View Full Version : Verifying Relocation
24-10-2006, 1:12 PM
Hi, Im after some help.
Tracing my grandfathers tree. He was born in 1915 and his mothers maiden name was Annie Miller. She was married July 6th 1913 at St. Annes, Lambeth aged 27 and was living at 41 The Grove South Lambeth. Her fathers name is given as William, a carman.
Now I cant find an Annie, daughter of William anywhere in the locality in 1901 or 1891 census and the list of Annie Millers born 1885-1886 is huge.
I search BMD for all birth and made a list of the locations, then searched 1901 census for Annie daughter of William anywhere in England living anywhere near any of the possible birthplaces. I hit upon a birth registered in Altrincham Q4 1885 and a corresponding 1901 census entry in Lymm - Annie daughter of William and Bertha.
How might I go about verifying whether this is in fact the right Annie? I dont know how to bridge the gap betwen 1901 and 1913....
24-10-2006, 3:00 PM
Good thought but no. And I cant search because I dont know exactly who Annie is...
Alfred Miller was a witness at the wedding - I havent found an Annie daughter of William with brother Alfred at all. Maybe he was a cousin/uncle?
24-10-2006, 3:46 PM
Found this on the 1901 census
civil parish Kensington, reg dist Kensington, sub reg dist Brompton
Anne E Miller age 9 (born Bermondsey)
Frances W Miller age 8
Mary E Miller age 29
William Miller age 33 (born Wandsworth)
William G Miller age 1
Not to sure about William's occ looks like cont carman but has a big cross through it.
The only thing is that Anne's dob dosnt match.
Ann(ie) Ann(e) Ann E Anne E
The only thing is that Anne's dob dosnt matchAnne age 9 in 1901 would be about 22 in 1913.
Is her age on the marriage certificate clearly "27", or is it possible that the "7" could be a "2"?
I was assuming that you have a copy of the marriage certificate Bev. Have you checked the age in the parish register, if it's available?
24-10-2006, 5:50 PM
Yes I do have the marriage certificate. The 7 is not entirely clear, a 2 is feasible (as is a 1).
I dont know how to go about checking the parish registers. Do I have to go down there?
24-10-2006, 6:08 PM
The register is at the London Metropolitan Archives - microfilmed, so not a case of ordering it and hanging around waiting for it to be brought out, just a case of grabbing the right box from the drawer. As you already have the exact date from the cert, so there's no trawling involved, this is a five minute job, if that. I don't know which day this week I'm going there (disrupted sleep has played havoc with plans, I should have been there today) but I will take a look. I'm not convinced that confirming the age will actually help a lot in establishing who Annie is, but there's no harm in trying, and at least you'll be starting off on the right foot then, so for the trivial amount of time involved, it's certainly worth checking.
24-10-2006, 10:05 PM
Thankyou very much; that would be very kind of you
27-10-2006, 8:09 PM
Annie is definitely 27 in the original entry. Unlike his colleague who did the next marriage, John Burgoine Hunt knew the difference between ink and water, so it's nice and clear, but ...
"Her fathers name is given as William, a carman."
If that's what your copy says, then whoever wrote it out needs to lay off the wacky-baccy. :D
It's the groom's father who is a Carman!
William Miller, Annie's father, is an Engineer's Labourer. I took a copy and have done a quick scan of it - thumbnail image below, click to enlarge:
12-11-2006, 11:45 AM
You are quite right, I mis quoted my certificate. Sorry.
The age of 27 at marriage does correspond exactly with her death in 1968 aged 82 so I think the d.o.b is OK.
Where do you think this leaves me in relation to my hypothesis that she is a Northerner (the family who knew her are sure she was a Londoner).
12-11-2006, 5:15 PM
the family who knew her are sure she was a Londoner
This will be split up to avoid the repeating text bug - don't be put off by the first bit.
Family lore is notoriously unreliable - but so are census returns, ages given on death certificates which might have come from the marriage certificate of the deceased that the informant found in the drawer, precise names used at different times of people's lives, and many other things.
When all you have is a name, a common name at that, and father's equally common name, on a 1913 marriage certificate, it is very difficult to be sure of anything. I am glad that my tree works the other way around, from past to present, and "history" usually finishes about 1900 for me!
(more to come)
12-11-2006, 5:25 PM
To go into this properly would take more time and money than I possess, but after a quick prod, I'll go along with the family on this one. We do have that clue of Alfred Miller as a witness. There are absolutely no hard and fast rules with witnesses, but eldest brother is common for the bride.
So, let's start at the beginning - not the 1901, they've had time to get themselves muddled by then. If the age on the marriage record is correct, she's born mid 1885 to mid 1886. Let's look at the 1891 and see what we find.
I don't have proper access to the census returns here, so I can only give you these from the freebie transcript to get you going, but I would draw your attention to:
12-11-2006, 5:29 PM
1891 in St Saviour, Southwark:
William J Miller 35 born Lambeth
Emma Miller 32 born Lambeth
Emma J Miller 10 born Lambeth
Sarah E Miller 8 born Lambeth
Alfred Miller 7 born Lambeth
Ann Miller 5 born Southwark
John E Miller 2 born Southwark
OK, she's "Ann", not "Annie". To put it bluntly, so what? !!!
Father is William, big brother is Alfred, and her age fits - I think she's the Ann Miller with a St Saviour ref in 1886 March Q, not the Annie Sarah Miller in 1885 March Q, because there ia a girl of exactly that name elsewhere who fits.
12-11-2006, 5:35 PM
So, why didn't she show up on the 1901?
If you are not already aware of the first rule of family history, it is:
Always assume that what you are looking at on the census is a pack of lies scribbled down by someone who could hardly write, let alone spell, could not add up, and could not remember where his or her kids were born, copied into the book by a geographically challenged enumerator on his return from a beer drinking contest at the Rose & Crown.
With that in mind, let us look again at the 1901, concentrating on the family rather than specifically looking for your girl.
12-11-2006, 5:48 PM
1901 in St George the Martyr, Southwark
Same birthplace pattern, Lambeth for the first few then Southwark - just that on one or other Silly Billy has Alf's wrong.
Wm Miller 45 b. Lambeth (that's OK, presumably widowed now)
Jane Miller 19 b. Lambeth
(that'll be Emma "J" on the 1891, now a year younger)
Sarah Miller 19 b. Lambeth
(that'll be Sarah E on the 1891, now a year older)
Alfred Miller 15 b. Southwark (two years adrift)
Annie Miller 13 b. Southwark (also two years adrift, and no longer "Ann")
John Miller 11 b. Southwark (John E on the 1891, a year adrift)
12-11-2006, 5:56 PM
Well blow me down guvnor you've only gawn and got em..
(Did you like that, official cockerney)
Thanks so much, I dont know why I couldnt see this when I looked. I couldnt get Annie at all on 1901 but this is all excellent stuff.
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