Where and when did they marry,Help Please!!

[lincs lass]

I am trying to find the marriage of Martin Norman to a Julia.
On the 1871 census it says he was born in Germany(1841)a baker, and Julia in Ireland.
It says their first child was born in 1859 in St George Middlesex.
There were 3 more children all born in St George Middlesex.
I have searched in vain could some one help me please?

Many Thanks

[Ed Bradford]

It is possible that they didn't marry and just lived together as husband and wife. I have a couple in my line that lived in that area that did just that. In the census they're listed as husband and wife. There is no marriage record for them and I suspected there was no marriage but really didn't know for sure until I got a copy of a death certificate, which was under the wife's maiden name. …………..Ed

[Peter Goodey]

...death certificate, which was under the wife's maiden nameThat's a good point.

There's absolutely no guarantee of course but some people did have a sudden rush of honesty when confronted by officialdom at a traumatic time like registering a death;)

[lincs lass]

Many thanks Ed and Peter,for your thoughts on this one.
I have also looked for a death for Martin Norman,but I can't find that either,so I can't get a death certificate.
I am not having much luck with this family.
I did find their son,also a Martin Norman in an orphanage in 1881,so I have looked for deaths around that time.But I am still searching.I am waiting for the sons birth certificate to arrive,hopefully it will be the right one when I get it!!

Thanks again

[Ed Bradford]

We've had discussions about certificates on this web site in the past. A basic summary of the conclusions that we've come to is that there was no real incentive to obtain a birth certificate other than staying within the law. A marriage certificate would be available if they were truly married. You'll usually find a death certificate because they had this body to get rid of.

Unfortunately, the death certificate may not tell you much. Most of the death certificates that I have, simply give the person's name, date of death and reason for the death. Sometimes some other family member's name is on it but the relationship to the deceased is not defined.

I wish I could be more help. …………..Ed

[lincs lass]

Hi Ed,thanks for your help.
I got the copy of the sons birth certificate later today.
BUT either the registrar has made a mistake or I have the wrong son!!
I asked for the birth certificate for Martin Norman born Sept Qtr 1869 Mile End,
I got.....Martin Norman born 27th May..1860 registered 6th July1869 Mile End.
I have sent a message off asking the registrar to please check is it really 1860..??
I dont think this lot want to be found !!!!

Thank you once again

[DebbieAnn]

I noticed that in the 1871 census, Martin Norman was living in St. Saviour's Southwark in London. There is a death for Julia Martin in St. Saviour's in Dec qtr 1871 (vol 1d, pg 59) that may have been his wife. She was age 27 at death. It might be worth sending for this certificate, as it may reference her marriage to Martin or her father's name - giving you her maiden name...

Debbie

[lincs lass]

Hi Debbie,thank you for looking for me.
The Martin Norman I am after is in the 1871 census mistranscribed as Martin ROMAN,he has a wife Julia and his son Martin is also there.
And the place is right St George in the East Middlesex.On the actual census form it is clearly NORMAN
But this is the only census that I can find them on,until 1881 when Martin jr is in an orphanage,and no sign of the rest of the family..brother Thomas and sisters Margret and Rose.
But the Julia you found could well be the wife,maybe they moved.
Thank you again

[DebbieAnn]

I also noticed there is in 1871 only one other Norman family from Germany. They are in Brighton, Sussex. Nathan, head of this family, and a boot and shoe merchant, is of an age to have been Martin's brother (59 - but on the original it looks like 52, instead) - in the event that Martin did not immigrate by himself, I went looking for other possible family members.

Nathan's wife, born in Paris, and her mother are also living in this household, as is an 8-yr-old son Jacob and a 4 yr old daughter. In 1881, Jacob and his sister are still living with their parents, but they are living in Paddington, Marylebone, London. Nathan is now listed as being born in Prussia and is now only 54 years old - but it is definitely the same family!

Another Jacob, age 35, is a tailor in Whitechapel, London - he was also born in Germany. Perhaps he was another brother?

In 1861, Nathan, born in Prussia and listed as a tailor, is living in Cambridgeshire with his brother George. Both are unmarried at this point. Nathan was married to Celestine Jacobs in Brighton, Sussex in Mar qtr 1862 (vol 2b pg 287). George was married to Rose Lyons in Plymouth, Devon in Sep qtr 1861 (vol 5b pg 497).

Sending for these 2 marriage certificates may have value in the future, if you are able definitively to determine if they are siblings of Martin...

Debbie

[DebbieAnn]

I took a look at the 1871 census you mentioned - it is definitely Martin Norman. However, the ages appear to be off - their oldest child is 12, which would make Julia 13 at her birth (pregnant at 12), and Martin would have been 18!! Subsequent children were born in short order, but the Julia Martin death I found matches this age for her... If she was indeed that young at Margaret's birth, it might explain why you can find no marriage...

Debbie

[lincs lass]

Thanks Debbie,for all your work in helping me.
If Julia was that young when her first child was born,as you say, maybe that is why there is no marriage to be found.

I reckon Martin must have died by 1881 as I can find no death for him...unless he legged it back to Germany and took the rest with him!!

So more searching....

thank you very much it is much appreciated.