A Pettitt?Poulter Mystery

[lostfamilies]

Hello Everyone
It my Pettit (Pettitt)/ Poulter mystery, Here is what I have & would love to have some thoughts as to what you all think.

1844 Julia Jane Stigwood marries a John Pettit (signed Pettett) he a labourer have marriage cert. it does not state X for mark of mother
1851 Census Gives the family as Pettett with parents & children
1851 5th March I have a birth for a William Poulter (a twin so the record office said) Julia Jane Poulter formerly Stigwood X mark as informant Mother Father's occup Carter
1857 Hannah Pettit father John Pettit Coal Carter mother Julia Jane Pettit formerly Stigwood
1861 Census gives the family as Pettit father's occupation Labourer it shows both William & Hannah there plus older children & younger ones.
1871 Census it shows family as Poulter John's occupation Butcher, Julia is there as is William age 17 Butcher, Hannah 12 plus younger children.
1875 Hannah marries & gives her as Hannah Poulter father John Butcher (have cert)
1881 Census family Poulter John a Butcher, Julia is there & a Thomas age 25 Ag Lab & a Samuel age 14 Hannah is a widow with two children
1884 Hannah remarries in Bloomsbury London gives John Poulter butcher as father (have cert)
1889 There is a Death of a John Poulter (am waiting on cert)
1891 Census Julia widow Dealer & butcher there is a son James ag lab age 46 (he only ever shows on 1851 census) Samuel age 28 Butcher
1891 Census shows a Thomas Pettett age 36 Ag Lab with wife & family
1899 Samuel Marriage cert give him as Samuel Pettit Poulter Butcher father John Pettit Poulter
1901 Census shows a Thomas P Poulter ag lab with family does match names with the 1891 census
1901 Census Samuel age 34 butcher wife Julia 30 & Julia widow age 77 Mother is there
1903 Death of a Julia Poulter am waiting on Death Cert.

So far I have not found a death for a John Pettit or various spellings & no marriage to a John Poulter.

Would I now be right for what ever reason saying that John Pettit & John Poulter are one of the same & can anyone say why the names change from the different years at first I thought that Julia had remarried but when I was inputting Hannah's birth today & clicked to sort the children I saw that William is a Poulter for sure as I have his birth certificate, I had been looking for Hannah's for years under Poulter because of William's but only just found Hannah (which was very difficult to read on the GRO Index) & received the cert today which confirms not only surname but mother's name both the same.

So any help as how to put this family down as well to what is going on, thanks if you managed to read down to here

[Geoffers]

1844 Julia Jane Stigwood marries a John Pettit (signed Pettett) he a labourer have marriage cert. it does not state X for mark of mother
....1851 5th March I have a birth for a William Poulter (a twin so the record office said) Julia Jane Poulter formerly Stigwood X mark as informant Mother Father's occup Carter
1899 Samuel Marriage cert give him as Samuel Pettit Poulter Butcher father John Pettit Poulter
Would I now be right for what ever reason saying that John Pettit & John Poulter are one of the same & can anyone say why the names change from the different years
Hello
Looking at the 1881 census there are a lot of Poulters and Pettits in and around Kirtling and Woodditton, do I take it that all your records are from this same area? If so, then you probably are on the right track and a possible reason for the change of surname is illegitimacy. I'd suggest looking at the parish registers for the area to see if there is a baptism of a John Pettit/Poulter around 1820-ish (you may have to check for several years after this as late baptism became more common in the 19th century).
Also check the Parish registers for a possible marriage between Poulter and Pettit, sometime after John's birth.

Do Cambs R.O have any records of Bastardy Bonds? - in case the parents of John didn't marry and the mother sought an order.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[lostfamilies]

The 1881 census is for Cottage Kirtling where Hannah Murkin is there with her two children & John & Julia Poulter & family, as i always had it they were her parents.
I looked from the 1861 census to 1871 where i can't find any death for John Pettitt or marriage of Julia to John Poulter or anyone.
As you say there are a lot of the families around names that have come up are the STIGWOOD PETTITT & POULTER & a few MURKIN(MERKIN). the one thing that has not changed from 1844 the time Julia Jane STIGWOOD married is her & why if it a illegitimacy thing have in 1851 a child given as father POULTER 1857 PETTIT & 1861 use that name but 1871 change back to POULTER it the swapping around that is throwing me as i can't understand why it chops & changes even the sons add PETTITT or go by it at some point or at least 2 for sure.
As for the Bastardy Bonds I have never heard of these could you tell me a bit more about them, I will be seeing what i can find out on the bapt of John Pettetit as i know his father is given as John Pettit labourer & one of the witness on his marriage is a Elizabeth Pettit many thanks for your suggestions & help

Hello
Looking at the 1881 census there are a lot of Poulters and Pettits in and around Kirtling and Woodditton, do I take it that all your records are from this same area? If so, then you probably are on the right track and a possible reason for the change of surname is illegitimacy. I'd suggest looking at the parish registers for the area to see if there is a baptism of a John Pettit/Poulter around 1820-ish (you may have to check for several years after this as late baptism became more common in the 19th century).
Also check the Parish registers for a possible marriage between Poulter and Pettit, sometime after John's birth.

Do Cambs R.O have any records of Bastardy Bonds? - in case the parents of John didn't marry and the mother sought an order.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[Guy Etchells]

I think you are possibly following two different families, though it is hard to tell without full information.
It could be that
1, John PETTETT who married in 1844 was illegitimate and used the alias POULTER.
2, Poulter was his occupation and mitatenly entered as his surname (A poulter or poulterer deals with poultry as a butcher deals with meat, the occupation is often combined.)
3, John intentionally gave his occupation instead of his surname in order to change identity. (My father-in-law often did a similar thing. He was called ECOTT but after being misheard as SCOTT a few times he started using SCOTT as a surname when it suited him.)
4. John PETTETT died and Julia Jane married John POULTER.

This is one of those times when you really have to collect every source of information concerned. I would suggest buying copies of the birth certificates from the Local Register Office rather than from Southport, in case there has been a transcription error in the GRO copies.
Buy or view copies/microfiche of the marriage registers concerned, buy or view copies.microfiche of baptism & burial registers for the location between at least 1844 and 1900 but it would benefit to go even earlier to cover John's baptism possible around 1820 or so.
Check each census to see if there are other PETTETT or POULTER candidates
Check for bastardy orders and affiliation orders also.
Cheers
Guy

[lostfamilies]

Hi Guy
I have the marriage cert from the records office whihc shows 31/10/1844 John Pettit of Kirtling Married Julia Jane Stigwood of Wood Ditton in Wood Ditton it gives a John Pettit as father both Johns are given as Labourers with a Elizabeth Pettit as a witness the record office even sent a note saying that the signature John Pettetit was how it was in the original.

I then have the birth certificate from the records office of William Poulter it gives Julia Jane formerly Stigwood as mother father John Poulter carter.
the birth certificate i have for Hannah Pettit is a photocopy of the original again it gives Julia Jane formerly Stigwood as mother.

On the census it gives the family with Julia & John but it not until the 1871 census that John is down as a butcher & then that continues.

I could see how it may have been a different family if but for one thing the 1851 & 1857 birth certificates both show same mother even if the father's surname is not the same & by 1899 on Samuel's marriage cert it gives his name as Samuel Pettit Poulter father John Pettit Poulter so i do believe that the two John's are the same just don't know why register children under different names

Do you agree? as for why Poulter he was certainly not down as anything to do with Poultry or butchery until 1871 census
thanks for your input


I think you are possibly following two different families, though it is hard to tell without full information.
It could be that
1, John PETTETT who married in 1844 was illegitimate and used the alias POULTER.
2, Poulter was his occupation and mitatenly entered as his surname (A poulter or poulterer deals with poultry as a butcher deals with meat, the occupation is often combined.)
3, John intentionally gave his occupation instead of his surname in order to change identity. (My father-in-lawmessage=I think you are possibly following two different families, though it is hard to tell without full information.
It could be that
1, John PETTETT who married in 1844 was illegitimate and used the alias POULTER.
2, Poulter was his occupation and mitatenly entered as his surname (A poulter or poulterer deals with poultry as a butcher deals with meat, the occupation is often combined.)
3, John intentionally gave his occupation instead of his surname in order to change identity. (My father-in-law often did a similar thing. He was called ECOTT but after being misheard as SCOTT a few times he started using SCOTT as a surname when it suited him.)
4. John PETTETT died and Julia Jane married John POULTER.

This is one of those times when you really have to collect every source of information concerned.
I would suggest buying copies of the birth certificates from the Local Register Office rather than from Southport, in case there has been a transcription error in the GRO copies.
Buy or view copies/microfiche of the marriage registers concerned, buy or view copies.microfiche of baptism & burial registers for the location between at least 1844 and 1900 but it would benefit to go even earlier to cover John's baptism possible around 1820 or so.
Check each census to see if there are other PETTETT or POULTER candidates
Check for bastardy orders and affiliation orders also.
Cheers
Guy

[Geoffers]

part 1 of 2

the one thing that has not changed from 1844 the time Julia Jane STIGWOOD marriedFor me this is one of the stronger pieces of circumstantial evidence to support the idea of all you have found relating to one family. Stigwood is not a common name, add Julia Jane in front makes it more likely that this is one person - However - you do need to confirm this by checking both parish registers and 1841 census returns for the area where she was shown as being born. The thing which causes me most concern is John Pettit/Poutler's change of occupation from Carter to Butcher.

why if it a illegitimacy thing have in 1851 a child given as father POULTER 1857 PETTIT & 1861 use that name but 1871 change back to POULTER it the swapping around that is throwing me as i can't understand why it chops & changesI quite understand that this is difficult to understand and it is harder still to give a concrete answer. By exploring all the records that exist, you may come to a reasonable conclusion as to why the name changes were made, but actually proving it is almost impossible unless you are very lucky.

I'll give an example from some research I carried out: An illegitimate son was born and baptised with his mother's surname, he married and had a family. There are no surviving records to show who the father of the illegitimate child was.

In 1851 he is shown living with his mother, but his surname is different; it is just under a year since an older (married) man with the same forename and surname was buried in a neighbouring parish. I will never know for sure, but it seems possible that the man who died was the illegit child's father. it is possible that before he died, he acknowledged his illegit son - or his mother told him who his father was.
8 years later, the mother died and her illegit son had reverted to his mother's surname in the 1861 census. Was he particularly upest at his mother's death and so changed back to using her name? I'll never know - 10 years later he had changed back to the his father's(?) name.

[Geoffers]

part 2 of 2

As for the Bastardy Bonds I have never heard of these could you tell me a bit more about them,The Bastardy Act of 1733 required pregnant mother's to reveal the name of the father. The idea being that parish officials could then try to force the dad to pay for the upkeep of his child and so avoid the parish having to keep the mother and child. The father would be forced into signing a bond to either make a lump sum payment or to pay an amount over time. Many dads scarpered and warrants could be issued for their arrest - some chose marriage to the mother of the child as an alternative. Survival of such records is variable, but they can be very useful.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[lostfamilies]

I agree that the name change could have been that John was born out of Wedlock, so been looking for his Birth & the Following was found

Kirtling: John PETTITT, bap.20 April 1821, son of John PETTITT and Elizabeth

Other children of John and Elizabeth Pettitt baptised in Kirtling are:
Susannah, bap.12 Dec 1824
Elizabeth, bap.15 Jun 1828
Eliza, bap.1 Jan 1832
Samuel, bap. 24 Oct 1833

Looking back another generation, here's a possible baptism for John senior:
John Pettitt, son of Susan Pettitt, bap. 19 Dec 1797

And then there is a marriage between Samuel POULTER and Susannah
PETTIT on 3 Jan 1802 in Kirtling! This couple has one child baptised
in Kirtling - James bap. 3 Oct 1802.

The British Vital Records Index (and the IGI) has a marriage on 25
March 1819 somewhere in Suffolk between John PETTITT and Elizabeth FISHER.

Upend Hamlet, Kirtling (HO 107/65/4/6B) (1841 census
John Pettitt, 20, Ag Lab, Y
Elizebeth Pettitt, 40/45, N
Elizebeth Pettitt, 13, Y
Elizer Pettitt, 10, Y
(sharing house with Elizebeth Fisher, 80/82, N

So it is possible that John's father was why the name changed to Poulter, as for the change in occupation may be he was taken in to the family business later on in life or he was left it if he went under the name of Poulter.

The naming of children why are not proof John Jr did name a son Samuel & it is his Marriage Cert i have which shows him down as Samuel Pettit Poulter.
The Baptisms were from the BVI that someone was kind enough to look up for me

So i see that a John (was bapt in 1797) born to Susannah Pettit who in 1802 married a Samuel Poulter.
This John married in 1819 to a Elizabeth Fisher & he was either dead or not at home in 1841, they have a son John in 1821 who goes on to marry Julia Jane Stigwood

So the Poulter is John's Step or Natural Grandfather as i see it would you all argree or am i totally wrong your thoughts would be appreciated
Cheers

[Robyn Smith]

Here is the PETITT/POULTER data that is in my mainly Little Shelford database. If anything looks useful get back to me off list and I will run a report.

Pettit, Albert b 1898
Pettit, Albert Edward 09 Jul 1902 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Alice Maud 08 Nov 1891 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Andrew Vincent
Pettit, Beatrice Bertha 12 Aug 1900 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, C J
Pettit, Charles 25 Sep 1841 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Clara May c 1883
Pettit, Daisy Margaret 08 Jul 1894 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Desiree
Pettit, Doris Helena 13 Aug 1898 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Edith Elizabeth
Pettit, Edward Thomas 13 Apr 1890 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Emma c 1838
Pettit, Ernest George 13 Sep 1896 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Frederick 17 Mar 1831 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Frederick Charles b 1917
Pettit, George 07 Feb 1836 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, George 08 Sep 1861 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Gladys Ethel 12 Feb 1905 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Grace Winifred 13 Mar 1910 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Harriet 25 Feb 1838 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Harriet 13 May 1860 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Harriet Elizabeth c 1883
Pettit, James Scarr c 1879
Pettit, John 23 Jun 1833 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Lilian Monica c 1903
Pettit, Louisa &nbspB 13 May 1860 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Louisa 23 Mar 1828 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Louisa 08 Aug 1858 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, P
Pettit, Percival Albert 09 Dec 1906 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Philip 29 Dec 1822 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Phillip
Pettit, Richard Henry
Pettit, Stanley Redvers 10 Mar 1901 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Thomas c 1789 Bury St Edmonds, Suf
Pettit, Thomas 29 May 1825 All Saints, Little S
Pettit, Thomas 14 Jun 1863 All Saints, Little S
Poulter, William

[Geoffers]

I agree that the name change could have been that John was born out of Wedlock, so been looking for his Birth & the Following was found
Kirtling: John PETTITT, bap.20 April 1821, son of John PETTITT and Elizabeth
...a possible baptism for John senior:
John Pettitt, son of Susan Pettitt, bap. 19 Dec 1797
And then there is a marriage between Samuel POULTER and Susannah
PETTIT on 3 Jan 1802 in Kirtling!
So it is possible that John's father was why the name changed to Poulter.....So i see that a John (was bapt in 1797) born to Susannah Pettit who in 1802 married a Samuel Poulter.......So the Poulter is John's Step or Natural Grandfather as i see it would you all argree or am i totally wrong your thoughts would be appreciatedHello again
I would agree that this looks very promising. In transcribing parish registers, I have several times seen surname changes owing to illegitimacy in earlier generations so all that you have written would appear to be quite reasonable and should hopefully put your mind at ease about the name change - as to why he changed it precisely then, who knows? I wish you luck in trying to establish a possible reason for the timing.

As an aside, for anyone new to research who sees your last post and thinks that you have all the proof you need - what you have is someone who has very kindly looked up some entries in a partial transcript of a source.

The Vital Records Index (VRI, available on CD-rom) and International Genealogical Index (IGI) are excellent research aids to help locate entries in registers. Parish registers or the annual copy made (known as Bishop's or Archeadcon's Transcripts) usually contain more detail and you need to check them to make sure that the information you've been given is correct.
Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire