot be so used.
All the disks I have state that they must not be copied. But lookups is, in my view, fair use.

Mark

Many CDs carry a licence as well as copyright.
If a person supplies look-ups from a CD that has a licence that forbids look-ups then that person has broken the law. No two ways about it, sorry.

I should also point out that repeated look-ups are considered the same as copying a significant amount from a work in the eyes of the law.
Cheers
Guy

Peter Goodey

19-06-2008, 09:46 PM

If a person supplies look-ups from a CD that has a licence that forbids look-ups then that person has broken the law. No two ways about it, sorry.

There most certainly are two ways about it. Sorry.

The hypothetical licence might be judged to be an unfair contract under consumer protection legislation. If so, it simply doesn't apply - whether or not you've 'agreed' to it.

MarkJ

19-06-2008, 11:21 PM

It is an interesting discussion.
Not being a legal type myself, I try to abide by whatever the restrictions on the cd say. If it said "no lookups for others", then I would stick to that. But in the "no copying" type restriction, I would assume that the occasional lookup is fair enough.
I can certainly see Guys argument that sufficient lookups could constitute "distribution" of the contents (or a significant part thereof) - but I doubt anyone sits there doing that number of lookups for other folks?

Peters comment regarding unfair contracts is one which has been applied to those daft End User Licence Agreements found in some software packages, carefully hidden under the shrinkwrapped packet. To read the licence, you have to open the packet - but the licence says that once you open the packet, you have agreed to the terms of the licence! A well known large Operating System manufacturer uses that argument a lot.
Because I don't use their Operating System, I reject the licence and uninstall their software anyway. But can I get a refund on the pre-installed software which comes loaded onto a PC if I buy it at a shop? Theoretically, yes, but in practice, not usually. Only a small handful of people have received a refund to my knowledge and that is generally from the PC manufacturer after lots of hassle.

Fair Use is a concept used for Wikipedia for example. There, a low quality image of a copyrighted picture or a few lines from a copyrighted book etc are regularly placed online and those have been successfully defended against prosecution as falling under the Fair Use heading. What the situation is in the UK specifically, I don't know offhand.
Blatent copying of entire disks (or large portions of them), when there is a clear licence or copyright preventing such actions is theft. It affects the livelihoods of those who sell - and in most genealogy cd cases, compile by transcribing themselves - these disks. Rod suffered at the hands of pirate copies of his Archive CD Books, as I am sure do others.

Mark

Guy Etchells

19-06-2008, 11:34 PM

There most certainly are two ways about it. Sorry.

The hypothetical licence might be judged to be an unfair contract under consumer protection legislation. If so, it simply doesn't apply - whether or not you've 'agreed' to it.

Any precedents?
As far as I am aware there have been no precedents set for this supposition that has floated around for some time.

There have on the other hand been precedents set for breach of contract.
Cheers
Guy

mansell

19-06-2008, 11:38 PM

That is obviously a pirated copy, which may or may not have a dodgy registration code. Microsoft tend to block many of the well known dodgy registration codes, so you may well find that a £10 copy will not work, or will not allow you to update things. Microsoft check your computer via the WGA system regularly and, if using pirate Microsoft products, you may find yourself being blocked from updates other than critical ones etc.
Microsfot Office *is* very expensive IMHO. If you want a free Office suite, then there is OpenOffice.org, which works well and is free of charge.

Copying details from a census cd or whatever to this forum is fine - as long as it is just one or two names to assist someone. If anyone was to post whole cd images here for example, then that would soon get them into bother. Fair use - the supplying of occasional bits of info - is not a problem.
If you have a cd with 300 names on it and you look up a name for someone, then that should come under fair use. If you posted the whole 300 names, then that would be breaking the copyright law - assuming the disk was copyrighted.
It gets a little fuzzy because some people - myself included - release their own stuff under Creative Commons licences or the GPL. Although there are variations, they basically allow others to reuse my work (for example computer code which I have written) as long as they mention where they got it from in the first place. They can expand, improve or whatever my efforts and are perfectly entitled to do so, as long as they mention my original work and release their own improved effort under the same licence rules - i.e their work must also be freely available for reuse.
However, I have not come across any genealogy cds for example using that kind of licence - and commercial outfits like Microsoft certainly don't release their main bread and butter software (Windows, Office etc) under those kind of licences.

I tend to side with Peter on this - Take for example my transcriptions of my local graveyard. The data is out there freely available for anyone to view if they wish - they can simply go to the graveyard and look at the stones. I have merely done a transcription of these stones for my personal convenience and, because I am a kind chap, I placed them online for all to see. Now, if I had stuck them on a cd,and shoved a copyright notice on it, I could perhaps have sold those (as many Family History Societies and others do). If I had, and then found the cd being copied and sold at car boot sales or on EBay for example, the seller would be breaking the copyright laws. But if someone had a legitimately purchased copy of my transcripts and did the occasional lookup for others, then they have not broken the law. I suppose there must be some people who place Draconian copyrights on their works - and, if they state that the disk cannot be used for lookups, then that presumably means that the disk cannot be so used.
All the disks I have state that they must not be copied. But lookups is, in my view, fair use.

Mark

Mark... Let me make it quite clear I did not buy any software
Just making a point how easy it is to get copied material
Some one made the point that is why a lot of FHS will not copy
There information on CDs and if that's the case then there's no future
In reseaching your family history we all have to move with the times

Regards
Mansell

MarkJ

19-06-2008, 11:53 PM

Mark... Let me make it quite clear I did not buy any software
Just making a point how easy it is to get copied material
Some one made the point that is why a lot of FHS will not copy
There information on CDs and if that's the case then there's no future
In reseaching your family history we all have to move with the times

Regards
Mansell

I was not suggesting you did buy the dodgy disks - I hope that I didn't come across that way :(
In some circumstances, I can understand why people do buy pirate copies of expensive software. There is an argument that computing is an expensive hobby anyway - so people should just pay up. I don't subscribe to that myself - I use free software only anyway. But charging £300+ for software programs and expecting people to upgrade every year or two is just silly.

You are quite right - it has been very easy to purchase copied disks (or to download them from a variety of places) for a long time. I saw copies of Windows 95 back when it was released and long before that everyone used to copy floppy disks for Amiga and Atari machines. Back in the early days of PCs (1976 to be precise), a certain young student by the name of Bill Gates wrote a very famous letter - Open Letter to Hobbyists - in which he complained about people copying the work done by others. Personally, I disagree with some of the content of that letter, but it goes to show that copyright infringement or whatever you wish to call it has been ongoing since the start of computing as a hobby.
Will it ever be stopped? I doubt it to be honest.

Mark

mansell

20-06-2008, 12:04 AM

I was not suggesting you did buy the dodgy disks - I hope that I didn't come across that way :(
In some circumstances, I can understand why people do buy pirate copies of expensive software. There is an argument that computing is an expensive hobby anyway - so people should just pay up. I don't subscribe to that myself - I use free software only anyway. But charging £300+ for software programs and expecting people to upgrade every year or two is just silly.

You are quite right - it has been very easy to purchase copied disks (or to download them from a variety of places) for a long time. I saw copies of Windows 95 back when it was released and long before that everyone used to copy floppy disks for Amiga and Atari machines. Back in the early days of PCs (1976 to be precise), a certain young student by the name of Bill Gates wrote a very famous letter - Open Letter to Hobbyists - in which he complained about people copying the work done by others. Personally, I disagree with some of the content of that letter, but it goes to show that copyright infringement or whatever you wish to call it has been ongoing since the start of computing as a hobby.
Will it ever be stopped? I doubt it to be honest.

Mark

Not for one minute and thanks for the reply

Regards
Mansell

Mutley

20-06-2008, 12:58 AM

michaelpipe

20-06-2008, 02:33 AM

Pam Downes

20-06-2008, 09:36 AM

I am just an ordinary, common or garden person, or dog if you like, don't care, either way but I do not have either the computer experience or legal knowledge of any of the previous posters.

I have bought lots of CD's and have subscriptions to various genealogy sites. When I come upon a licence agreement I have two choices, "I agree" or "I do not agree". If I want to use what I have bought and paid for, then I have no option but to click the "I agree".

I do quickly look through the wording and at no time have I seen the phrase - "You must not do look ups for other people" or indeed the word "lookups"

What sentence or wording should I look for, that in legal terms, tells me I am not allowed to do a "look up" and post it here?
Hi Mutley,
I think that most CDs have written on the 'paperwork' on either the outer or inner casing:
"You may not make copies of the data. You may print or download portions of data for private research and study only, and to include in your personal family history. You may not publish or sell any portion of the data in printed, electronic or any other form without prior consent." (my emphasis)
I'm sure these words would also be written into any licence agreement.
Pam

Graham Hadfield

20-06-2008, 10:24 AM

Whatever the reason for their impending demise, my main problem in the past has been the total lack of availability of services for overseas researchers eg Australia. My area of interest has been in several English counties, and when looking at the various FHS websites, I find that payment for membership and any research services cannot be conducted over the internet. Charges for bank cheques etc inflate the cost, making it a poor proposition to join. (Not all FHS's - some have made it into the 21st century).
As stated above they need to move with the times, and perhaps they would gain many more overseas members.

I can understand that frustration but, on the other hand, it may well be that setting up Internet payments might involve societies in costs which they would not otherwise have incurred. Those costs would have to be passed on to the people using the services or be borne by the membership as a whole.

The former might be just as unattractive as bank charges and the latter might be judged unfair to other members. It's all a balancing act and I'm sure that the vast majority of societies take what appears to be the fairest overall decision each time they look at the subject.

Graham

Peter Goodey

20-06-2008, 10:54 AM

If you as a consumer come across any term in any licence "agreement" that you think is unfair (works unduly to the advantage of the supplier and to the disadvantage of the consumer), I would advise you to investigate your rights under consumer protection legislation.

http://www.oft.gov.uk/

Geoffers

20-06-2008, 10:59 AM

There is at least one FHS with its own library and which offers a limited number of look-ups per year to members. Requests for look-ups and replies can be sent via e-mail. I understand the number of lookups is limited because some people were asking for ridiculous amounts of information - I can understand the problem for the societies; I co-founded and used to actively support a site providing indexes to help make information more easily found in record offices. I have lost count of the number of e-mails I received from people asking me to send them all the information I have on such and such a name - and often these would be very commonly occurring names. One such person extracted over 1,300 indexed entries and sent them in an e-mail asking for the full entries for each - she was disappointed by my response.

Although the site I co-founded is still online, I do not add entries to it and will not respond to requests relating to it. There are too many people who are not interested in researching for themselves and just want everything handed on a plate.

Unfortunately, a growing number of people spoil things for those left who are still interested in learning, and researching for themselves.

The problems of researching from a distance cannot be over-estimated. It is frustrating, but if societies are to remain financially viable they need to ensure that they can get sufficient income from sales of publications and membership. There is no easy solution.

Graham Hadfield

20-06-2008, 10:59 AM

It is an interesting discussion.
<snip>
Blatent copying of entire disks (or large portions of them), when there is a clear licence or copyright preventing such actions is theft. It affects the livelihoods of those who sell - and in most genealogy cd cases, compile by transcribing themselves - these disks. Rod suffered at the hands of pirate copies of his Archive CD Books, as I am sure do others.

Mark

Hi Mutley,
I think that most CDs have written on the 'paperwork' on either the outer or inner casing:
"You may not make copies of the data. You may print or download portions of data for private research and study only, and to include in your personal family history. You may not publish or sell any portion of the data in printed, electronic or any other form without prior consent." (my emphasis)
I'm sure these words would also be written into any licence agreement.
Pam

As Mark says, an interesting discussion. I look at it from the point of view of a publisher who invests considerable amounts of time and money in publishing scanned copies of (out of copyright) books & maps on CD

All the case inserts of our CDs include the paragraph:
The contents of this CD are Copyright © JiGraH Resources year; all rights reserved. You may not make copies of, publish or sell any of the contents of this CD without the prior written consent of JiGraH Resources. You may print or extract portions for the purposes of your private research and study only.
The purpose is basically to stop the pirating which Mark mentioned. To my knowledge only one person has pirated and sold copies of our CDs. With the help of Trading Standards that person was warned off; he was also banned by eBay following our complaint to them. We would take vigorous action against any other person we suspected of similar conduct.

As regards look-ups:
1) In reality, it simply wouldn't be worth us trying to identify and take action against private individuals doing the odd look-up, even if we wanted to.
2) I know that at least one professional researcher has bought a number of our CDs and uses them because he simply can't get hold of the books any other way and/or it would cost him too much to obtain them. I don't regard that as breaching copyright as it seems to me extremely unlikely that a researcher would use any given publication sufficiently to amount to distribution as mentioned by Guy.
3) We sell to a number of libraries and FH societies who allow the CDs to be used by their members and others undertaking research. I suppose that could be termed an "arms length" look-up because the researcher is doing the work but not purchasing the product. Once again, I think it would be insufficient to amount to distribution.

We would not attempt to take any action against someone selling on one of our CDs once they had finished with it, so long as it was the original CD and they didn't retain a copy. After all, if people didn't do that with old books &c we wouldn't have any source material would we :D

Graham

MarkJ

20-06-2008, 11:11 AM

That seems a very logical, sensible approach Graham.

Mark

Mutley

20-06-2008, 01:17 PM

That seems a very logical, sensible approach Graham.

Mark

I agree.
Thank you all for the clarification.

BeeE586

20-06-2008, 01:41 PM

Some little time ago I asked for advice on this subject but since it has been raised again ........

I have made provision in my will for all my Family History material to be passed on to a local FHS, and this includes books, a number of CD's, some purchased and some containing my own transcripts of Probate Documents, Manor Court Rolls, Parish Registers, Churchwarden and similar Parish Chest material, etc, and lengthy indexes culled by me from a variety of sources over my thirty odd years of research. Also, all my personal research of my own and my late husband's familiies - I might add that all information was obtained legally so far as I am aware from libraries, public archives, Diocesan and County record offices and small amounts from other researchers, some indeed from other Forum members.

Would anyone care to comment on the legality of what I propose to do with regard to copyright ? It won't affect me - I shall be ash - but I would not wish to cause problems for either my execuors or the FHS concerned.

Eileen

Peter_uk_can

20-06-2008, 04:37 PM

I said something along these lines earlier in this post. I have rewritten it.

Copyright protects literary works, paintings, photographs, drawings, films, music, sculptures in their form as created. Only in works of fiction does it protect the underlying ideas, so you may have problems in writing E.T meets Mr Spock.

Copyright does not protect facts. Copyright does not prevent anyone from using ideas and facts found by you in books, journals, archives, graveyards, diary, telephone book and other things of the like I can't think of.

It is common courtesy when writing a factual book, or website to attribute your sources. History books can be full of these references and many times one line of information about a person may be linked to several sources.

One thing has come to mind though. Seeing that works of fiction are subject to copyright, does that protect some of the transcripts that can be read in "Arbitery.com". |scold|

Guy Etchells

20-06-2008, 05:06 PM

Peter, facts can be and are copyright.

Since 1997 there is legislation in the UK and Europe which provides copyright for facts.
Canada and the US being signatories to the Berne agreement are also bound by this legislation.
Database right lasts for 15 years.

Database right exists if there has been “a substantial investment in obtaining, verifying or presenting the contents of a database”

Substantial means substantial in terms of quantity or quality or a combination of both.
Investment means any investment and not only of a financial nature. (Whether of financial, human or technical resources)
Cheers
Guy

pipsqueak

20-06-2008, 06:22 PM

If anyone is interested in the opinion of a humble amateur and relative beginner, I'd like to offer my twopennorth.

Since many of the records genealogists use are public records, and Parish/non-conformist records are available to most people for perusal at the discretion of the keepers of them, I think it is a good thing to make them as widely available as possible. I would be the first to admit that it was lack of time and funds that prevented me from pursuing my family history when I started twenty-five years ago. I hardly knew what I was doing and had never heard of any FHS. Now I have a bit more time and money, but I live three thousand miles from my prime sources, so I make do with what I can glean from paid and unpaid online memberships and would purchase CDs if I thought that any I have seen advertised would actually be of any use to me.

I think that what is paid for the resources used - whether online or on CD should be enough to satisfy the transcribers. What I do with the information I have bought and paid for should be my business, as long as I don't immediately run out and reproduce the entire database or CD and sell it to other people. If I purchase a dictionary, and I look up a word for someone else and copy its meaning and hand it to them on a piece of paper, am I breaking copyright? If I am, then "the law is an ass".

I am grateful for what I can get hold of; I would love to spend days in the Records offices poring over the actual books and documents but it simply isn't possible. I make do with help from others and, hopefully, images of the originals. People who are 'precious' about holding on to their information should ask themselves exactly what they hope to gain by denying access to those who are equally worthy but not as well-resourced.

From what I have read here and from my experience in one local records office, the last place I should want to leave my precious photos and papers is a records office or an FHS. If they just want to act like a secret society and only allow access to a chosen few, they can do without my collection. The one I visited allowed me to take a photograph of a postcard in their possession as long as I included their copyright paper. What did I do? I photographed it, and then cropped off their stupid paper. They refused to do a scan because they didn't know if they were allowed to (!!) or what to charge, yet if they had they could have put their copyright paper in the middle of the picture and I couldn't have done a thing about it! It was a postcard - and I bet there are any number of copies of it around in shoeboxes, and could just have easily been in mine. That was what made me determined to share what I have, digitally, but to hold on to the originals.

On a final note, I found a c1910 photograph on a university website, which is an identical copy of a picture in my own collection. Theirs declared a copyright and "right-clicks" were forbidden, yet the picture is old and the photographer isn't even named on the back. My photo is my photo. Mine is now online too - but I've invited anyone who wants to download it for themselves to do so. I have the original and that is what is important to me. It has value. A digital reproduction of it does not. The same applies to a lot of basic genealogy stuff, in my opinion.

|soapbox|

Peter_uk_can

20-06-2008, 06:28 PM

Hi Pipsqueak... there you go, bringing common sense into things.

Alas poor old Common Sense died many years ago.

Browneyes

20-06-2008, 08:21 PM

Can I just add a bit about something that concerns me but sort of provides a positive for FHS's?

In the UK the Land Registry stopped holding original deeds/documents in 2003 and evidence of Title is now held electronically. Many (or is that the majority of) building societies dived into dematerialisation and original documents were and are passed to owners of property or their solicitors for 'safe keeping'. So all over the country, in attics, paper bags and who knows where else there are the remaining old original documents containing a wealth of information gathering dust and...heaven forbid...ending up in a skip or a car boot somewhere. I daren't think about those documents that were carelessly destroyed... If only the documents had been passed to a FHS somewhere. Ok, maybe they would only be selectively available but at least they would be archived and 'safe'. Or alternatively they could have been passed to a library.

Browneyes

Graham Hadfield

20-06-2008, 08:41 PM

<snip>
On a final note, I found a c1910 photograph on a university website, which is an identical copy of a picture in my own collection. Theirs declared a copyright and "right-clicks" were forbidden, yet the picture is old and the photographer isn't even named on the back. My photo is my photo. Mine is now online too - but I've invited anyone who wants to download it for themselves to do so. I have the original and that is what is important to me. It has value. A digital reproduction of it does not. The same applies to a lot of basic genealogy stuff, in my opinion.
<snip>
Did the university claim copyright in the original picture or just the copy displayed on the web site?

As the original photo was more than 70 years old I assume that copyright had expired (though that may not be the case if it was not a corporate publication and the photographer who took it had died less than 70 years previously).

Once copyright has expired then anyone can scan the picture and produce a new image - that electronic image then has copyright protection even though the original hard copy picture does not.

That is why our copyright notice applies to the contents of the CD rather than the original book/map. As the original is out of copyright then anyone who has one can make their own copies of it as we do but they have no rights to copy the images which we make.

The fact that there are several copies of a picture in circulation does not affect copyright - nobody is allowed to make copies without the permission of the copyright holder until copyright expires.

You are absolutely correct when you say that "my photo is my photo" but that still does not confer the right to make copies until copyright has expired.

The Great Ormond Street Hospital page regarding Peter Pan Copyright (http://www.gosh.org/about_us/peterpan/copyright.html) makes interesting reading in explaining the situation.

Graham

BeeE586

20-06-2008, 08:49 PM

Substantial means substantial in terms of quantity or quality or a combination of both.
Investment means any investment and not only of a financial nature. (Whether of financial, human or technical resources)
Cheers
Guy

I am not being facetious, Guy - I value your knowledge and opinion - but does investment of time come under this heading ? I couldn't even begin to estimate the hours, days and weeks involved.

Eileen

Guy Etchells

20-06-2008, 09:07 PM

Yes, that comes under human resources.
It is set out in
Statutory Instrument 1997 No.3032

Cheers
Guy

v.wells

20-06-2008, 09:55 PM

Hi Pipsqueak... there you go, bringing common sense into things.

Alas poor old Common Sense died many years ago.

I agree. Exceptionally valid points Pipsqueak! :D

BeeE586

21-06-2008, 07:50 PM

Thank you, Guy. Does that mean, then, that if I make a single index of names copied from a number of legitimate sources, say Parish registers and Census returns found in Record Offices and Libraries, then I own the copyright of that index because it is my own work ? i.e. human resources.

I ask because I have done just that for some of my names, taking every entry for the names Siddall and Rodgers from a number of registers in north east Derbyshire, and for the name Fenton in north Notts amongst others. I have regularly supplied information from these indexes, and indeed passed them on in full to other interested parties - quite without charge I might add other than postage costs before e-mail transfer. Is this legal ?

Such a complicated subject, and I am quite bewildered.

Eileen

MarkJ

21-06-2008, 08:59 PM

As I understand the rules Eileen, that is correct - you created the work (i.e your index of names) from freely available resources and as such, your work is a new one. Thus you would retain the copyright on that work.
Guy will be the best person to give the definative answer though.

Mark

Graham Hadfield

21-06-2008, 11:46 PM

Yes Eileen, the work is your copyright and it is perfectly legal for you to share without charge.

We did somethimg similar for the Glossop area of Derbyshire and many of the results are posted on our web site.

Grahjam

Sean K

23-06-2008, 01:38 PM

I think this thread may start going around in circles :)

I would disagree that Eileen has copyright of her work because it has taken her time to compile it. As far as I understand the issue, copyright applies to *original* work i.e. the Office of National Statistics collect census information and hold copyright for the Censuses, the General Registry Office gather information about births, marriages and deaths and the copyright lies with them.

The fact you have taken time to copy information form these data sources doesn't transfer the copyright to you. For example, I copied all entries for my surname from the Death Registers (when they were still in bound leather volumes on shelves!) and displayed the list on my website. The ONS were happy with this as long as I made it clear on my site the information remained Crown copyright. I may possibly be able to claim copyright over the way the information is displayed, but not the information itself. On that basis I guess that parish registers are copyright of the Church, while a database of transcriptions of gravestones would be copyright of whoever spent time climbing through undergrowth doing the work.

MarkJ

23-06-2008, 02:34 PM

OK, just to play "Devil's Advocate" here...

The ONS send out forms, which we (or in the past, others on our behalf) complete. Working on the copyright principles, is that completed form our copyright or that of the ONS? I cannot recall seeing any notice on my last census form that I waived my rights to the details.
The "Original Work" is the completed form surely? Later, when the ONS compile all those forms into their database, the derived work (i.e created from all those forms) becomes the ONS copyright.
But if someone then transcribes a census form, surely that transcript is now a derived work, in a different format, and thus the copyright *for that specific transcription* belongs to the transcriber?
There are transcribed censuses for Cornwall available online. These are copyrighted by the project which placed them there - because they are a transcription, rather than the originals. If the project simply photocopied the census sheets and placed those online, that would be breaking the copyright - but the transcriptions are not affected.

If Eileen or anyone else compiles something from a variety of sources, then that compilation is their work - hence their copyright.

For example - I just opened a cd of burials which I was about to use to lookup an ancestor.
That cd was compiled by someone who went to the Cornwall County Records Office and took the time to sit there and wade through the mountains of data there to pull out the burials for a specific parish.
I have done it myself, as I am sure most of us here have done and it is quite time consuming.
Now, this person then created a database of these transcriptions and sells the cds to those of us with an interest in that parish.
The original data came from the Parish Church, was stored at the CRO, retrieved and compiled into a database by the cd creator....
The cd states that the disk is copyright of the transcriber/creator.

In this case, who owns the copyright? Well, I would suggest that each of the organisations involved has their specific version which they presumably hold a copyright on.
If Parish records/CRO records etc are copyright, then, following the argument given by Sean K, the transcriber who sells the cds is commiting some sort of crime. Likewise, the folks who transcribed and placed the Cornish censuses online. Plus of course, all those of us who place our transcriptions of parish records etc on our websites.

Mark

BeeE586

23-06-2008, 05:13 PM

Oh dear ! I did not intend to open a can of worms by my request for information and my question really was for my own interest only - I do not intend to make any claim for "Rights" over my indexes. They were compiled solely to help my own research e.g. to try to demolish a brick wall or two (not successful I might add), and have always been freely available to other interested parties. The only time I would be narked would be if anyone else tried to make money from them - I never have.

My own thoughts are with Mark - if a person goes to the trouble to transcribe and index any series of documents in their own time and at their own expense, (which might be considerable if travel costs are involved), then they should have some rights over the end result.

Take parish registers. Many early ones had baptisms, burials and marriages all together. If they are transcribed, entered on a database, sorted by event and chronological order, then printed and the sheets given a page number, then sorted alphabetically and indexed by name .................. what else can that be but a new piece of work? - it bears no resemblance whatsover to the original register. I agree that if this is done on behalf of a FHS or other organization, then they should hold the copyright which I believe is what happens.

For instance, I did take part in a scheme to record War Memorials; information of site, size and structure was entered on printed sheets with lists of names, rank, etc., of the fallen in two World Wars. The sheets were forwarded to (War Graves Commission I think but I could be wrong). I would not expect to retain any copyright over the bits of information I supplied, that surely lies with the organizing authority who will presumably publish the results after they have been collated.

No doubt other opinions will surface.

Eileen

Geoffers

23-06-2008, 05:40 PM

The ONS send out forms, which we (or in the past, others on our behalf) complete. Working on the copyright principles, is that completed form our copyright or that of the ONS? I cannot recall seeing any notice on my last census form that I waived my rights to the details.

In the case of a census form, it is a reruirement at Law to provide the information, which then becomes subject to Crown Copyright.

But if someone then transcribes a census form, surely that transcript is now a derived work, in a different format, and thus the copyright *for that specific transcription* belongs to the transcriber?

Copyright of Census returns and other documents held by TNA has been relinquished provided the full reference for the work is given and the fact that the original doument is held by TNA.

For example - I just opened a cd of burials which I was about to use to lookup an ancestor. That cd was compiled by someone who went to the Cornwall County Records Office and took the time to sit there and wade through the mountains of data there to pull out the burials for a specific parish. Now, this person then created a database of these transcriptions and sells the cds to those of us with an interest in that parish.

.......and that compiler who created the database may claim copyright on their work in the format in which it was compiled.

The original data came from the Parish Church, was stored at the CRO

..........and the incumbent of the parish remains the owner of the original registers and may grant or withold permission for photgraphic copies to be made of the register.

My own thoughts are with Mark - if a person goes to the trouble to transcribe and index any series of documents in their own time and at their own expense, (which might be considerable if travel costs are involved), then they should have some rights over the end result.

As I understand it, the financial cost involved is not necessarily a point in issue; it is the endeavour (effort, investment in creativity and time) to create something 'new' which is important (e.g. a searchable database) - even if that creation contains facts which may be accessed elsewhere in another format (e.g. parish registers), which may in itself be subject to another copyright or licence. This is one of the means by which a fact may become subject to copyright

Guy Etchells

23-06-2008, 07:34 PM

In the case of a census form, it is a reruirement at Law to provide the information, which then becomes subject to Crown Copyright.

No sorry, just because someone has to supply information to comply with the law does not give the right to the crown to claim copyright over their information.
I had this out with the PRO over the census return that I published on my website.
They could not come up with any law that allowed the Crown to claim copyright.
The copyright of a completed census schedule belongs to the individual who completed the schedule.

On the other hand the copyright of a completed census enumerator's return is Crown Copyright because the enumerator completed it during the course of his/her work.

Copyright of Census returns and other documents held by TNA has been relinquished provided the full reference for the work is given and the fact that the original doument is held by TNA.

The copyright of the blank form has also been relinquished.

As I understand it, the financial cost involved is not necessarily a point in issue; it is the endeavour (effort, investment in creativity and time) to create something 'new' which is important (e.g. a searchable database) - even if that creation contains facts which may be accessed elsewhere in another format (e.g. parish registers), which may in itself be subject to another copyright or licence. This is one of the means by which a fact may become subject to copyright

Statutory Instrument 1997 No. 3032 section 12. 1. -
"investment" includes any investment, whether of financial, human or technical resources;

Also-
Databases
3A. - (1) In this Part "database" means a collection of independent works, data or other materials which -
(a) are arranged in a systematic or methodical way, and
(b) are individually accessible by electronic or other means.
(2) For the purposes of this Part a literary work consisting of a database is original if, and only if, by reason of the selection or arrangement of the contents of the database the database constitutes the author's own intellectual creation.".

Cheers
Guy

BeeE586

25-06-2008, 01:03 PM

Take parish registers. Many early ones had baptisms, burials and marriages all together. If they are transcribed, entered on a database, sorted by event and chronological order, then printed and the sheets given a page number, then sorted alphabetically and indexed by name .................. what else can that be but a new piece of work? - it bears no resemblance whatsover to the original register.
Eileen

Thank you for further explanation, Guy. In the case above, would that count as "intellectual input ?" The first time I did it with a register it certainly involved a lot of thought !!

Eileen

Guy Etchells

25-06-2008, 06:48 PM

;) Yes. ;)

That reminds me of an incident a few years ago when my friend and business partner Angela wanted to check the Bishop's Transcripts of a parish that had been transcribed by a FHS. She thought they might extend further back than the transcriptions.

We both ordered films for the relevant parishes we required, me a Leicestershire parish she a Yorkshire parish.
My parish was written, as many Leicestershire registers, in clear reasonably sized writing about three lines to an inch.
The Yorkshire register was written in typical Yorkshire fashion ;) ten lines to an inch with the writing extending round holes in the vellum not a centimetre was wasted.
Just to cap it off my vicars used good strong ink with plenty of pigment, the Yorkshire register, yes, watered down faded ink.

I think Angela would definitely say she expended much intellectual effort that day.
Cheers
Guy

BeeE586

26-06-2008, 02:03 PM

My commiserations to Angela - been there, done that, got the T shirt. But it is a great feeling of achievement when it's fnished.

Eileen

KDSBD

15-07-2008, 06:31 PM

Well, I think that far from being the "death of FHS" the Internet should be the rebirth!
My FHS was the first "Net-based" Society! It started out as a conventional FHS with four Journals a year and a yearly subscription.
As the Society is a specialized one, and not a geographical type, we had members spread all over the world. Due to this, I also did most of the work myself!
The cost of adminstering, printing, postage etc. kept rising and the work entailed in keeping the Society running was immense. In fact I had little time for much else. I had real problems getting members to take on any kind of task to help.
In the end I nearly closed it down, but I was still getting lots of letters and enquiries from people all over the world.
In the end I scrapped the Journals and set up a private group, similar to this for the use of members. I included lots of downloadable material, posted articles and photos, set up a free census and BMD search service for members and then just charged a one-off membership fee.
The membership is still steadily growing and members can now contact each other directly by email and post. The census search is very popular and members can also download pictures, articles and free back issues of some of the Journals from our site.
I am always there to answer any queries, and some of our other members take pride in assisting their fellows.

sangke

07-08-2008, 03:26 PM

I often go to the Family history fair's in Norfolk and Suffolk!! I am a member of the Suffolk Family history society and have been for the last 6 years. I have found them helpful and polite. If I want products from them. I can buy them on-line now. It's a new service they have introduced. I wish them well for the future.

And Guy!! Like you, Only to find like you said faded ink. Of Some of the Norfolk records are pretty badly faded and unreadable. Only the faint outline of ink remains. The only way to describe it is like invisble ink!!

(I have seen so many parish records dating back to the 1500's with beautiful writing in Suffolk. I love doing the research looking through the parish record's)

ash33au

07-08-2008, 04:01 PM

I think that its hard to get older people to relinquish the reigns and let the younger generation in.
I think that they should be taught about the family and make it fun for all ages.
Agree wholeheartedly on both points.

The death of Family History Societies has been in sight since the mid-seventies (when most of them started).
The reason is very simple they refuse to move with the times.
Agree on this as well.

It may be because I am in my 30s and a parent myself now, but I find that people don't seem to be so keen to dismiss me as a trespasser into their domain these days compared to 13-14 years ago when I started researching as a 19yo country boy.

As for the copyright situation... As a professional journalist, I can speak from experience. If I provide a written or photographic submission to a publication, the publisher has the legal rights to one commercial usage at the prescribed fee. Any additional usage will incur a payment to myself being 65% of the original fee or will otherwise be deemed a breach of copyright.
I would say in comparison, that if you were to take the time to transcribe a heap of registers for your own usage, then using them elsewhere in the original format would be deemed a breach of copyright. Also taking into account that bdm registers and censuses are government property, then you can be 100% certain the government of whichever country you live in has a law determining just how much information you can a) have access to and b) re-use elsewhere.

sangke

07-08-2008, 04:31 PM

I have never met any bias when I have done research only eagerness to help! Suffolk has moved with the times. I suppose it depends which society you are with! They all don't deserve to be tared with the same brush!

Guy Etchells

07-08-2008, 06:36 PM

As for the copyright situation... As a professional journalist, I can speak from experience. If I provide a written or photographic submission to a publication, the publisher has the legal rights to one commercial usage at the prescribed fee. Any additional usage will incur a payment to myself being 65% of the original fee or will otherwise be deemed a breach of copyright.

This is not quite the same as it is rather straying into licencing agreements rather than copyright.

I would say in comparison, that if you were to take the time to transcribe a heap of registers for your own usage, then using them elsewhere in the original format would be deemed a breach of copyright. Also taking into account that bdm registers and censuses are government property, then you can be 100% certain the government of whichever country you live in has a law determining just how much information you can a) have access to and b) re-use elsewhere.

The 1988 Copyright Act determines Crown copyright, this is what controls copyright in England & Wales.
163 Crown copyright

(3) Crown copyright in a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work continues to subsist—
(a) until the end of the period of 125 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was made, or
(b) if the work is published commercially before the end of the period of 75 years from the end of the calendar year in which it was made, until the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which it was first so published.
I.E. anything made (for the UK government, census, civil registers etc) before 1883 is out of copyright.
Anything after unless commercially published is still in copyright.
B means any bought certificate which is over 50 years old (the actual physical certificate itself not a modern copy of the register) is out of copyright.

Cheers
Guy