Will Records Query

[busyglen]

I decided to have another bash at going through the wills on TNA and of course with a name like JONES, there are hundreds. I had tried various shortcuts first, but am now down to the nitty gritty of wading through the lot. One thing has confused me slightly and I should be grateful for some expert advice please.

When you are viewing the list of Wills, there is a date at the bottom left of each record. Is this the date of death, date of probate or date will made?

I started off by looking for year of death, but then started to wonder, and began to look at all records from 1800s. There are so many to go through (and I probably wont find anything) that if I can shortcut it a bit it would help.

Many thanks.

Glenys

[Mythology]

It's the date of probate.

But, just to confuse you, the location given is where they were living when the will was made, which, of course, is not necessarily where they died.

For example, one of mine ...
Will of Robert Bigsby, Farmer of Earl Soham , Suffolk 03 March 1852
PROB 11/2148

He was living in Earl Soham when the will was made in 1838, but died at Hawstead in May 1851.

[busyglen]

Thanks Myth that's just what I needed to know!

I know where Edward came from, where he lived and his address where he died, so `should' be able to work it out if I find one....which I doubt, but it's worth a shot. Nothing else to go on at the moment. :(

Glenys

[Mythology]

Ummm ... hang on, Glenys.

If it is Edward who you are looking for, rather than doing a Jones trawl in the hope that somebody earlier might, from the occupation and location, be a suspect for his father, my memory of when he died is a bit hazy, but if I remember rightly it was in the 1860s - he's alive on the 1861 census, isn't he?

If so, you are wasting your time with those PCC wills on TNA's site - they only go up to 1858.

You need either access to the National Probate Calendar, or send a fiver to York for a search.

[Pam Downes]

If it is Edward who you are looking for, rather than doing a Jones trawl in the hope that somebody earlier might, from the occupation and location, be a suspect for his father, my memory of when he died is a bit hazy, but if I remember rightly it was in the 1860s - he's alive on the 1861 census, isn't he? I just love the way Myth keeps track of all our rellies. I have enough trouble remembering some of mine without throwing other people's families into the mix. Though perhaps after chasing his lot around the world he quite likes dealing with a normal family. :D
Pam

[busyglen]

Oh bother!!!!!! |banghead|

You are quite right Myth.....what a wonderful memory you have! Of course, I had forgotten that they only went up to 1858. He died in 1864.

I'm really clutching at straws...(as with most of my lot) and in the absence so far, of finding him in Aprenticeship records, which may have been in Wales anyway...I thought I'd look to see if he had left a Will as being a Master Scale Maker and in the Directories, it was possible that he had a bit of money to leave his children, and might have given me some more info.

I've just received some fiche from Bucks. FH today to see if I can find anything in the Removals etc. for John Jarvis, I've also a few records of Bucks. Strays for the Metropolitan Police, so keep your fingers crossed that I might find something there. I'm not getting excited though! :(

Thanks again for putting me straight...saves me a lot of looking for nothing.

Glenys

[busyglen]

I just love the way Myth keeps track of all our rellies. I have enough trouble remembering some of mine without throwing other people's families into the mix. Though perhaps after chasing his lot around the world he quite likes dealing with a normal family. :D
Pam


I agree Pam...I certainly couldn't do it, I have to check everything twice, and still manage to get it wrong....shame really as I used to have a marvellous memory!! Now...I can remember what I was doing in 1957, but not yesterday!!

Glenys

[arthurk]

Hi Glenys

Have you tried the Indexes to the Death Duty Registers (IR27)? These are available at 1837 Online. In the absence of an online probate index post 1858 these can be a good alternative way in, though for some years the index doesn't cover intestates (admons).

Arthur

[busyglen]

Hi Glenys

Have you tried the Indexes to the Death Duty Registers (IR27)? These are available at 1837 Online. In the absence of an online probate index post 1858 these can be a good alternative way in, though for some years the index doesn't cover intestates (admons).

Arthur

Thanks Arthur, no I hadn't, that sounds a good idea to try. :)

Glenys

[Mythology]

Glenys, don't spend any money.

I'm having a "here, there and everywhere" day, been to the Probate Office, the Guildhall Library, where I find that the reason I can't find a marriage in St George Hanover Square is that, yet again, the online version of Boyd's is duff - the real thing says St George Queen Square.
I want to go to Westminster for other things but have diverted to the LMA to look that up - and you'll have gone to bed by the time I've got home and recovered from all this chasing around. :D

Anyway - there is no will, but there is an admon entry "under £300", granted to daughter Maria, Spinster. I will type it out properly tomorrow, but one thing worth knowing ... Eliza had the best of reasons for not signing his death cert, she was already dead - he's a widower in this entry, so that narrows things down to three years for you where she's concerned. :)

[busyglen]

Wow Myth!! What can I say??

That's a brilliant piece of news, and completely solves all that conjecture of why Eliza didn't register the death, or was at home with him when he died. For some reason, I didn't expect her to `fall over' before him...don't ask me why!

I'm now off to look for her death.....this has given me a bit of a lift, :) as I have been feeling so depressed at not getting any further with the Jarvis saga.

Thank you so much for all your trouble, I didn't expect you to do this for me, and am really grateful. |hug|

I'm not sure if I shall be able to get on here until late tomorrow as I'm going to the hospital with my husband as he's having an operation soon, but will do so when I can.

Hope you haven't worn yourself out too much and that you have a good nights rest.

Glenys

[busyglen]

Just quickly before I have to switch off.....I have done a quick search of the BMD's and can only find one Eliza Jones in Chelsea between 1861 and 1864 and that is the June Qtr. 1864. So it looks as if she died not long before Edward.

There were two other Elizas in St. Luke, but I don't think that would be right would it? Edward was registered in Chelsea....although they did live in the parish of St. Luke.

Anyway, will get back to this tomorrow.

Glenys

[Mythology]

"I didn't expect you to do this for me"
I wasn't planning on it, but I struck gold first time with the two of mine that I guessed there'd be at least an admon for and wanted to check - my "Sarah Ann" in Lincolnshire 1901 is indeed the "Annie" death in Camberwell in 1902 in the GRO index, and my "Kate" in Chiswick 1901 is indeed the "Deborah" death in Halstead, Essex, in 1908 in the GRO index.

I can usually spot my ones in the GRO index by working on the principle that they don't have a clue what their names are, and if there's nothing in the same registration district you can rule out anything within about fifty miles, 'cos when they moved they didn't mess about! :D

Having spent less time than anticipated on them, as you'd mentioned the specific year, 1864, only a few days ago, so I hadn't had time to forget it, I thought I'd take a quick look.

[Mythology]

And, in the Administrations section for 1864, there he was. :)

JONES Edward

Effects under £300.

17 September. Letters of Administration of the Personal estate and effects of Edward Jones late of 7 Queen's-road-East in the Parish of St. Luke in the County of Middlesex Scale and Weight Manufacturer a Widower deceased who died 20 August 1864 at 7 Queen's-road-East aforesaid were granted at the Principal Registry to Maria Jones of 7 Queen's-road-East aforesaid Spinster the Daughter of the said Deceased she having been first sworn.

So - as well as Eliza falling over, that makes it pretty obvious that the Maria who signed the death cert was indeed the daughter, still single and at home.

[Mythology]

Re the deaths you found ...

Yes, it'll be the Chelsea one.
"St Luke" as a registration district isn't St Luke, Chelsea - the name comes from St Luke, Old Street, sometimes called St Luke, Finsbury, miles away from your patch. As a rough indicator based on somewhere you'll probably know, if you think "north of the Barbican" you won't go far wrong.

[busyglen]

Myth, once again, thank you, thank you so much!

I know it doesn't sound a lot, but this information really gave me a lift. At last I can put Eliza to bed as well, and with a name like Eliza JONES, thats quite difficult to achieve! It's also stopped me from wasting a lot more time and I can try another tack.

Glad you at least managed to sort a few things out yourself. ;)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Myth, have just received Eliza JONES death certificate. Poor Maria, she really had a hard time of it!! It looks as if her mother Eliza was an alcoholic, judging by the cause of death. It states " shattered constitution from intemperance 10 years, and Dropsy 1 month". Isn't it a shame that Eliza who had such beautiful writing ended up that way? Poor Maria not only had to look after her mother, she also buried her father a few months later. Hope the £300 came in handy!

Will now try and see what happened to Maria.

Glenys

[Mythology]

Oh gosh - that's a bit rough, isn't it? :(

And a bit unexpected for a married woman whose husband is obviously a step up the ladder from the average London slave - it's not as if they're dirt poor deadlegs, is it?

I wonder what the "under £300" that Maria ended up with actually amounted to - but I doubt if we'll find out. I can't remember the details for different periods (sorry, I'm lazy - I don't bother remembering with things that I can get at easily, I just look 'em up and they're either there or they're not) but I'm pretty certain that for a low amount like that going to a descendant, there wouldn't be anything more specific in the death duty register, just an index entry that wouldn't tell us any more than we already know.
I'll have a quick look when I'm next at the FRC though, in case I'm wrong - it'll only take a few minutes.

[busyglen]

Thanks Myth, although as you say, I doubt you will find anything else.

It's so sad, and I wonder why she went that route? At least I can understand why gt.grandmother Elizabeth Jones, who married Alfred Strong Jarvis, decided to marry young and the parents weren't at the wedding. They married in March 1864, mum died in April 1864 and dad died in August 1864. Quite a year wouldn't you say?
At least this gives a clue as to why Alfred said his dad (John Jarvis) was deceased...as dad obviously didn't want him marrying into a family that had a drunk as a mother in law.

Slowly things are painting a picture, and to be honest, most of these two lines, seem to be beset by sadness. That's life I guess....or to be correct..`was life'.

Glenys

[charlie7]

I'm probably running before i can walk here. After reading above posts,i thought i would go and have a look at the death duties, put in the relevant surname and came up with these two. Is anyone able to give me the info it holds as i thought maybe i could work from those to see if they connected to my HANNEY family.

Andrew HANNY,HANNEY or HUNNEY Mariner now belonging to Her Majesty's Ship Bonaventure
27 August 1709 PROB 11/510

James HANNY, Stewards mate on board the King of Prussia Private Ship of War
23 December PROB 11/882

if i can't connect them yet i can always put them in my list of maybe's waiting for the year dates to be researched when i get to them

thanks

[Peter Goodey]

Andrew HANNY,HANNEY or HUNNEY Mariner now belonging to Her Majesty's Ship Bonaventure
27 August 1709 PROB 11/510

1. It would have been better to have started a new thread.

2. Death duty registers don't cover 1709! I think what you've actually found is the "Will of Andrew Hanny or Hanney or Hunney, Mariner now belonging to Her Majesty's Ship Bonaventure" on Documents Online at The National Archives site. To get a copy of the will you just hit the "Add to Shopping" button. Alternatively, go to the National Archives and see it free of charge.

3. I don't recommend working this way. It is best to work backwards step by step. If you then come across one of those people, so well and good. If not, well, they're just not related.