info from St. Philips church Lancashire

[mykin]

Hello, In searching for my gr. gr. gr. grandparents I am lost on what to do next. Caleb James Wroe ( gr. gr. )b.1830 in West Derby. Baptised at St. Silas church. His father was *JAMES WROE* and that is who I am seeking now.All I know is his name and birth approx. is 1800. Would there be any information at the library with this bit of information?? Is West Derby in the location of St. Silas Church? Thank you, doe/canada

[SharonK]

St Silas church appears to be in Toxteth Park which was in the sub-district of West Derby between 1837 and 1880 see links...

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Liverpool/index.html

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Liverpool/Toxteth/indexph.html

This church wasn't open though in 1800 so his father's baptism couldn't be there.

Do you have them on the 1841 census?

Sharon

[SharonK]

sorry me again...

looking at the IGI I am thinking that Caleb James Wroe was baptised aged 15 at St John's, Old Haymarket, Liverpool and it was his son Caleb William Wroe that was baptised at St Silas in 1851??

Incidentally, if you don't have the info, I found Caleb Wroe on the 1841 census as a male servant to a wine merchant Robert Nixon in Liverpool aged 10.

hope this helps a bit, might try and keep digging for you :)

[SharonK]

me again...

I think its likely that James Rowe married Hannah Whit at St Peter, Liverpool 26 Aug 1819 as there is only one James Rowe in Liverpool in 1841 and he is married to a Hannah. No 100% definite though. I know that doesn't tell you when he was born but its a bit more info if you didn't already have it.

Sharon

[mykin]

Hi sharonk, Many thanks for your help. I was just going to go online to see if anyone had access to census 1841. On Caleb James (and wife Alice) marriage cert.it just gave the father, *James.* Among Caleb James children there is the first girl named Hannah, so I think that you got that one right on.What is IGI?....Another son, John L was found at your library, d.o.b. 1850.....Caleb William no d.o.b. but baptised 1851 at St. Silas ....something seems wrong here.... all the other children were baptised at St. Peters. So if James first two? sons were baptised at St Silas, James must have lived in the area then. I wonder if James got married in St. Silas? That is where I am at now. I know that James had one son Caleb James, and he married a Hannah.Any other help that you can help me with would be greatly appreciated. My grandfather always said the Wroe family came from Wales so I am very curious. doe

[SharonK]

You say the father is listed as James on Caleb's marriage certificate? Does it also give his occupation? If so is he a house painter?

Am trying to piece things together for you - just need as much info as you possibly have please.

Thanks!

Sharon

[mykin]

Hi sharonk, yes, the mar. cert. shows that James was a "painter." They all lived at/on Cheapside.(street, town?) (James born 1801, ancestry) You are very kind to help me, I thank you. doe

[uksearch]

Anybody heared of Wirral. I thought that she would have contributed to this thread. She doesn't seem to have been on for some time.

UK

[mykin]

Hi sharonk, me again. I was looking again at the job, and to me it looks like printer, so I emailed the registrar and they said it looked like painter. The pen seemed to blot a bit on the copy of the original. Also, Caleb's job was "publican" I will have to look that one up.I thank you again. Finding an answer is like Christmas Morn is it not? doe

[SharonK]

I have to apologise - I must have had a dizzy moment |blush| The marriage of James Wroe and Hannah Whit cannot be yours because its 1719 not 1819! Sorry! I misread it in my excitement of finding something that seemed to fit so well!!

I can't see a marriage that would fit in really - do you know his mother's name from anything at all? Its unfortunate that at the age of 10 he is already living out of the household so you cannot link him with his parents that way. And we must be careful as, believe it or not, there are two James and Hannah Wroe's in Lancashire! although one couple seem to be based around Middleton nr Oldham.

If we are to take it that James Wroe was a House Painter then I do have a James Wroe with that occupation living at 81 Peter St, Liverpool in 1851 with his wife Hannah both aged 57. He is from Salford (which is nr Manchester) and she is from Liverpool. This would make them both born around 1794 and there is a baptism of a James Wroe on 2 Apr 1793 at Holy Trinity Salford to a Thomas and Sarah Wroe. This is only speculative though and can't be taken as concrete information as its taken from the IGI (international genealogical index) which isn't a complete set of records.
%0 a James Wroe with that occupation living at 81 Peter St, Liverpool in 1851 with his wife Hannah both aged 57. He is from Salford (which is nr Manchester) and she is from Liverpool. This would make them both born around 1794 and there is a baptism of a James Wroe on 2 Apr 1793 at Holy Trinity Salford to a Thomas and Sarah Wroe. This is only speculative though and can't be taken as concrete information as its taken from the IGI (international genealogical index) which isn't a complete set of records.</P>
The same couple are at Dawson Ct (think its Ct for Court not St for Street) in Liverpool and with them they have a John Rowe aged 20 (rounded age) (also a Painter) and Betsy who is 2. Do you know the names of any of Caleb's brothers and sisters?

I can't see James and Hannah on the 1861 census but there are possibilties for their deaths in Liverpool on Free BMD between 1851 and 1861 but can't confirm it is definitely them.

This is proving harder than I thought....! :confused:

[mykin]

You have found James and his wife. When you said Hannah it had a familiar ring to it. I found a piece of paper that I had to go and get enlarged a lot. I don't know the year but it says....James Wroe...40....painter, some letter after painter. Hannah.....40. John....20....painter. I was given John as a son of Caleb James a while ago but he has to be James son, because Caleb's son was baptised in Nov. 6,*1851* at St. Silas (Caleb William) no birth date on him. I couldn't make out the address until you mentioned Dawson C.that's it. James surname was spelled Wroe which is right. What I don't understand is why Caleb James was working at a wine merchants at the age of 10. Robert Nixon's son was only 5, so maybe he needed him to do some kind of work for him.pretty sad! I don't know any of James children, but if John was 20 and Betsy was 2, sounds like a few are missing.This is excellent , you are so lucky to be able to see these books. How fortunate the records were kept. now to start and put all the pieces together. If I send for James & Hannah's marriage cert, then I will have their parents, hopefully. The first couple from 1719 could very well be my people. The name Wroe is rare. doe

[SharonK]

My previous message doesn't seem to have been posted correctly towards the end. It was meant to say that the Dawson Ct details are actually the 1841 census entry so this matches with the information you already had. The child called Betsy aged 2 may not be the daughter of James and Hannah as relationships are not stated on the 1841 census - she could be the daughter of the other member of the household John or another relation altogether!

While you say the name Wroe is rare it is transcribed a lot as Rowe, Row, Roe so with all the variations there are quite a lot! So the other entry of a James and Hannah marriage may be yours but its not certain.

Caleb as a male servant at the age of 10 is not really that unusual, children were often working at a very young age. In Lancashire a lot of them worked in the cotton industry.

[SharonK]

Continued.....these messages are posting really oddly!!

I don't look in books for the information. I have an Ancestry subscription and pay and annual subscriptions for access to lots of records. Another good source is the IGI (International Genealogical Index) which is compiled by the Latter Day Saints but the information can be patchy as not all records have been transcribed and even where some churches are covered not all years have been done.


You won't be able to send for James and Hannah's marriage certificate because a) we don't know when they married (the earlier entry I mentioned is obviously way too early as I misread it) and b) you can't get marriage certificates before 1837 when civil registration was introduced (and its likely that James and Hannah married before this date). Pre-1837 you must rely on parish records only.

I don't really know how much further I can take this but let me know if you need anything else specific.

Sharon

[mykin]

Hi again, I went online and couldn't find a church called Holy Trinity Salford. There is one on Chapel St. called Sacred Trinity Salford, and there is several Holy Trinity something else, not Salford. Where was it that you saw the name of where James baptism took place?
The name Wroe in a book of names I got out from the library, set the name Wroe aside from Roe,Rowe. It said "the rare dialectal spelling of Wroe, etc.
that's all.
I don't get much from family search (mormans/Latter day Saints)It is o.k. for starting out, and ancestry is $375. u.s. here, extremely expensive. If you would check the name of the church again I would really appreciate it. Thanks , doe

[SharonK]

Actually looking at it again - I found the possible baptism on FamilySearch - there are actually two entries - one which says James Wroe to Thos/Sarah Wroe, Holy Trinity Salford, 2 Apr 1793 and another which says James Wroe to Thomas/Sarah Wroe, Sacred Trinity Salford, 2 Apr 1792 - so obviously one of them is incorrect with the year and perhaps in those days the church was called Holy Trinity not Sacred Trinity, I don't know?

I am not saying the name Wroe is common, far from it, I'm sure it is pretty rare, its just that quite often with a name like that it can be transcribed wrongly. If for example they couldn't read or write and they said their name to the registrar or the census recorders they could easily take it as Row, Roe, Rowe and that's how it would appear in the records regardless of whether that's how its really spelt. It just means that when looking for records you can't wholly discount things that aren't spelt as Wroe.

[uksearch]

The correct name is Sacred Trinity but it is often referred to as Holy Trinity, however that's a story for another time.

UK

[Wirral]

Anybody heared of Wirral. I thought that she would have contributed to this thread. She doesn't seem to have been on for some time.

UKHi All
Don't want to brag (yes I do!), but I've just come back from a cruise on the Med. :D
Cheapside is one of the old streets in Liverpool, running between Tithebarn St & Dale St.
Doe, We have been in correspondence before. Is there anything that I said I would look up for you but haven't replied on yet? My memory is like a sieve these days (too much sunshine, food & alcohol?). I may have stuff written in my notebook, but you will have to jog my memory to help me find it.

[uksearch]

Why go the Med when you could have had a cruise here on the mainland;) ? Seriously, I really feel for those poor souls out there suffering the floods, power cuts and the water cut.

UK

[mykin]

Hi Wirral, It sounds like you had a great holiday, good for you, it is nice to get away from it all for a while.
No, you weren't looking anything up for me, we finished that, with a lot of help from pegasus.
I sent for the marriage record of Caleb James Wroe, b. 1830, West Derby, Lanc. He married Alice Laycock b.1824,Ewood Bridge, Lancashire. June 26,1848. In St. Philips church. They were living on Cheapside Rd.
All I have is *James* for the father,(a painter)of course no mother mentioned.
Caleb was his 1st son, so James was probably born late 1790's. Their church has been St. Peters up to that. Do you have any suggestions to find James wife. So far the name has kept the right spelling *Wroe* Too bad there aren't more census! any suggestion would be appreciated. doe

[Wirral]

I've looked through the Liverpool trade directories & there are only 2 mentions of James.

1829 & 1830 WROE James, painter & glazier, 18 Peter St.
After that, the next WROE entry is in 1837.
1837 WROE Matthew, joiner, 35 Cheapside; shop, Cheapside Alley.
1839 WROE Matthew, joiner, shop, 79 Cheapside.
1841, 1843, 1845, WROE Matthew, joiner & builder, 79 Cheapside; shop, Cheapside Alley, 41 Cheapside.
1847 WROE Matthew, joiner & builder, 79 Cheapside; shops, 10 Smithfield St & Cheapside Alley, 41 Cheapside.
1849 WROE Matthew, joiner & tripe dealer [?!], 79 Cheapside.
1855 WROE Caleb James, plumber & provision dealer, 3 Pembroke Gardens.

There are no WROEs in the directories from 1766 - 1827.

[mykin]

Hi Wirral, Hmmm, Iwonder where James went. My grandfather always used to talk about "they came from Wales" but as very few people were doing genealogy in those days nobody questioned him. There is a A. Mostyn Wroe, b.1868, son of Caleb James, who is the son of James. I always thought this was a strange name until I found Mostyn/Wales, just across thr River Mersey from Liverpool. (not far from Wirral, is this where your ancestor trail led you?)
I think for now I will concentrate on his b.m.d. I did see Hannah in the 1841 census, but only know of one son (Caleb J.)so far. Maybe Mathew is a son also. It got confusing as three churches were involved in their lives in Lancashire. Caleb J. marriage cert. only shows the father. I believe that Caleb James was baptised at St.Johns, (Old Haymarket? a town?)1844, I should send for his birth certificate and that should give me his mothers name.thank you for your research,Wirral, I appreciate it, doe

[Wirral]

I believe that Caleb James was baptised at St.Johns, (Old Haymarket? a town?)1844,Old Haymarket is a street/area in the centre of Liverpool, literally a couple of hundred yards from Liverpool Records Library. St John's church was by the site now occupied by the gardens of St George's Hall.

[mykin]

Hi Wirral, Thanks for that, I will look that up. Hopefully, when I send for the baptism cert. for Caleb James, it will have his mother on it. It really bothers me that mothers were deemed so unimportant. doe

[Wirral]

Hopefully, when I send for the baptism cert. for Caleb James, it will have his mother on it. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a baptism certificate, other than one that may possibly have been given to the family at the time of the event. If there isn't one handed down through your family, then it very unlikely to exist.
Caleb James WROE was baptised as a teenager, at the same time as his sister
Sarah Elizabeth WROE & another WROE, possibly another sister. Unlike a usual baptism after birth, these late baptisms have no parents named.
Sarah Elizabeth WROE married William James CLARKE in 1849, was widowed, then married Joseph BICKLEY in 1859. Her father was James WROE, a painter.
Matthew WROE married Anne HARRINGTON in 1839. Both had been widowed. His father was John WROE, a joiner.
Let me know if you want copies of the above 3 marriages. I can't remember if I have already sent them to you.

[mykin]

Hi Wirral,
I just sat down to send for Caleb's baptism info when I got your email,thank you very much.
No, you didn't send anything on Caleb's sisters. I don't have anything on his siblings at all. I would be very pleased if you sent the copies of the girl's marriages, and Mathew's and names of whoever else is showing up in the family. I often think that if all of this was available when the grandparents were alive, it would be a wonderful thing for them to hear it all. I know it brings me closer to them. For that I thank everybody who has helped me. doe