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Ed McKie
30-05-2007, 5:01 AM
Wonder if any of you erudite folks could help with a couple of points.
My Grandfather was sentenced in 1873 to six months for the theft of just over 40 pounds. He was in the army at the time and the cash was the property of his Sergeant Major (what an idiot !!)
Anyway- was 6 months a lenient sentence for this quite large sum of money at that time ?

If the money belonged to the Sgt Major, would it have not been normal for it to have been dealt with by Court Martial ?

The Sgt Major was described in a news item as "of Salford" does anyone know if there was a Army Barracks or whatever in Salford at that time ? or did it imply that he was living out of barracks. There was also a young woman involved somewhere, but I am not going to start guessing about that .

Cheers..Ed

Colin Moretti
30-05-2007, 8:57 AM
Hello Ed

Not quite the same date, but in 1858 my g grandfather got 6 years hard labour when he stole 2 gold half-sovereigns (1). Admittedly he was a postman and he stole a letter containing the money, but still ....

A few years earlier he would have been transported to Australia and I wouldn't have been writing this from Romsey.

Colin

Jack Richards
30-05-2007, 9:50 AM
I'm reasonably certain there was a Barracks in Salford and also a building/place where soldiers in yesteryear resided. I believe you will get a positive response to your question from one of our friends on the list.

I seem to remember in my days in the late '60s "fighting crime" in Manchester and Salford, there was a building close to the city boundary with Manchester, which to me from the outside indicated it was "of the army".

My memory nowadays is not good.

Somewhere in my old family history notes, I'm sure I have a record on an army ancestor being in Salford.

Hopes this helps a little.

Regards Jack

Peter Goodey
30-05-2007, 11:25 AM
How about the Infantry Barracks on Regent Road?

uksearch
30-05-2007, 1:45 PM
If you Google Salford Barracks you will find tons of information.

UK

uksearch
30-05-2007, 1:54 PM
Wonder if any of you erudite folks could help with a couple of points.
My Grandfather was sentenced in 1873 to six months for the theft of just over 40 pounds. He was in the army at the time and the cash was the property of his Sergeant Major (what an idiot !!)
Anyway- was 6 months a lenient sentence for this quite large sum of money at that time ?

Cheers..Ed
Ed, as you will know, I have spent many hours over the last three weeks, with my head in prison records.

Six months for stealing 40 was an extremely lenient sentence for that time. I think the sentence may have reflected the fact that he was a military man and that he would be more use to HMG as a fighting man rather than a prisoner. I have seen people transported for 7 or even 10 years for stealing under two pounds worth of goods...but they did have "previous".

uksearch
30-05-2007, 2:03 PM
SNIP
If the money belonged to the Sgt Major, would it have not been normal for it to have been dealt with by Court Martial ?
SNIP
Cheers..Ed
From what I can see, from the prison records for the period from about 1840 to 1880, it was not uncommon for soldiers to be tried in the civil courts. There were many case of desertion. While it was open they were sent to Belle Vue prison. Belle Vue prisoners usually served a maximum of six months but the soldiers were often sentenced to 12 months or longer. I refer only to what happened in Manchester and not elsewhere.

UK

uksearch
30-05-2007, 2:07 PM
...and while we are talking about courts. Pray, what is the difference between a Common Prostitute (normal sentence 14 days) and a Disorderly Prostitute (7 days).

UK

uksearch
30-05-2007, 2:16 PM
One of the columns in the Prison Registers is headed " How Disposed at Court".
You get the familiar sentences of 7 years transportation, 5 years penal servitude with hard labour etc. Every now and then the odd aquittal, no evidence offered or no prosecution.Then there were these No Bill Preferred, Bill Ignored and Recognizances Estreated ( which I vaguely understand).

UK

Ed McKie
31-05-2007, 4:21 AM
Thanks for all the input

Uk- when I Googled, I tried to be too clever by putting in "Army Barracks Salford" and got nothing interesting !! Salford Barracks was much more productive.

The leniency of the sentence is then a puzzle. There was no war on in 1873, and he had only been in the Army for less than two years. Just playing guessing games- the charge was Larceny and receiving, so perchance only the receiving charge was proved ?

Cheers..Ed

uksearch
04-06-2007, 1:49 PM
Thanks for all the input

Uk- when I Googled, I tried to be too clever by putting in "Army Barracks Salford" and got nothing interesting !! Salford Barracks was much more productive.

The leniency of the sentence is then a puzzle. There was no war on in 1873, and he had only been in the Army for less than two years. Just playing guessing games- the charge was Larceny and receiving, so perchance only the receiving charge was proved ?

Cheers..Ed
No, he was convicted of Larceny.
Only today I came across a two time offender who was guilty of stealing 10 shillings worth of goods. He got a very hefty 7 years transportation.

UK

Ed McKie
05-06-2007, 2:50 AM
No, he was convicted of Larceny.
Only today I came across a two time offender who was guilty of stealing 10 shillings worth of goods. He got a very hefty 7 years transportation.

UK

But was that in the same time scale of My grandad in 1873 ? Transportation to Australia ended in 1868. Not sure if they were sent elsewhere after that. I will obviously have to do a lot more research into the penal system for that time. I am guessing all the time now about this 6 month sentence. Am wondering now about his age, if that was a factor. Perhaps he was younger than I think...etc..etc.

Cheers..Ed

uksearch
05-06-2007, 8:44 PM
But was that in the same time scale of My grandad in 1873 ? Transportation to Australia ended in 1868. Not sure if they were sent elsewhere after that. I will obviously have to do a lot more research into the penal system for that time. I am guessing all the time now about this 6 month sentence. Am wondering now about his age, if that was a factor. Perhaps he was younger than I think...etc..etc.

Cheers..EdNo, that particular instance was in the late 1850s.

UK