Lloyds Register of Shipping

[harfin]

I've heard that Lloyds may hold more information than has been actually published in the Lloyd's Register volumes.

I have not sighted any register yet, but believe that they contain under each vessel's name, it's number, signal code, tonnage, dimensions, engine descrption, build date, place of build, builder's name, owner, name of master, number of crew, registry port, survey port, class, any casualties, and details of voyages.

I'd be grateful if someone with experince of the registers and Lloyds itself could confirm whether the Lloyds archives / records include:
a) the actual names and other details of specific individual members of the crew for specific voyages
b) the actual cargos carried
c) the actual geographical route
on a historical basis for specific vessels?

Thanks
Alan

[harfin]

Quote: [I'd be grateful if someone with experince of the registers and Lloyds itself could confirm whether the Lloyds archives / records include:
a) the actual names and other details of specific individual members of the crew for specific voyages ] Endquote

I take it that nobody knows the answer!

Cheers

Alan

[Dennis Harker]

No, it's just that I hadn't spotted your post before now!

Lloyds Register does include a whole heap of information about a particular ship, if it is registered with them. I don't think they include numbers of crew but may have the 'safe-manning' levels listed. This is the minimum number of crew that the ship can sail with and also dictates the key personnel that must be onboard. The Maritime & Coastguard Agency also deal with such matters. As far as I am aware they certainly wouldn't hold names of a ship's crew. That would be the Register of British Seamen which is based in Cardiff. The records of an individual seafarer should be registered here which will show a chronological record of the vessels they have been 'signed on'.

Lloyds is a classification body and I think the best way of describing what they can do for ships is to direct you to this website (Lloyds Register).


www.
lr.org/Industries/Marine/"]http://www.lr.org/Industries/Marine/

Three or four years ago I had reason to look at certain ship voyages that took place in the Far East in the early 60s (British shipping company). As most of the company's logbooks had been sent to the Newfoundland University that now holds many UK Merchant Navy records and that we would have had to pay for them to search for the information I discovered that the Guildhall Library in London holds very comprehensive records of such matters. These are basically copies of all sort of Lloyds Journals which, in turn, hold differing information on the required ships. Some records are on microfiche and some are still the original ledgers.

I did have to book but the facilities were provided free of charge.

It all depends what you are looking for but either the website or the Guildhall Library might be a good starting point (or both).

[Dennis Harker]

This website might also be helpful to you.


www.
crewlist.org.uk/findingonindexes.html

[harfin]

Thankyou Dennis thats extremely useful.

I have been trying to obtain some details regarding my father's merchant navy history.

Family lore has it that he ran away to sea when he was 14 or so (that would have been 1909 app) and served on vessels that included South America. I recall my Dad (James Henry Hart 1895 - 1963) talking of the ships carrying guano (lubbly jubbly!!). Again apparently he jumped ship in SA for a while, and worked ashore somewhere - I recall him mentioning Argentina I think).

Any way he was back in the UK in time for WW1 - but thats another story!

I'll try digging a bit more!

My thanks once again,
Alan

[Dennis Harker]

I'm glad that's got things moving for you. Here are a couple more useful links this time based on the Register of Shipping and Seamen at Cardiff :-

www.
mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/information_leaflet_msf_5323.doc

That document covers the period you are looking at.

www.
mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/msf5330.pdf

That document appears to be for WWII only but the guide will give you the sort of information you can find in the logbooks etc. which relates to your original post in this thread.

www.
mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-seafarer_information/mcga-rss-home/dops_-_west-newpage-5.htm

And that is their home page in case you need to search different areas of their website. You may get some useful contact numbers or email addresses from that site. I had official dealings with the MCA over my years at sea and I found the end result depended very much on the personality of the individual you dealt with. Some were extremely realistic and helpful whilst others were officious and a pain in the a***!

Hope that helps.

[Dennis Harker]

Hmmmmm! Server problem I think. First press of the submit button told me the server was busy and to try again. Second press of the submit button worked but then I see the message twice??

[Dennis Harker]

On a related note.

The carriage of Guano from South America by ships was big volume trade in the fertilizer market and I believe it helped Bristol become a busy seaport (although I am aware that the slave trade also had a hand in this).

It's a bit of a run down the M5 for you but I know that the National Trust has recently opened up Tyntesfield just below Bristol in Somerset. I think I am correct in saying that this house was 'built' by a shipowner who made his fortune in the Guano trade - unfortunately the NT website doesn't confirm this but I am sure I have read or viewed that information somewhere in the NT records.

www.
nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w-findaplace/w-tyntesfield/

I know it doesn't help with your research but thought I would just throw that one in.

I see guano is making a comeback for organic gardeners and you can even buy it via Ebay now!

[harfin]

I'm glad that's got things moving for you. Here are a couple more useful links this time based on the Register of Shipping and Seamen at Cardiff :-
www.
mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/information_leaflet_msf_5323.doc


Dennis, my thanks again!

Just read both of the leaflets re Cardiff. If I read them correctly, my Dad may be (just) in the Fourth Register of Merchant Seamna's section 1913 to 1940 - but these at Kew on Microfiche are in numerical (Seaman's Number) order. As I don't know his number, presumably one has to go through the lot? Alternative is to take a longer trip to Southampton!

I don't know what ship(s) he was on either, so the log books will not be much help - until I find his number.

I see one possible glimmer of hope though, and that is the Marine Apprentices records at Kew (hopefully in alphabetical order!) - if my Dad was taken on as one. He may have told a fib or two about his age of course and signed on as an adult. All we know for sure is that Dad was back in the UK at the start of WW1 as he was (in so far as family lore says anyway) at Gallipoli.

It looks like a trip to Kew has to be planned!

My sincere thanks again

Alan

PS One would need to be a wee bit (no pun intended!) careful of guano at present in the light of Asian Bird Flu :-)
aah

[Dennis Harker]

Do you have any of your father's papers at all? If so you would be looking for a Discharge Book. All Merchant seafarers whether officer or rating had to have one of these. However, I don't know when they came into force. The seafarer's 'official' number is printed on the Discharge Book and is known, unsurprisingly, as his Discharge No. The Discharge Book would give a record of all the vessels he signed on and off as well as his number and other details. I guess from the fact that you have no knowledge of his ships that you haven't found that book. The Discharge Book was considered important enough to be used by seafarers in lieu of a passport when flying to and from vessels abroad until the 70s or so when passports were enforced by some countries.

Another document would be his Seaman's Identity Book. This was a much thinner document so that it could be carried in a back pocket and used for id ashore, at dock gates, etc. This would also have his Discharge number on it.

The Discharge Book was a bluish-green colour (maybe mine has faded over the years) but the Identity book was a nice bright red. The id book was discontinued a few years back and, again, I don't know when they were first used.

[Dennis Harker]

I've just followed the instructions on the second link I gave you (www.crewlist.org.uk (http://www.crewlist.org.uk/)) to search one of the pouches online at the National Archives. I searched in BT372 and put the name Hart J in as the keyword. This came up with 3 pages of Harts J and their discharge numbers. The only Hart J H was listed as R310621 HART J H 30/05/1927 YARMOUTH. The R310621 is the discharge number for that person but I am not sure if the date is when he was issued with it or when he signed off a ship. I don't have time to research the NA website further just at the moment.

Whilst appreciating this is unlikely to be your father the crewlist website does give a whole bunch of pouches starting with BT122 that you can search through. Might be worth a try and save a few bob on petrol for the moment.

[harfin]

Dennis

You're diligence in my cause is amazing!
I will certainly pursue those links - once I have figured out why this b#####y pc keeps saying "you do not have cookies enabled". I have enabled both sites for cookies (clip and national archives) in the browser and in my firewall :-) It gets frustrating sometimes! I'll keep plugging away though. I will let you know how I get on too.

As to Dad's papers, I fear they have long been jettisoned. From 1963 onwards I lived overseas (Australia then NZ), and only came back to the UK in 1997. In the intervening period, both parents have passed away. My Dad pre-deceased my Mum and any of Dad's stuff was probably cleared out by her - little was passed on to either of my two elder brothers (as far as they remember anyway!).

All I have is snippets of conversation tucked away (somwhere) inside me little grey cells :-), that pop out from time to time.

Thanks so much again for your invaluable help

Alan

[harfin]

I've just followed the instructions on the second link I gave you (www.crewlist.org.uk (http://www.crewlist.org.uk/)) Whilst appreciating this is unlikely to be your father the crewlist website does give a whole bunch of pouches starting with BT122 that you can search through. Might be worth a try and save a few bob on petrol for the moment.

Dennis

Managed to solve the problem with access, and have now trawled through the various series at Kew. Cannot find and Harts with birthplace of Kent (Ramsgate) & pre-1915 date.
So he either told fibs (possible!) or his records just arent in those at Kew (probable).

Ah well, c'est la vie
Alan

[Ken Boyce]

Part 1
Hi Dennis
I've been following this thread with interest

My father served in the Merchant Navy in WW2 and according to the CWGC died aged 28 when the SS Pacific was sunk in the Atlantic in March 1941 (as a small kid I still remember my Mother's reaction to the dreaded telegram and the subsequent post war invitation for me to apply for the MN training school at Ipswich as if it were yesterday!)

To be continued

[Ken Boyce]

Part 2

I've made a number of efforts from this side of the pole to trace my fathers history and Death Cert and always come up blank (despite the fact that boxes of MN records apparently got lost because of lack of UK funding and ended up permanently in Atlantic Canada - I've also learnt more about the ship and who sunk her than details of my father) Part of the problem being not knowing how or why he was in the MN (Did he join in peace time or did he volunteer because of the war, or was he conscripted etc) I lost contact with the paternal side of the family a long time ago as my mother remarried.

My question is are the 'normal' MN archival sources as you have listed them applicable to the wartime period and to all MN seamen at thAt time

Regards

[Dennis Harker]

Harfin,

I wouldn't consign your father to being a 'fibber' just at the moment. I've never had to search MN records before but the covering documents all seem to refer to the fact that many records are incomplete or scattered around the UK or in Newfoundland Canada.

All I can suggest is to keep following the guidelines in those documents and try putting different keywords into search engines and see if you can come up with any more sites. I guess you are going to have to make personal visits to view records before long too.

Being pre-1913 I guess he may not have had any certificates - the websites do say that many officers went to sea without certification in those days and so there may have been a lack of other paperwork too!

There should be others on this forum who have had to search MN records. Maybe they can come up with some alternative suggestions.

[Dennis Harker]

Ken,

The problem is that I've never had to research MN archives so I am learning as this thread progresses.

By following the crewlist and register of shipping links I entered earlier in the thread you may be able to find the records to search. I am fairly certain WWII is covered but indications are that records may be incomplete.

I have looked at the Newfoundland University site (linked from the crewlist website) and come up with the following page. This may help both you and Harfin to at least know what records are available. Whether you can search them online or not remains to be seen.

www.
mun.ca/mha/research/principalrecords.php

Hope this helps - I am otherwise occupied for the next few days but will help out more if you're still looking for info early next week. In any event I will keep an eye on this thread so as to learn more myself!!

[Dennis Harker]

On the above linked page there is reference to MHA records which are those held in Newfoundland and there appear to be live links to those. Websites of the other agencies are given although I don't see one for the RSS which is probably the one you will need.However, one of the earlier links I gave :-

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/msf5330.pdf

Gives advice on how to search the RSS records for WWII info. The record is BT 381 and you should be able to search this online by following this link :-

www.
nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp?

I'm not sure if you enter the ship's name, number or a seaman's name in the keyword section but enter BT 381 in the department or series code and you may get some useful info. The mca advice is to search in BT 385 first to get the ship's official number.

Best of luck.

[Ken Boyce]

Thanks Dennis

I cannot followup on this for a week or two but will get onto it asap

Thanks again

Regards