job descriptions

[mulross]

My grandfather was in the merchant navy and in his marriage certificate of 1897 he was a "marine engineer". He would have been 33 years old at that time. On later official documents he was described variously as seaman, fireman, ships stoker and greaser. The last is from the Commonwealth War Graves site as his ship was sunk in 1917.

What confuses me is that marine engineer sounds like he had some kind of training / qualification but the later ones sound like "unskilled" jobs, as if he has been "demoted"? Can anyone explain why he would have these different titles and how would he have earned the title of marine engineer? Also, is fireman another term for stoker and what is a greaser?

[Geoffers]

Is there a surviving seaman's pouch for him?

Try searching TNA's catalogue
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp
enter his name (if not too common, try just his surname) and in the department or series code, enter 'BT372'

For what the pouches are and contain, see TNA's research guides
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp#m

Geoffers

[mulross]

Thanks - I checked out the link but he's not there. There is nothing survives for him and he has been a nightmare to research. All I know about the ships on which he served was his final one the Ermine. It was built on the Clyde 1912 for the Glasgow-Dublin mail run and was requisitioned by the Admiralty in 1914. My grandfather was on it when it was sunk by a U boat but I don't know how long he had served on it.

[ChristineR]

Have you been able to find him in the 1901 census?

Christine

[Colin Moretti]

...What confuses me is that marine engineer sounds like he had some kind of training / qualification but the later ones sound like "unskilled" jobs, as if he has been "demoted"? Can anyone explain why he would have these different titles and how would he have earned the title of marine engineer? Also, is fireman another term for stoker and what is a greaser?You don't say what official documents you are referring to, apart from his marriage cert, but if they are birth, marriage or death certificates or census returns then they only contain what the registrar or enumerator was told by the informant and it's not unknown for people to exaggerate their status. My grandmother was honest, I assume, when grandad was described as a dustman on his death cert (can anyone suggest a lower status description for grandad?) - today it would probably be a recycling executive. :D

Colin

[mulross]

Christine - I haven't found him on the 1901 census as he was away at sea at the time (I located my grandmother and children). Can you advise as to how I trace someone at sea on the census? It's quite likely that he would have been on the Scotland-Ireland route.

Colin - it was birth certificates and baptismal records that I referred to and his record on the War Graves site. There is not a death certificate for him because he drowned at sea.

Thanks everyone

[Colin Moretti]

... I haven't found him on the 1901 census as he was away at sea at the time (I located my grandmother and children). Can you advise as to how I trace someone at sea on the census? It's quite likely that he would have been on the Scotland-Ireland route....I'm not absolutely sure but I think that UK-registered ships would have been included in the census returns at the first UK port after census night - at least for the census in England and Wales - the form would have been given to the master before census night and completed by him. So presumably grandfather would appear in the Scottish census or may be even the Irish one. But they may well have done things differently, I've no experience of Scottish or Irish records.

Colin

[Dennis Harker]

The term on the marriage certificate was, perhaps, glossing the job up a bit. Fireman, stoker and greaser were all terms for posts held by ratings in the engineering department. 'Marine Engineer' is not untrue because these ratings had skills that set them aside from deck and catering ratings. Some of the posts would require proof of ability and experience although I am not sure there were any actual certificates for those posts at that time.

A 'marine engineer officer' would normally hold the appropriate certification (known as ticket) although the National Archives and the Register of Shipping and Seamen websites do say that even these went to sea without certification in the early 20th Century.

Seaman is a generic term for all who went to sea although Able Seaman was an actual post and qualification held by a deck rating.

If I were a betting person I would put my money on him being an engineroom rating but with enough experience to be generically called a marine engineer.

[Dennis Harker]

Fireman is indeed another term for stoker and as the name suggests involved keeping the boilers going by feeding them with coal. In oil-fired steamships the term stoker disappeared but fireman was kept as someone was still required to keep the boilers going.

The term greaser emanates from the need to go round with the oilcan and grease gun/rag to keep the moving parts well lubricated. This would be happening whilst the stokers/firemen kept the boilers fed.

The Petty Officer in charge of engineroom ratings used to be called a Donkeyman and there were also Donkey Greasers but I'm not sure of the origin of the term donkey. Perhaps it was some form of engine.

[Dennis Harker]

You've probably got the following information but I thought I would throw it in just in case you haven't.

ERMINE(1912)ERMINE built by Fairfield Govan,
Yard No 486
Engines by shipbuilder Port of Registry: Glasgow
Propulsion: 2sets 4cyldr Triple expansion Twin Screw
Built: 1912
Ship Type: Passenger Cargo Vessel
Tonnage: 1836 grt
Length: 311 feet
Owner History:
G & J Burns Ltd Glasgow
Status: Sunk - 02/08/1917 mined

Remarks: in the Aegean off Stavros

[mulross]

If I were a betting person I would put my money on him being an engineroom rating but with enough experience to be generically called a marine engineer.

Thanks very much for explaining all that Dennis - very helpful. Also for the info on his ship - I do have some info on her plus a few photos of her launch.

[Mutley]

I asked an old Merchant Navy man about a greaser and he said I quote "Bloody necessary, without him I'd seize up and we would all be down under"??
Regarding the census, not applying to your rellie's ship but to a vessel on the River Thames, I asked the same fellow and he said, "Census? I've never filled one in and if the wife did then she didn't say and I didn't ask, that's her job" Is that why some of us have a missing relative?

[ChristineR]

Christine - I haven't found him on the 1901 census as he was away at sea at the time (I located my grandmother and children). Can you advise as to how I trace someone at sea on the census? It's quite likely that he would have been on the Scotland-Ireland route...The people on ships are included in the 1901 census and images online. I think it applies to ships that are in UK waters on census night. (My grandad was on a navy ship in Gibralter)

I believe the Scottish census is online as well, not sure about 1901 though.

Christine

[jeeb]

The Petty Officer in charge of engineroom ratings used to be called a Donkeyman and there were also Donkey Greasers but I'm not sure of the origin of the term donkey. Perhaps it was some form of engine.

A Donkey was a small engine used for auxillary jobs etc, usually on steamships.

Jeremy