Training Vessels

[busyglen]

Having traced my brother-in-law's father, who was found in a workhouse in Liverpool on the 1891 Census age 3, with his mother, I tried to find him on the 1901 Census. The only one that I could find that looks as if it could be him, was found on the District Training Ship Indefatigable, Cheshire. He was shown as 13 and training for Seamen.

My question is....could he have had this training and then gone on to join the Army? He later joined the Army by increasing his age and stayed until he was injured in the War.

Would the Workhouse have sent him and others for this training as ways of `getting rid' of the youngsters?

Glenys

[ChristineR]

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?trainingships/trainingships.shtml
He may have been undergoing the preliminary training prior to joining the Navy.

ChristineR

[busyglen]

Thank you Christine, that explains a lot. I should have thought to look via the Workhouse myself, but didn't quite make the connection.

From what is said, all boys didn't go into the Navy, so it is quite feasible for this boy to have gone into the army instead.

Again, many thanks. :)

Glenys

[Maureenmcb]

Hi, sorry to butt in but my late grandfather was also brought up in an orphanage, though in London, and they too sent boys for training on Naval Training ships. The one my grandfather was sent onto was T S Exmouth and I believe it was moored in Grays, Essex.

It was common practice for workhouse boys to be sent into naval and other types of training which was supposed to provide them with a skill/job and release their workhouse/orphanage place for another child to be taken in.

His 3 sisters were groomed as servants which is what they did with the girls.

My grandfather hated every minute on the training ship saying that the life was harsh and the regime gruelling. After his training he volunteered for the T.A., and in 1915 was drafted into the Liverpool Regiment.

We always wondered how he came to be a Londoner in Liverpool and this is how we found out.

[busyglen]

Thank you Maureen. :)

I had just seen your message and was about to reply to you, when I saw you had posted a message on my query.

I was very interested in what you said, especially as I had been looking further into Workhouses and Training ships. The fact that you were able to clarify that although your grandfather went to a Naval Training ship, he later went into the TA, was a great help. I couldn't quite understand why someone would go to a Naval TS and end up in the Army.

Many thanks, and I hope you manage to find the information you are seeking. I know what it is like trying to find the `roots' in a situation like this. My gt.gt. grandfather was illegitimate, and I `believe' his mother went into the Workhouse, but I don't know her christian name. I know his father's name which was different to his mother's but trying to trace them is very hard....especially when a lot happened pre-1837.

Good luck.

Glenys

[Wirral]

Hi Glenys
Liverpool Central Library has the workhouse records. The ones for Brownlow Hill are very full, the ones for the other workhouses much less so. I was looking at them only yesterday!

[busyglen]

Oh, that's interesting! My BiL's father and grandmother were in Walton, W.Derby on the 1891 Census. Do you know off hand whether there are any records on-line, or via fiche or disk available?

Thanks for the information. :)

Glenys

[Mutley]

Glenys,
The workhouse link given above also has some in Derby. If you search Walton, Derby quite a few pages come up and I notice it gives 1881 census so maybe further on it will give 1891.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/

Regards
Mutley

[Wirral]

Hi Glenys
None on-line, but I am going to the library in a couple of weeks if you want to send me any details. I can't go on my usual trip there next week, cos I've just booked a last-minute cruise to the Nile & Red Sea!|woohoo| Now that will be looking at really old dead-dudes! :)

[busyglen]

Wow! How wonderful. Hope you have a really fabulous time. Let us know how you got on when you get back won't you?

Thank you for the offer, I will send you some info later, that is really kind of you. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Glenys,
The workhouse link given above also has some in Derby. If you search Walton, Derby quite a few pages come up and I notice it gives 1881 census so maybe further on it will give 1891.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/

Regards
Mutley

Sorry Mutley, I missed your reply! :o

Thank you for that link. I had found this earlier when I discovered both Charles and his mother Margaret were in this workhouse on the 1891 Census.
I don't know where she was on the 1881 Census, but she was in Canterbury Kent in 1888 when Charles was born and living in the workhouse there. I believe she had a sister in this part of the country, who possibly didn't want to know when she became pregnant. I suspect, that she went home to Liverpool after the birth, and was disowned by the family, and ended up in the workhouse there. I couldn't find her on the 1901 when I searched (Ancestry during their `free period') so she may have moved by then.

She eventually moved onto Sheppey, Kent where she married and had more children.

Thanks for your interest. :)

Glenys

[Wirral]

What was the surname of Charles & Margaret? I can't find them on the 1891 census.

[busyglen]

What was the surname of Charles & Margaret? I can't find them on the 1891 census.

The surname is WILLIAMS. Piece No. RG12/2981. I printed it out, but doesn't have the folio number. Margaret is on page 4 and Charles on page 6 of the Institution. Both shown as being born Liverpool, Lancs, although for Charles, this was incorrect as he was born in Kent. 1888. I can't make out Margaret's age, but Charles is shown as 3 which is about right.

Glenys

[busyglen]

I am visiting my Sister & BiL this morning and will check to see when Margaret was born. They know her age at death, but whether this was correct or not am not too sure. The age given on the 1891 Census looks like 37 to me, but I think she was youngish when she had Charles, possibly 21. I still feel that this is the right Charles and Margaret though.

Glenys

[busyglen]

Well.....even more confused now! Have just got back from my sisters, and have gleaned the following information.

Margaret's death cert. shows she was 92 on 3.12.1956. (Apparently the Dr. said he thought she was nearer 100!). This would give a birth of around 1864.

On the 1891 Census, the piece I referred to, she is shown as 27, giving her birth around 1864 also.

She married Benjamin Dixon in Canterbury May 1897 giving her age as 28. If 1864 is correct for her birth year, then she lied about her age, as 6 years earlier, on the Census, she was 27!

She was illiterate and couldn't write her name, so it's quite possible that she didn't know her age, although her father James was Tailor and believed to have been literate.

It looks as if Margaret came to Canterbury, Kent around 1887/8 to visit her sister Martha. She was either pregnant, or got pregnant whilst there and had Charles in the Workhouse. We then find her in Walton, Workhouse in 1891 with Charles. By 1901 Charles is on the `Indefatigable Training Ship', but Margaret was back in Kent, as she married Benjamin Dixon in Canterbury in 1897.

It would be very interesting to know when Margaret left the Workhouse. Also my BiL says that his father told him he went to Canterbury and saw a man hanged outside the prison when he was a youngster. So....did he go there before he joined the Army, or would he have been able to leave the Training ship to travel?

I'd welcome any thoughts on this.

Glenys

[Maureenmcb]

Thank you Maureen. :)

I had just seen your message and was about to reply to you, when I saw you had posted a message on my query. I was very interested in what you said, especially as I had been looking further into Workhouses and Training ships. The fact that you were able to clarify that although your grandfather went to a Naval Training ship, he later went into the TA, was a great help. I couldn't quite understand why someone would go to a Naval TS and end up in the Army. Many thanks, and I hope you manage to find the information you are seeking. I know what it is like trying to find the `roots' in a situation like this. My gt.gt. grandfather was illegitimate, and I `believe' his mother went into the Workhouse, but I don't know her christian name. I know his father's name which was different to his mother's but trying to trace them is very hard....especially when a lot happened pre-1837. Good luck. Glenys

Thanks Glenys, We don't have any idea at all what my grandmother's name was and he said she 'left them on the workhouse orphanage steps' and he never saw her again.

Although his father's name is given as Charles ROBERTS, Electrical Engineer (deceased), on my grandparents' wedding certificate in 1916 we have no idea if this is true because I have since learned that something that often happened with abandoned kids was that -

the person who found them was the person who's surname the authorities gave the children!!!

Now, if this is true, I imagine that without their mother's name, there is no way of tracing a relative back if they were brought up in an orphanage.

After years of hitting brick walls I wonder if it's worthwhile continuing to try to trace his origins.

[Mutley]

Glenys,

Also my BiL says that his father told him he went to Canterbury and saw a man hanged outside the prison when he was a youngster. So....did he go there before he joined the Army, or would he have been able to leave the Training ship to travel?
This link lists all the hangings in the UK (and some elsewhere).
It also has the history of Maidstone Prison and the hangings that took place there. Canterbury and Maidstone are nearby. I haven't looked that closely but if there is one it would give you a date for Charles in that area.

http://www.blacksheepancestors.com/uk/executions.shtml

Mutley

[busyglen]

Thanks Mutley,

Nearly missed this message as something strange is going on. I couldn't get into New Posts, and had to come in via my original entry.

That's really interesting, especially as nothing appears to be recorded for Canterbury. As you say, Maidstone isn't that far away. I'm wondering if my BiL got it wrong, and his dad actually saw it in Liverpool. I must admit, I never thought of looking for the hanging as a way of tracing when he was in Canterbury, but I will now go and have a look to see if there is anything specific for Canterbury anywhere.

Glenys

[busyglen]

Thanks Glenys, We don't have any idea at all what my grandmother's name was and he said she 'left them on the workhouse orphanage steps' and he never saw her again.

Although his father's name is given as Charles ROBERTS, Electrical Engineer (deceased), on my grandparents' wedding certificate in 1916 we have no idea if this is true because I have since learned that something that often happened with abandoned kids was that -

the person who found them was the person who's surname the authorities gave the children!!!

Now, if this is true, I imagine that without their mother's name, there is no way of tracing a relative back if they were brought up in an orphanage.

After years of hitting brick walls I wonder if it's worthwhile continuing to try to trace his origins.

Yes it is very difficult indeed in these sort of situations. Like you, I keep deciding to `give up' on trying to find new clues. But...then something turns up which makes me try again. I would dearly love to find out what happened to my John's mother, but without any record of her name, it's nigh on impossible.

I guess we are not the only one's to `lose' families through lack of information. I was struck recently by reading some local deaths, where they were just shown as `stranger, found on beach' or `stranger fell and was killed'. Sad isn't it?

Glenys

[Wirral]

Hi Glenys
Finally managed to get to the library. From the Indefatigble Training Ship, Register No. 7, 14/9/1896 - 8/11/1900:
No. 405 Charles Williams; admitted 8 Nov 1900; age last birthday 14; born Walton; 3rd standard in education; 4ft 4.5ins; 70lbs; on terms of 3 years; attended Fazakerly Homes school; from West Derby Union; C of E; both parents dead (no information given on them).
5 Sep 1903 discharged to S/S Wayfarer; character on leaving - good; reads, writes & cyphers - 6th standard; 4ft 10.5ins; 92 lbs; recommended by George Chambers.
Forgot to say, I took a photo of the entry if you want it.

[busyglen]

Thanks very much for doing this Wirral. Just caught this before the taxi comes to take us to the station. Off to a Wedding.

That is very interesting but I think this is the wrong Charles Williams. I will digest when I get back on Sunday.

Thanks for your time, its appreciated. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Hi Wirral,

Sorry, didn't have the time to reply properly last Friday and only got back yesterday.

Again, thank you for your time in looking this up. I am now quite confused.....
:confused: I `think' that I must have found the wrong Charles Williams (and with a name like Williams, it's not hard!). The age is right for Charles, and the fact that he was in the West Derby Workhouse. (Unless of course, I found the wrong Margaret and Charles).

Two other things don't gel either. It states that both parents dead, but he never knew his father as he was illegitimate and no name shown on his birth certificate. His mother was definately alive as she died in her 90's. The other thing that looks odd as well, is that he was discharged to the SS Wayfarer? As he joined the Army that doesn't seem right either??

So....is it the right Charles and he's given wrong information, or the fact that I have picked up the wrong one??? Sigh!!

Having read the information over again his height indicates that he was a short young man, and `our' Charles was from memory only about 5ft. 2" when he was elderly, but then, that's nothing to go by is it?

Any ideas?

Glenys