Any Aussie Rules fans out there?

[MarkJ]

If so, you will probably have heard of Henry "Ivo" Crapp, who was an umpire back in the late 1800's and early 1900's in the Victoria Football League and the Western Australia Football League.
I have a Henry Crapp in my tree, born the correct year (1872) in the right place, but I have so far been unable to discover any family tree information about Ivo to confirm that he is the same Henry Crapp.
If some kind soul in Australia is able to discover the name of Ivo's parents, I can then confirm or reject him as part of my tree.

Many thanks,
Mark

[GeoffD]

I will ask my sister, who is a walking AFL encyclopedia. But she will probably answer "Silly Man! Umpires don't have parents, or are at least missing an acknowledged father!"
:D

[MarkJ]

:) Many thanks GeoffD!
If Ivo is indeed related, he has another sporting connection here in the UK - Jack Crapp, the England cricketer who played against the Bradman Aussie side in the 1940's and was later the umpire at several test matches.

Mark

[GeoffD]

AFL related websites have been singularly unforthcoming on the parents of Henry Ivo Crapp. Still waiting for a response from Sister.

[MarkJ]

Thanks GeoffD. Yes, I had a nose round the AFL sites, but apart from details of his date of birth and career, there seems to be no further info out there. I strongly suspect he is related to my Crapp ancestors, but his parents names - even just one of them - would clarify things.

Thanks again for your help

Mark

[GeoffD]

My sister is unaware of any documentation of Ivo's parentage, I'm afraid. And yes, she did suggest doubtful origins simple because of his umpire status. :D

So, would he be of Cornish origins, then?

[MarkJ]

One would assume so yes. The Crapp surname is a Cornish one - the family seem to all originate in the St Columb Major area. If this is the same Henry Crapp, then his father came from St Columb, but he and his siblings were all born in Australia - Carlton and Melbourne.

Thanks for asking your sister GeoffD - I appreciate it. Please thank her too for her input.
I can imagine the surname caused some interesting comments directed at the poor chap whilst he was officiating at matches!

Mark

[Procat]

Wikpedia records Henry as being born 1872 and died 20 January 1924 in Western Australia.

The Western Australia BDM indexes at:

http://www.justice.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx

has a death of Henry Crapp in 1924 but unfortunately does not record details of his parents.

The Victorian indexes records the birth of a Henry Crapp in 1872 which may be him:

Henry CRAPP
Father: Henry
Mother: Emma SNELL
Birth Place: MELB
1872
Reg Number: 24850


Genes Reunited has two people with this Henry Crapp in their tree which may shed some light on the matter.

[MarkJ]

Hi Doug,
Thanks for your info. The Henry you have listed there is the one to which I am related.
His father, Henry, was from St Columb and mother Emma Snell from St Kew, both in Cornwall.

I don't suppose Crapp was a common name in Melbourne in the latter half of the 19th century, but I had better not jump to conclusions! I marked the record of Henry as "possibly" being Henry Ivo Crapp a while back.
Did you happen to notice if any other Henry Crapps were listed for 1872 births in Melbourne? If it helps, the family seemed to live in the Carlton area of Melbourne.

I expect the two people on G-R will be people I am already in regular contact with, but I will check that out - thanks for the heads up :)
Edit: One certainly is one of my relations - the other I have not come across before, so I shall put out a feeler and see what that brings.

Again, thanks to both Doug and GeoffD for their input into my question - it is very much appreciated.

Mark

[Procat]

Hi Mark,

he was the only one.

The Australian National Archives web site at:

http://www.naa.gov.au/the_collection/gift-to-the-nation.html

may be worth a look at. If you do a search for Henry Crapp you will find a digitised WWI service record for what appears to be his his son Edward Henry Crapp. Be warned searching is slow at the moment due to high demand.

[Procat]

I have just checked the Victorian indexes for deaths to 1985 and Henry is not recorded.

There was a previous Henry born to Henry & Emma Snell in 1870 and he died in 1871.

The WWI service record for Edward Henry contains the names of his parents - Henry Crapp & Priscilla.

The Vic indexes records this marriage:

Digger - Federation Index. Victoria 1889-1901

Hy CRAPP married Priscilla HULLEY in 1895
Henry born 'CARL' (this is Carlton, suburb of Melbourne)
Reg. Number: 2666

[MarkJ]

Thanks Doug!
Yes, there was another child called Henry who died as you say in 1871.
I have six siblings for Henry (including the other Henry who died in 1871), but there could be more.
Apart from his birth details, I know little about him - so the marriage information is quite interesting. I have sent a message via G-R to the person researching Henry who I was not aware of - so perhaps that may turn up something useful!
Carlton is listed as place of birth for many of Henrys siblings, yet Melbourne itself for a couple of them (Henry 1872 and Emma Louise 1875), then back to Carlton again (John Edwin 1878). Not sure why.

Henrys parents - Henry and Emma - seem to have detoured to New Zealand on their way to Australia. In 1869 they had a daughter, Belinda, whose birth is registered as New Zealand.

Mark

[Procat]

Carlton is a suburb in Melbourne on the edge of the "city" of Melbourne.

The Royal Womens Hospital is in Carlton so it is possible that if the births were in that hospital that the place of birth was interchangable. It may be that they were home births (not uncommon at that time) and they had moved around.

There is at least one other son of Henry on the National Archives site by the way.

[Procat]

These are all the entries for births and some deaths of the children of Henry and Emma - you probably have most of them:

Pioneer Index. Victoria 1836-1888

Henry CRAPP
Father: Henry
Mother: Emma SNELL
Birth Place: EMER (probably Emerald Hill, again on the edge of the city of Melbourne)
Year: 1870 Reg Number: 15635

[Procat]

Digger - Pioneer Index. Victoria 1836-1888

Henry CRAPP
Father: Henry
Mother: Emma SNELL
Birth Place: MELB
Birth registered: 1872
Reg Number: 24850

[Procat]

Emma Louisa CRAPP
Father: Henry
Mother: Emma SNELL
Birth Place: MELB
birth registered 1875
Reg Number: 10313

[Procat]

John Edwin CRAPP
Birth Place: Carlton
birth registered in 1878
Reg Number: 13982

[Procat]

Belinda CRAPP, born New Zealand, died aged 2
death registered in 1871
Reg Number: 1044

[Procat]

Henry CRAPP, aged 7 months, born Emerald Hill, death registered in 1871
Father: Henry
Mother: Emma SNELL
Reg Number: 999

[Procat]

Thos CRAPP died aged 24, reg in 1885 at Carlton
Reg Number: 4469

[Procat]

Jas CRAPP, died aged 32, reg 1898, Melbourne East Hospital
father: Crapp Hy
mother: Emma SNELL
Reg. Number: 17422

[Procat]

Wm Hy CRAPP, death reg 1947 at Coburg, aged 83
Father: Crapp Hy
Mother: Emma SNELL
Reg Number: 344

[Procat]

John Edwin CRAPP death reg 1964, aged 84
Father: Henry
Mother: Emma SNELL
Death Place: ARMA (probably Armadale a suburb of Melbourne)
Reg Number: 8713

[MarkJ]

Many thanks once more Doug! Yes, I do have those children listed, but your further confirmation - especially with the reg numbers - is very useful. The death information on the surviving Crapp family is also very useful - I do not have those details.
Interesting that Thomas isn't there. Thomas was born in St Columb in 1861 and died in Carlton in 1885.
Now I am encouraged to look at the emigration records for Henry,Emma and Thomas from the UK. That will keep me busy for a little while this evening once I return from my evening class and a visit to the supermarket!

Mark

[Procat]

Hi Mark,

Thomas is there - seventh down (if I can count correctly).

If you have the names of the spouse of any of the kids I may be able to pick up their children in the death index to 1985.

[MarkJ]

Doug,
Thanks for that! No, I don't have details on any of the childrens marriages - but my fellow Crapp researcher may well do. I shall see what I can discover.

Mark

[Omega]

I dont want to confuse the issue but I was thinking that Crapp is not a common name and I do know one thing about a Greg Crapp who in the 1970s changed his name to Capp when he married and later moved to Brisbane late 1970s or early 1980s. Just thought if you are trying to move forward this may help. I don't know if Greg is still alive as he was sick the last contact we had with him after his marriage broke up. I don't know where he is now or if he is still alive sorry.

[MarkJ]

Thanks for the info Omega - it may help at some point. As you say, it isn't a really common surname so I would not be surprised to find he is connected.

Mark

[MarkJ]

Just thought I would update this (quite old!) thread.

I have now linked Henry "Ivo" Crapp to my family. As you said Doug, it was the Henry, son of Henry and Emma Snell :)

Apparently, one of his older brothers, William Crapp, was also "big" in Aussie Rules - he played for Carlton as a full back at the end of the 19th century.

The "Ivo" nickname apparently came from the resemblance to another famous sports person - Ivo Bligh (he of the Ashes fame).
William Crapp was first called "Ivo" because of the similarity, then Henry, when he joined Carlton as a player was given the same name...

Another little question for any Aussie Rules fans out there - Henry and William both played for Carlton, but there was another Crapp who played for them. So far, I have not identified which one it was - but we would be talking the 1880s or 1890s here....

Mark

[ChristineR]

http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php?page=W.%20Crapp

Have you seen this photo of W. Crapp ? (got a feeling I have sent the link before)
Only the two brothers are mentioned as playing in 1893 on this particular site.
Also a group one with Ivo.

The 'every player, every club' website begins at 1897, with not a Crapp on it. Three with the name of Crapper.

There is an encyclopaedia with every player since the invention of the game in 1858 - I think it goes back that far. I try and track one down.
:)

[Hugh Thompson]

I found this Mark, From the National Archives of Australia, I think they are your lot.
Hugh.:)


http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.asp?B=3454064&I=1&SE=1

And this,

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.asp?B=3454062&I=1&SE=1

And this,

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.asp?B=3454068&I=1&SE=1

[Procat]

It maybe worthwhile taking a look at this site (http://www.nla.gov.au/ndp/) Mark.

Wasn't up when you were posting previously.

[MarkJ]

Hugh, Christine and Doug -

Many thanks for your info!

It all helps to build the background for my Crapp family in Oz.

I never cease to be amazed at how good the records are for service personnel in Australia - and available to all easily.

Looks like I shall be busy later!

Mark :)