Ruled Britannia

[Haggis]

My cousins have just finished a return visit to UK, having emigrated to Oz over twenty years ago. They hadn't been back for a long long time and as this could be their last ever, due to galloping anno domini, they made the most of it by making it quite a lengthy stay.

During their last week we gave them dinner and after a late night well lubricated by cab sauv they sadly admitted that they had been shocked by the changes in the old country, citing
- loss of national pride
- subservience to Brussels/Washington
- immigration virtually uncontrolled
- rampant crime
- general cynicism, selfishness and lack of consideration
etc etc etc

[Discuss]

[Arkwright]

I think it's easy to leave this country and then return for a brief period and critisise it....

If more brits stood up for what they believed in and didn't jump ship when the going get's tough then maybe, just maybe things would be different....

I don't particularly like the state of our country at the moment, but I'm proud of the fact that I still live here and have the opportunity to affect change by voicing my opinions and casting my vote.....

All the things your cousins were critical of, certainly won't get changed by people living on the other side of the world.

There's my 'two pence worth'

[harfin]

Oooh Arkwright, my move to the antipodes was not to "jump ship" as you put it. We left to go to countries that promised that rewarding work and education opportunities were not limited to those from "the right side of the tracks". After 35 years I did eventually return, for a plethora of reasons, not the least being the strongest "pull" in the world - roots.

Many in NZ and Oz feel very strongly about Britains virtual "abandonment" of it's trade and economic links with it's Commonwealth, in favour of a group that included countries that had directly caused the loss of so many British lives (in our lifetimes) - not to mention the many many thousands of young people from the Commonwealth too.

Regret? Yes - perhaps had I and many others stayed in Britain when crucial decisions were being made, we may have been able to change this europeanisation of Mother England.

Alan

[curmudgeon]

They say there's no Roman Catholic as devout as a recent convert. So perhaps an immigrant to Australia is more likely to be critical of the old country?
But IMHO (sorry Arkright) the argument for staying and effecting change is specious. 'Democracy' doesn't quite allow one person to do that.

[Ed Bradford]

In a democracy, the power of a single individual is not absolute as it is in other forms of government such as dictatorships. However, a single individual can still make a difference. Tony Blair and Margaret Thatcher are such individuals. They have risen to level where what they say or do makes a difference. History will tell us if they had the impact of William Shakespeare or Winston Churchill. If you don’t like the way things are then get active in the governing body that controls what you don't like and put yourself in a position to legally make a change.
...............Ed

[Davran]

Well said, Ed. It's easy to moan and groan about what we don't like, but a lot harder to actually get up off one's backside and do something about it!

Immigration into Britain has become a difficult issue and needs to be sorted, but I think we would do ourselves a disservice by not broadening our attitudes to accommodate other cultures. After all, we have taken in strangers, willingly or unwillingly, since before the Norman conquest. It is then a different issue as to what these immigrants do when they arrive. I myself lived in Greece for a year and made every effort to abide by their culture and customs and I feel immigrants into ANY country should do the same, whilst still enriching the host country with other ideas and customs - what would we do without our Chinese and Indian takeaways?! We can all learn from each other.:)

[BeeE586]

Interesting thread.

I regard it as a sacred duty to vote; women in the past have died or suffered dreadful indignities to gain me that right and I feel it would be disloyal and lacking respect to their memory not to do so.

There is a passage in scripture something like - 'All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing'. Perhaps if all the good men (and women) were to unite and make their feelings known, things might improve. When people moan about the Government (of any colour) and I say ... Did you vote ? ...... frequently the answer is ...... What does it matter, they are all the same, or Oh I was too busy, or some equally fatuous excuse.

The turnout for some local elections is less than 20% - a shocking state of affairs. There is no easy answer to the problems in this country at the moment, and those of my generation can no longer take any active part, but we can and should express an opinion at the polls.

Eileen

[G.V.Ford]

Too right that we should vote to express our opinions but I am depressed that too much of our legislation, good and bad, comes from outside the country and is merely rubber-stamped (because they have no other option) by those we elect to "govern" us.

[harfin]

Too right that we should vote to express our opinions but I am depressed that too much of our legislation, good and bad, comes from outside the country and is merely rubber-stamped (because they have no other option) by those we elect to "govern" us.

As one who has seen much of other countries over the years, the aspect that always niggles me is how many countries (including a number in the EU) enact legislation and do not enforce the law.

In my opinion, Britain at least does attempt to enforce the legislation that it enacts.

Alan

[Pam Downes]

As one who has seen much of other countries over the years, the aspect that always niggles me is how many countries (including a number in the EU) enact legislation and do not enforce the law.
In my opinion, Britain at least does attempt to enforce the legislation that it enacts. AlanYou mean it bends over backwards to enforce EU laws which other EU countries blithely ignore.
Pam

[BeeE586]

Perhaps if more people had bothered to vote, and had voted AGAINST in the original referendum that took is into Europe we would be better off.. Hindsight I know, and maybe we would have been worse off, but at least we would have been making our own decisions and so - perhaps - our own mistakes. It may be my old and tired brain, but I cannot comprehend how any single piece of legislation can be drafted to cover every country in the EU when Ethnic groups, customs, tradition, even climate are so varied. It would seem that some countries pick out the bits that suit them e.g.immigration to Britain, and ignore the rest.

Eileen

[Ed Bradford]

Voting in every election is a good first step to getting the government you want. In my opinion, if you don't vote then you've given up the right to complain about what your elected officials do.

The next step is not only voting but also supporting a candidate. There are many different levels of candidate support and they don’t have to be financial based. Although, helping out financially, I’m sure, would be appreciated. By helping a candidate, that candidate and others as well tend to listen to what you have to say and thus you can exert a degree of influence.

The ultimate step would be to become a candidate yourself. That’s a big commitment but a rewarding one. Once elected, you then have the opportunity to make a difference.

………….Ed

[Haggis]

If more brits stood up for what they believed in and didn't jump ship when the going get's tough then maybe, just maybe things would be different....


How can you presume to know the reasons why my cousins went Ozwards?

[June]

How can you presume to know the reasons why my cousins went Ozwards?

Or why my dad packed his gear and his family and moved there more than 50 years ago...(1951)

June

[BeeE586]

My memory may be at fault here as it is all a very long time ago. but I seem to remember that in the years just after the war families were being actively encouraged to emigrate to Australia. I think one of the reasons was to rebuild a skilled workforce in that country as not all who applied were eligible to go, and another was the appalling lack of housing in GB following the destruction of so much property by bombing. There could well have been other reasons, but I do recall that a number of my late husband's ex-service pals who had steelworks/engineering skills took advantage of the offer.

I think there was an assisted passage scheme whereby a man paid the first ten pounds (?) of the fare and the rest was subsidized by either the British or Australian Governmen - not sure which, maybe jointly.

Perhaps the families of some of those people who contribute to this Forum were concerned in the scheme and can add more. So far as I remember there was never any suggestion that anyone was 'deserting', rather that it was a good and sensible thing to do, and helping both countries.

Eilleen

[harfin]

I think there was an assisted passage scheme whereby a man paid the first ten pounds (?) of the fare and the rest was subsidized by either the British or Australian Governmen - not sure which, maybe jointly. Perhaps the families of some of those people who contribute to this Forum were concerned in the scheme and can add more. So far as I remember there was never any suggestion that anyone was 'deserting', rather that it was a good and sensible thing to do, and helping both countries.Eilleen

The £10 assisted passage scheme was still going in the 60's. It was necessary to "surrender" your passport to the Australian Government, and you signed an agreement that if you left Oz within a certain number of years you had to pay the Oz Government back the full cost of the fare. Acceptance for assisted migration was based on many things, your work expertience, qualifications, existing family / friends there for support etc. There were also schemes for 16 year olds, "Big Brother" (really!!) it was called!
I had 10 very happy years in Oz - it was a great experience for an 18 year old; and yes you got your passport back after the retention period :-)

Alan

[June]

Migrants were required to stay in Australia for two years or repay the fare and I belive the cutoff age was 45 years of age.

Applicants had to be willing to work and have some kind of skill, although unskilled workers were accepted if they were willing to go onto certain projects.
If a sponsor guaranteed accommodation it was easier to be accepted, otherwise there was a waiting list until appropriate Government Housing was available.
Jobs were plentiful. We arrived on Friday, bought a paper on Saturday morning and the four of us found employment on the Monday. My own experience was a real surprise. I applied for a job but a good standard of shorthand was required which I did not have, however, when I got up to leave I was given a cup of tea and asked to wait until the interviewer could drive me around to some of their other interests. He assured me that a suitable job would be available.

At first we longed for the two years to be up so that we could return 'home' but when the time came, we realised that we were very happy where we were. My parents had been able to buy their own home and we all had wellpaid jobs.

June

[John]

Although the government can influence the state of the country to a greater or lesser extent, we can make a difference too, for example, tolerance is not directly controlled by government.

Our newspapers probably play a greater part in influencing our day to day life, for example it doesn't matter how many times the government says crime is falling, the papers say it isn't, they instill a fear of crime that doesn't really exist, this country is no more dangerous or crime ridden than it was twenty or thirty years ago, but people perceive it to be.

Actually, I find it quiet amusing, the comments that immigrants into Australia had to surrender their passports to make sure that they didn't leave, a long way from current policy:)

We hear about all these rules laid down in Brussels that govern our life, but what exactly are these oppressive laws they impose on us? I certainly can't think of any at the moment.

Things like cynicism and lack of respect are entirely down to us, as is national pride, I have respect and though I feel no need to go flag waving and I'm not sure that I would use the word 'proud' but I love my country, sometimes it's a little like loving the rebel child, you hope it's a phase they are going through and you hope it doesn't take too long but you don't stop loving them.

%crime ridden than it was twenty or thirty years ago, but people perceive it to be.</P>
Actually, I find it quiet amusing, the comments that immigrants into Australia had to surrender their passports to make sure that they didn't leave, a long way from current policy:)

We hear about all these rules laid down in Brussels that govern our life, but what exactly are these oppressive laws they impose on us? I certainly can't think of any at the moment.

Things like cynicism and lack of respect are entirely down to us, as is national pride, I have respect and though I feel no need to go flag waving and I'm not sure that I would use the word 'proud' but I love my country, sometimes it's a little like loving the rebel child, you hope it's a phase they are going through and you hope it doesn't take too long but you don't stop loving them.

[G.V.Ford]

"We hear about all these rules laid down in Brussels that govern our life, but what exactly are these oppressive laws they impose on us? I certainly can't think of any at the moment." (How do you get quotes in boxes?).

One that jumps immediately to mind because it is currently concerning me is disposal of waste. You know - farmers unable to put used bricks on their field tracks (brand new ones purchased for the purpose are OK), used cardboard boxes unable to be used as fuel (brand new ones purchased for the purpose are OK), televisions being sent to China for land filling, There is a small charity (Intercare) based in Leicester that for decades has been collecting surplus medicines and sending them to medical centres in Africa. These medicines are all in-date, inspected and clinically approved by volunteer doctors before shipment. This charity has now been banned from shipping such surplus medicine because, being surplus, it must, by EU regulation, be deemed waste. The director of this charity has been warned she faces criminal charges because of the charity's past work. Whereas they previously only had to pay freight charges they are now having to raise money to purchase these medicines directly from the manufacturers so as to keep the medical centres in operation. Now it may be overly enthusiastic enforcement by officials in this country but it isn't overly enthusiastic interpretation of the EU regulation.

Geoff

[waspexile]

Its a bit illogical to leave somewhere, a house, a town, a country or whatever, and then to come back later and expect it to be the same or magically better.

I am uneasy with people leaving, coming back, and then pontificating about "the old days".
For instance I was school age in the 70s - are some people seriuosly suggesting things were "better" in the 70s? That'll be my trip down to the electricity shop to see when the powers cut off and then off to Woolies to buy candles. Are you mad?

There are some serious structural changes taking place to the population in Europe, and we are in the forefront of it (because we are the most popular venue!)
Its OUR fault if we cant control the input of people into the country, and our fault if we waste enormous sums of money on people who are only here for an easy life.
The flip side of this is that lots of people coming in are hard-working want to get on and just get on with it, unlike some people born here who are none of the above. I know, because I employ some of them.

As someone has already said, if you dont like it, get off your backside and do something about it.

Of course running away is another option, and people have to do whats right for them, but eventually you run out of places to run to.

We cant run away from Europe, so it must surely be better to get in position to ensure we make the right decisions, spend less on it and avoid ridiculous situations such as those mentioned by Geoff.

David

[John]

"
One that jumps immediately to mind because it is currently concerning me is disposal of waste. Geoff
I must confess Geoff that I have never felt the need to lay a farm track of either new or used bricks and I suspect that not many none farmers have either. Nor am I overcome with a desire to burn cardboard boxes new or used.

While it is a shame that it is no longer allowed to send surplus medicine to third world countries it is an even greater shame that with the vast fortunes the drug companies make that these drugs can not be provided by the manufacturers at an affordable cost to the recipient country.
But again, sad though this may be, it does not impact on quality of life in the UK and they can not fairly be described as oppressive to the inhabitants of this country.

[G.V.Ford]

What I gave, citing the situation facing Intercare, was an example of an oppressive directive.

There are both good and bad directives coming from Brussels I am sure but, returning to a previous theme, our government at Westminster has no option but to nod them through without discussion. Indeed MPs likely do not even know what they contain. They are Directives.

Our Parliament currently still has extensive powers over foreign policy, our economy and taxation. These powers will, in course of time, be absorbed into an overall European legislature and our MEPs will become our legislating representatives. This may be good or bad, but personally I believe the EU is a lumbering dinosaur stuck in the dreams of an immediately post-war Europe*. I also believe, like soviet communism, it will ultimately fall apart and we will be wallowing - not that I will still be around to see it.

* "dreams of an immediately post-war Europe" One of the problems is that most other EU countries have proportional representation wherein prospective representatives only make progress up the party lists if they conform to the ideas of the leaders of those parties, and by now this already goes back several generations.

Geoff

[John]

What I gave, citing the situation facing Intercare, was an example of an oppressive directive.

Geoff
But Geoff, none of those directives oppress me or the majority of the population of this country, and are you really telling me that the British government would be more resistant to pressure from the big drug companies?

[John]

I took a minute to have a look at Intercare, it seems that the problem isn't with the EEC at all but with our Environment Agency misinterpreting a Brussels Directive and regarding surplus drugs as clinical waste and insisting that they should be disposed of as such.

[G.V.Ford]

John, you may consider that the problem lies with a misinterpretation of a Brussels directive but the Environment Agency obviously do not. I am not legally trained so have no opinion on that. All I can say is that there was no problem before Brussels gave the directive and I really cannot say whether the directive is due to pressure from any big drug company. I doubt it somehow considering the size of the operation.

I am pleased however that neither you nor I are personally oppressed, since we do not rely on surplus medicines. I am certainly depressed.

Geoff

[John]

Geoff, the Environment Agency are obviously not going to stand up and say that they are doing that because they are misinterpretating a Brussels directive, that doesn't mean that they aren't though.

After my last message I spent more time looking into this because however callous I might appear, it is the sort of thing that stirs me. In all my questing I found many mentions of the actions of the EA but no mention that theirs was a proper implementation of EU rules.

I have still to be given an example of a direct act of the EU oppressing me or generally lowering my quality of life.
I get depressed too, I have never found a way of passing the blame on to the EU.

[G.V.Ford]

It matters not whether the Environment Agency are improperly implementing EU rules. The fact is that their interpretation is causing oppression (albeit not to you, nor lowering your quality of life) and it is a result of an EU ruling that was not requested by our government (in Westminster) and which our government had no opportunity to discuss and has no power not to enforce other than by omission (which in this country we tend not to do).

I think I have had my say on this subject.

Geoff

[John]

It matters not whether the Environment Agency are improperly implementing EU rules. The fact is that their interpretation is causing oppression (albeit not to you, nor lowering your quality of life) and it is a result of an EU ruling that was not requested by our government (in Westminster) and which our government had no opportunity to discuss and has no power not to enforce other than by omission (which in this country we tend not to do).

I think I have had my say on this subject.

Geoff
Oh Geoff. the EU don't say something but it is still their fault that a British government body does something that the EU hasn't said that they should do.
It is not being done because the EU say that it should be so, it is being done because the EA says it should be that way.
Please put the blame where it belongs.