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Ann65

31-08-2006, 10:30 PM

want to hear from anyone connected with the Gray gypsies who travelled Lincolnshire, Norfolk, Cambridge, and to a lesser extent, Suffolk.

Am descended from Christopher Gray b.1815 Thurlby Lincs, d.1869 Wrawby, when he was killed by a runaway horse and gig, and his wife, Maria Gray, b.1817 Willoughby Notts, daughter of William Smith (of Coleorton Leic) and Ann Elliot or Elliott (of Willoughby).

Also descended from Thomas Smith b.circa 1825 Skillington Lin, and his wife Mary Smith b.circa 1830, nee Brown.

Some of the Smiths married into the Grays, some the Elliotts, and some the Browns. Some of these have direct link to the Heron and Boss Pedigrees. (for instance, Stephen Smith married Isabella Pierce, dtr of Eldred Pierce).

Eldred Pierce married into the Heron family, as did his brother Stephen, they married two sisters, Morette/Miseretta/Mretta and Tierney/Tienna Heron. A third sister, Cinderella Heron married Richard WINTER. She was born cir 1832.

I am loosely related to the Grays of Norfolk - Founess and Constance, Oseri Gray and Eliza Heron (daughter of No Name HERON (I have seen his grave, with that of Tyso Boswell, and have newspaper reports of their deaths in 1831 at Tetford Lin, when struck by lightening.) Also related to Esther Tansey nee Gray, Genty Gray/Smith d.1918 Gorleston, Naomi Gray etc etc
Please contact me if anything here is familiar.

JoanneM

28-05-2008, 03:14 PM

Hello,

I've been researching my OH's ancestry, and he has connections with Gray and Smith gypsies in Lincolnshire - don't recognise the names you have mentioned but though I'd post in case the names are relevant to you.

I have Eldria(Eldery?) Gray (sometimes Mobbs) born c.1821 in Winsley, Northamptonshire and died 1862 in Lincoln who married Moses Smith who was born c.1816 in Harby, Leicestershire. Their son Rabbi Smith, born c.1855 in Nettleham, Lincs is my OH's ancestor.

Eldria Gray is the daughter of James Gray (Mobbs), born c.1795 and Bertha Smith born c.1800 in Seaton Rutland, daughter of Wisdom and Hannah Smith.

Also I have Sylvestia Smith, born c.1838 in Cabourne/Caistor, daughter of Dennis Smith and Eleanor Charlotte, born c.1817, Gamlingay. Eleanor's parents were John Charlotte and Sophia Smith, both of whom settled in Kirton in Lindsey.

Any links at all?

Jo.

Ann65

28-05-2008, 07:49 PM

Oh YES, I have researched this family.

From what Ive been able to glean thus far James Gray b.cir 1795 married Bertha/Bethania/Bethany Smith d/o Wisdom & Hannah, b.1800 Seaton, Rutland.

I dont know where this James came from, but he certainly went by the alias Mobbs, as did the children.

Children I have been able to find thus far are:

Eldria/Elderi/Elden Gray b.cir 1821 Winsley Nthants married Moses Smith c.1816 Harby Leic s/o Thomas & Sylvia.

Joshua Gray/Mobbs b.cir 1821-30 Ingham, Lincs married Harriet b.cir 1841 Blyborough Lin.

Righteous Gray C.1827 Elkesley Notts married Sagey Heron c.1836 Broughton Northants

Cornelius Gray c.1827 Elkesley Notts

Elias Gray b.cir 1844 Abbots Rippon Hunts married Amelia Heron sister of Sagey, c.1845 Haddington Nthants

Francis Gray/Mobbs b.cir 1835 Boston Lin, married Selina b.cir 1835

Johina Gray b.cir 1837

Moses Gray/Mobbs c.1840 Corringham Lin married Silvia Smith c.1841 d/o Robert & Tabitha.

It is worth adding that the latest discovery I have made is that Bethania Smith also had a liason (not uncommon in Romany circles) with William Gray c. 1791 Ashwell Hrts, who ended up with her sister, Tabitha Smith c.1803 Cropwell Bishop Northants. This William and Bethania were parents of William Gray c.1822 Ancaster Lincs who married Salome Ellen/Lumi Ellen Boyling (c.1823 Scampton).

Ann65

28-05-2008, 08:09 PM

Mobbs and Grays

Elderi Gray and Moses Smith had:

Thomas b.cir 1840 Harby Leic married Siberamily "Sibby" Smith b.cir 1840 Northampton
Sophia b.cir 1841 Harby Leic
Emma b.cir 1845 Normanby Lin
John b.cir 1850 Bishops Norton Lin
Rabbi Smith b.cir 1857 Nettleham Lin married Deloraine or Delorina b.cir 1851 Worksop
Sarah b.cir 1851 Willowson

Joshua Gray/Mobbs and Harriet had:

William b.cir 1853 Barrow Lin
Elijah "Lasher" b.cir 1856 Rand or Stockton Lin
Moses b.cir 1862 Barkwith Lin
Reajiel? b.cir 1864 Mkt Rasen Lin
Uriah b.cir 1869 Mkt Rasen Lin poss the Uriah Mobbs d.1940 Lincoln Workhouse, buried Newport Cem, married Mary Ann Wain in 1900.
Charles b.cir 1872 Mkt Rasen
Mary Ann b.cir 1875 Mkt Rasen

Righteous Gray and Sagey Heron had:
Alfred, Samuel, Nathan, Edward and Emily and settled at Kingsthorpe Nthants

Elias Gray and Amelia had:
Abigail b.1867 Kingsthorpe married Iza Heron s/o Isaac
Mary b.cir 1869 Halesowen Worc married Alfred Smith
Mizelli/Marcelli b.cir 1871 Walsall Stf
Sunpoleon "Poley" aka George b.cir 1876 Bloxwich Stf married Jane Smith
Matilda b.cir 1878 Walsall Stf married 1) Tom Winter b.cir 1858 Huddersfield, m1897
and 2) Rabbi Smith b.cir 1875 Kelsale Sfk, m.1928

Francis Gray/Mobbs and Selina had:

Cornelius b.cir 1860 Belton Lin
Avelin b.cir 1864 Astoft Yks (Altofts?)
Elisha b.cir 1867 Gainsborough Lin
Bethany b.cir 1868 Sheffield Yks
Delarina b.cir 1869 Yorkshire

Moses Gray/Mobbs and Sylvia Smith had:

Righteous b.cir 1860 Gainsborough married Lucy Rodgers 1882
Cornelius b.cir 1863 Springthorpe married Elizabeth Ellmore 1881
Levi b.cir 1865 Lincoln married Mary Ellen Gabbitas 1886
Mary J b.cir 1867 Tresswell Nott
James b.cir 1870 Gainsboro d.1953 Scroby Cem Scunthorpe, married Sophia 1875-1963
Elizabeth b.cir 1873 Gainsboro
Florence b.cir 1875 Gainsboro

Ann65

29-05-2008, 11:56 AM

I dont know of this family. I do know some of the Grays used to forename Sylvest(i)a for some of their girls, so they probably knew the family involved. Doesnt help that Smith is such a common surname. The only Dennis on the IGI is one c.1820 Bourne, Cam, s/o Shadrach and Martha. But they had three children baptised in the same village. Its certainly not unheard of for that to happen, but it makes me wonder if he is the right guy.

Have never looked into the Charlotte Family. But a quick look at the IGI reveals John Charlotte and Sophia having:

Edmund c.1822 Hickling Nthants
Helena (Eleanor) c. 1817 Gamblingay Cam
John c.1834 Welton Le Marsh Lin
James c.1835 Scredington Lin

Now Gamblingay and Scredington are two places I have seen the Grays stopping.

Sophia appears on the 1871 and 1881 census in Kirton in Lindsey as a widow, born cir 1793-6 in either Lincs or Leics. This is a possible link to my Smiths as they came from Coleorton Leic about the same time. There is a death for a John Charlotte registered Jun Qtr 1860 in Glanford Brigg dist 7a 391.

John Charlotte b.cir 1834 at Welton is almost certainly the John Charlot b.cir 1835 Lincoln who turns up in Hunslet Yorks in 1881. He is a clothes peg maker, and is living with Tennant Smith and family - another clue to the Smiths.

A look for James Charlotte turns up two possible James. The one born cir 1835 appears to be at 6 Cross Key Yard Mansfield, Notts, in 1881 (born cir 1832) and married to Etty b.cir 1852 Retford Notts. He is a Grinder.

A James Charlotte also turns up in 1871 b.cir 1849 Lincoln at Hunslet. He is married to a Mary and they are living with Elizah (Elijah?) Hawn (Heron??) and his wife Dinah. James also turns up on the 1851 census with his parents, Sistance Charlot and Lemontina Boswell at Ulceby Lin. Sistance claims a birthplace in Cambridgeshire, about 1820. This would put him in line to be another of Johns children, as almost certainly not all of them are on the IGI. This James was baptised 16.03.1849 Welton By Lincoln s/o Leiston Charlotte and Lamentina.

Even more confusingly, another James turns up b.cir 1826 Brigg, at Alverthorpe cum Thornes Yks in 1881. He is a peg maker, and married to Priscilla b.cir 1831 Cooper Bridge Hunts.

JoanneM

29-05-2008, 12:02 PM

Such a lot of information - thank you.

At the moment I'm assuming Rabbi Smith, born c.1855 Nettleham is my husbands ancestor.
He is descended from a daughter Delorina had, Sarah Ann Smith, baptised as illegitimate in Gainsborough in 1872. Rabbi and Delorina married in 1874 in Gainsborough (Delorina didn't list a father on her marriage certificate). In the 1881 census they are living at Dawsons Court in Lincoln with various Smith, Gray and Mobbs families. Sarah Ann is listed as a daughter of Philistia and Emily Smith. In 1891 she's back with Rabbi and Delorina, and when she married she named Rabbi as her father.

However, I do think that Delorina's family is linked with Rabbi's and so I'm tracing Rabbi's family back and trying to prove a link to Delorina to establish who her parents are.

In 1881 one of the families living with them is Francis Mobbs (Gray) born c.1835 Boston. They've got a daughter called Delerina, as you've mentioned. I think I've found Francis in 1841 in Wymondham - there are three families living together.

Robert Smith, 50, brazier, y
Evening Smith, 40, y
Noah Smith, 14, y
Robert Smith, 11, y
Thomas Smith, 7, y

Silvia Smith, 65, net maker, n
Moses Smith, 20, y
Violet Smith, 20, y
Thomas Smith, 20, n
Silvia Smith, 13, y
Meclare Smith, 12, n
Hasy Smith, 15, y
Thomas Smith, 11 months, n

Elston Gray, 15, n
James Mobs, 45, chair mender, y
Betty Mobs, 25, y
Sabrina Mobs, 4, n
Francis Mobs, 2, n

If I'm right the Moses Smith aged 20 is Rabbi's father. (Meclare and Hasy Smith and Elston Gray is my best guess at what is written, Meclare and Elston were female, Hasy male. The writing is very faint). Moses' brother Thomas is listed on a census transcription I've seen as being born in Tee, Scotland. He was actually baptised in Teigh, Rutland and I've found all but the 1851 and 1871 census returns for him. He settled in Eagle and was a musician (violin player/fiddler).

I also found Cornelius Gray/Mobbs born c.1860 Belton this morning on the 1891 census as a Smith.

1891 - Goole - gypsy tent
Cornelius Smith marr 33 basket maker, belton lincs
Sevesta Smith wife 23 dewsbury yorks
John Smith brother unm 27 scarboro
Evelea Smith sister unm 27 castoft(?) lincs
Laura Smith dau 1 born ? Bridge yorks

Evelea is, I believe, Avelin Mobbs from the 1881 census, and I'm wondering if the birthplace is actually Eastoft with Cornelius being born in Belton?

Anyway, will go through all the information you have sent to me now.

JoanneM

29-05-2008, 12:29 PM

JoanneM

29-05-2008, 02:24 PM

Uriah b.cir 1869 Mkt Rasen Lin poss the Uriah Mobbs d.1940 Lincoln Workhouse, buried Newport Cem, married Mary Ann Wain in 1900.

Quite possibly as Elderi/Eldria Gray is also buried at Newport Cem, she was buried August 8th 1862. I wonder if that means she also died in the workhouse?

Ann65

29-05-2008, 03:31 PM

I hope you dont mind Im going to wander off and play with the info you have given me and see what I can turn up for you :)

Ann65

29-05-2008, 04:56 PM

The 1841 Wymondham Census I have seen and noted Elderi Gray where you have transcribed Elston Gray.

On the 1861 Census for Green Bank, Thorne, Yorks
Class: RG9; Piece: 3525; Folio: 13; Page: 19

There is a Dennis Smith b.cir 1820 Leics Cork Maker
Caroline Smith b.cir 1838 Bardney Lin
Dennis Smith b.cir1841 Aybe Lin
George Smith b.cir 1846 Riston Lin
Israel Smith b.cir 1850 Saxilby Lin
Tennant Smith b.cir 1858 Histon Lin

Picked up from the IGI

Israel Smith s/o Dennis & Eleanor c.04.02.1849 Hemswell Lin

JoanneM

29-05-2008, 06:14 PM

Tennant Smith, son of Dennis Smith married a Caroline Lucy, so the Caroline and Tennant Smith could be his wife and son, although I don't have him recorded with a son named Tennant.

I hadn't seen the IGI reference to Israel, and you'd have thought I'd have picked up on Elderi Gray on the census - tried every way to read it.

The suggestion that Sistance Charlot may be a son of John Charlotte and Sophia Smith makes sense. There was quite a big gap between Eleanor born 1817 and Sylvester born 1827, now you have found Edmund born 1822, and quite possibly now Sistance in 1820.

I've managed to find Sistance on the 1891 census:
1891 Church Fenton, Yorkshire (gipsies in camp)
Cistance Sharlott marr 66 besom maker and tinware dealer, Burford, Oxfordshire
Lementina Sharlott wife 65, Leics Leek
William Sharlott son marr 29 Lincoln Kirton in Lindsey
Annie Sharlott daughter in law 24 Glamorgan Swansea
Matilda Sharlott daughter unm 19 Yorks Barwick in Elmet

If William was born in Kirton in Lindsey in about 1862 this is when Sylvestia Smith was living there. It would also make Sistance born around 1825, but still within the gap I had between baptisms.

Ann65

29-05-2008, 07:52 PM

There are certainly not that many Charlottes in "our" part of the country, and on that understanding, I should proceed as if Sistance were part of your group unless or until you find proof otherwise. In such cases I put a questionmark by the name until I can verify something, but it does make sense to place him on the Charlotte tree with the repetition of known romany stopping places and names.

Ann65

29-05-2008, 08:11 PM

Mother of Elizabeth Charlotte found on 1861 Census, I assume you are already aware of this one....

Class: RG9; Piece: 2397; Folio: 30; Page: 33
House and Shop, Kirton In Lindsey 1861

John Major 35 Radford Notts Glass & China Dealer
Elizabeth Major 32 Billington Lin (Billingborough or Billinghay, both of which were Rom stopping places)
Joseph Major 8 Kirton
John Major 4 Kirton
Alfred Major 1 Kirton
Lafiah Charlotte 68 Mother/wid b.Kirton In Lindsey

Ann65

29-05-2008, 08:19 PM

The suggestion that Sistance Charlot may be a son of John Charlotte and Sophia Smith makes sense. There was quite a big gap between Eleanor born 1817 and Sylvester born 1827, now you have found Edmund born 1822, and quite possibly now Sistance in 1820.

I've managed to find Sistance on the 1891 census:
1891 Church Fenton, Yorkshire (gipsies in camp)
Cistance Sharlott marr 66 besom maker and tinware dealer, Burford, Oxfordshire
Lementina Sharlott wife 65, Leics Leek
William Sharlott son marr 29 Lincoln Kirton in Lindsey
Annie Sharlott daughter in law 24 Glamorgan Swansea
Matilda Sharlott daughter unm 19 Yorks Barwick in Elmet

I found Matilda Sharlott married a Boswell........ take a look

Biggin Yks 1901 - Class: RG13; Piece: 4427; Folio: 104; Page: 4.
Thomas Boswell 35 Newark Notts Chimney Sweep
Matilda Boswell 30 Barwick In Elmet Yks
Martha Cunningham 7 Hull Yorks daughter (doesnt specify exactly whos daughter!)
Adelaide Boswell 3 Biggin Yks
Sistance Boswell 1 Biggin Yks
Reame Charlotte 82 Louth Lincs Mother In Law/wid

Mutley

29-05-2008, 08:27 PM

I realise that yours are not in my area but if you ever had any Smiths that visited mine in Mitcham, Surrey then I would be pleased to make their acquaintance :)
Black Hannah, Flower Seller, Fortune Teller and Peg Maker married to John.

Ann65

29-05-2008, 08:37 PM

Found them in 1881 at Humber St, Cleethorpes travelling with some of the Browns.

Lister Sharlott 59 (Sistance) Traveller hawker b.Louth
Matilda Sharlott 50 (Lemontina) b.Louth
Mary A Sharlott 18 b.Louth
Lillie Sharlott 15 b.Louth
Matilda Sharlott 10 b.Louth

William Brown 35 Grasby Lin
Sophia (Sinfai) Brown 29 Maxey Nthants (daughter of Eldred Pierce aka Winter aka Smith and Miseretta Heron)
John A (Arthur) Brown 7 b.Caistor
Agnes Brown 5 b.Torton Lin
Clare (Clara) Brown 3 b.Horncastle
Julia Brown 21 Boarder b.Alford

Ann65

29-05-2008, 08:46 PM

Hiya Mutley. Im not too well up on the southerly Romanies but I know some folki who are :D

passingthrough
romanygenes.

Have a look around (it might take a while!)

Mutley

29-05-2008, 09:34 PM

Thanks Ann,
Romany genes, I follow avidly.

Passingthrough was new and I think I have added another indirect family member, so thanks again.

PS Saw your piccie, looks good;)

JoanneM

29-05-2008, 10:44 PM

Can't thank you enough for all this information. I'm going to have to sit down and digest it all. I did have the 1861 for Sophia Charlotte which is how I found out about her daughter marrying John Major.

Couple of things I've found - a death on freebmd for 'Cystance' Charlotte, Selby, 1900 Dec qtr.

Also Cornelius Gray/Mobbs/Smith born c.1860 Belton seems to have got himself enumerated twice on the 1891 census.

There's the entry I'd already mentioned (missed Joshua off last time - sorry):
1891 - Goole - gypsy tent
Cornelius Smith marr 33 basket maker, Belton Lincs
Sevesta Smith, wife, marr 23 born Dewsbury, Yorkshire
Joshua Smith, son, 1, born Cave, Yorkshire
John Smith brother unm 27, born Scarboro
Evelea smith sister unm 27, born Castoft(?) lincs
Laura Smith dau 1 born ? Bridge yorks

And also:
1891 - Hook, Goole, Swinefleet Road, (tents & gipsies)
John Smith, head, marr, 29, peg maker, born Scarboro'
Avelina, wife, marr, 26, born Eastoft
Laura, daughter, 1, born Yorkshire River Bridge

Cornelius Smith, head, single, 33, basket maker, born Lincolnshire Belton
Silvester, concubine, single, born Yorkshire Dewsbury
Joshua, son, 1 born Yorkshire Cave

I knew I'd seen the entry before as I had the 1891 entry where Silvester (or Sylvesta) is a concubine. Sylvesta is the daughter of Sidney Smith and his wife Maria, Sidney being the son of Dennis Smith and Eleanor Charlotte. In 1901 Sylvesta is 'Vesta' Smith and is living alone with her children in Gainsborough.

Ann65

30-05-2008, 02:47 AM

Thanks Ann,
Romany genes, I follow avidly.

Passingthrough was new and I think I have added another indirect family member, so thanks again.

PS Saw your piccie, looks good;)

Thanks

Passingthrough has been around before on another server, Jackie is one of the great researchers, like Sue, they both have masses of info.

Ann65

30-05-2008, 02:49 AM

Can't thank you enough for all this information. I'm going to have to sit down and digest it all. .

Its been a pleasure, and its all helping me too, I am just a hopeless addict when it comes to the gypsies.

I must admit I have worn my brain out tonight, will have another look around tomorrow :)

Ann

JoanneM

30-05-2008, 11:38 AM

On the 1861 Census for Green Bank, Thorne, Yorks
Class: RG9; Piece: 3525; Folio: 13; Page: 19

There is a Dennis Smith b.cir 1820 Leics Cork Maker
Caroline Smith b.cir 1838 Bardney Lin
Dennis Smith b.cir1841 Aybe Lin
George Smith b.cir 1846 Riston Lin
Israel Smith b.cir 1850 Saxilby Lin
Tennant Smith b.cir 1858 Histon Lin

Picked up from the IGI

Israel Smith s/o Dennis & Eleanor c.04.02.1849 Hemswell Lin

I've been looking further into this, and I do think that this is the Dennis Smith who was married to Eleanor Charlotte. I'm wondering if the younger Dennis is actually Tennant Smith (who married Caroline Lucy) as Tennant was born c.1840 as one of the possible birthplaces I have for him is Irby on Humber - Irby/Aybe, maybe?

There's a possible census entry for Israel Smith in Armley in 1891:
Israel Smith, head, 45, clothes eg hawker, born Lincs Kirton in Lindsey
Sibham(?), wife, 41, assistant hawker, born Yorks Cropton
Hartleys, son, 21, clothes peg hawker, born Yorks Pickering
Tennant, son, 18, clothes peg hawker, born Yorks Halifax
George, son, 15, assistant hawker, born Yorks Halifax
Ann A., dau, 11, scholar, born Durham Newcastle
Cinderella, dau, 8, scholar, born Yorks Hunslet
Benjamin, son, 4, born Yorks Holbeck
Mary, dau, 4 months, born Yorks Armley

Ann65

30-05-2008, 05:01 PM

I've been looking further into this, and I do think that this is the Dennis Smith who was married to Eleanor Charlotte. I'm wondering if the younger Dennis is actually Tennant Smith (who married Caroline Lucy) as Tennant was born c.1840 as one of the possible birthplaces I have for him is Irby on Humber - Irby/Aybe, maybe?

I thought the exact same thing. The only thing I can think of is that the younger Tennant Smith died and Dennis took his name. Because Tennant is right there....

It doesnt seem to add up, unless we take into account the possibility that the enumerator had absolute no idea how old they were and guessed - which did happen, but due to the outdoor lifestyle usually worked in the opposite direction, making them appear older.

Ann65

30-05-2008, 05:02 PM

There's a possible census entry for Israel Smith in Armley in 1891:
Israel Smith, head, 45, clothes eg hawker, born Lincs Kirton in Lindsey
Sibham(?), wife, 41, assistant hawker, born Yorks Cropton
Hartleys, son, 21, clothes peg hawker, born Yorks Pickering
Tennant, son, 18, clothes peg hawker, born Yorks Halifax
George, son, 15, assistant hawker, born Yorks Halifax
Ann A., dau, 11, scholar, born Durham Newcastle
Cinderella, dau, 8, scholar, born Yorks Hunslet
Benjamin, son, 4, born Yorks Holbeck
Mary, dau, 4 months, born Yorks Armley

Im very interested in the fact that a Hartley appears there. Im darned sure I saw a Hartley somehow related somewhere along the Grays line - but I cant remember where for the life of me.

Ann65

30-05-2008, 05:32 PM

The William Gray who became "involved" with Bethania Smith b.1800 Seaton Rutland was born cir 1791 Ashwell Hrts s/o Charles and "Equally". This corresponds to Charles Gray and Aquilla/Aquilla Smith. Charles was born 1765 Ashwell Hrts s/o Codilla Gray. Where she comes into things I really dont know, I have seen various early couples such as Thomas and Elizabeth, Peter and Sarah, and George & Martha Gray. I am sure that Codilla fits into this scheme as all were around the Hrts/Cam area abt this time.

I have looked and looked for other possible Williams but this seems to be the only candidate.

As I said previously, this William Gray also married Tabitha Smith, Bethanias sister. By her hed had:

(one supposedly - was attributed to him) Hannah b.cir 1820 Ingleby Lin married Josiah Smith.
Sidney c.1824 Nth Wheatley Notts married a Violet, and then Edingail/Mary Ann Smith,
Eldereye c.1824 Essendine Rutland
Charlotte c.1826 Askham Notts
Messiah c.1830 Saxilby Lin
Kalias b.cir 1830 died cir 1830
Alexander c.1834 Harmston Lin
Mary c.1836 Welton By Lincoln
Josiah c.1840 Welton By Lincoln
Haradine b.cir 1847 Ponteract Yrks
Carli/Kelli/Kalias Gray b.cir 1852 Sth Carlton Lin married Eve/Eva b.cir 1851 Sth Ferriby.

Ann65

30-05-2008, 05:39 PM

The William c.1822 Ancaster who was the son of William and Bethania, as opposed to Tabitha, married Lumi/Laommi/Salome Ellen Boyling/Boiling d/o George and Joyce (Tansey).

Now George Boyling and Joyce settled in Nettleham before they died, and are both buried there, he in 1873, and she in 1885. Salome Ellen was christened in 1823 at Scampton Lincs, and repeatedly appears on census on her own. This lends credence to the theory that William Gray died young.

William and Lumi/Laommi/Salome Ellen had:

Elias/Eli b.cir 1840-45 Nettleham married Sarah A. Smith
Drusilla b.cir 1845 Ingham Lin married Walter Smith s/o William Smith and Mausolina Heron but she supposedly ran away and lived with a Pat Campbell. This appears to be late in life.
Lucy b.cir 1850 Sheffield (no other info)
Esther b.cir 1855 Barnsley Yks
Joycey b.cir 1858 Bradford, married 1) Heenan Herring (Heron) 1874 Barnsley Dist Yrks, and 2) William King - know a living descendant of this family.
Mary A. b.cir 1864 Wath Yks, married Thomas Humberstone

JoanneM

30-05-2008, 06:31 PM

Thank you once again, there's a lot of information to go through there.

Sidney c.1824 Nth Wheatley Notts married a Violet, and then Edingail/Mary Ann Smith

Don't know how common the name Violet was, but there is a Violet Smith, daughter of Thomas and Sylvia and brother to Moses. She was baptised 1819 in Melton Mowbray so about the right age.

Ann65

30-05-2008, 07:00 PM

I know. I just cant prove it.

....

JoanneM

30-05-2008, 09:34 PM

Just looking at the 1861 census entry for Moses Smith in Reepham where Joshua Gray (born c.1821-30 Ingham) is listed as his brother-in-law.

Am I right in thinking that the William and Elisha Smith aged 7 and 5 years are Joshua's sons William and Elijah "Lasher" as the ages match?

And is the Harriet Smith listed Joshua's wife? Her birthplace is enumerated at Blyton but looking at it, it could be Blyboro.

Also, are Harriet Brown and Harriet Smith one and the same person? They're both the same age and Willoughton is less than a mile away from Blyborough.

Ann65

31-05-2008, 08:04 AM

JoanneM

31-05-2008, 08:23 AM

Good morning to you. They didn't make it easy for us did they?

Im very interested in the fact that a Hartley appears there. Im darned sure I saw a Hartley somehow related somewhere along the Grays line - but I cant remember where for the life of me.

I've been trying to find the Hartley Smith born c.1870 in Pickering, son of Israel Smith on an earlier census. I think I might have found him enumerated as Arkless Smith in 1871, but if it is him Israel is now John Smith. What do you think?

1871 Durham, West Auckland

John Smith, head, 18, clothes peg maker, born Lincolnshire Courting Linvey (Kirton Lindsey?)
Hannah, wife, 20, born York Wakefield
Artleys, son, 1, born York Pickering

Artleys Smith, head, 56, lab, born Rutland Freeby?
Mary, wife, 48, born Lincoln Eppeth (Epworth?)
Ellen, dau, 15, born York Bradford
Tamar, dau, 13, born York Emsell
Elias, son, 8, born York Wakefield
Mary A., dau, 6, born York Wakefield
Eliza, dau, 3, born York Wakefield

Zechariah Boson (?), head, 22, clothes peg maker, born York Condon?
Susanah, wife, 24, born York Leeds
Charlotte, dau, 8, born York Walmgate
Zechariah, son, 4, born York Walmgate
George, son, 1, born York Walmgate
Dinah Lander (?), sister, 14, born York Walmgate

JoanneM

31-05-2008, 11:36 AM

Artleys Smith, head, 56, lab, born Rutland Freeby?
Mary, wife, 48, born Lincoln Eppeth (Epworth?)
Ellen, dau, 15, born York Bradford
Tamar, dau, 13, born York Emsell
Elias, son, 8, born York Wakefield
Mary A., dau, 6, born York Wakefield
Eliza, dau, 3, born York Wakefield

Artleys Smith is Arkless Smith in the 1861 and is at Stanley cum Wrenthorpe (I note Salome Ellen Gray is also at Stanley cum Wrenthorpe in 1861). Travelling with Artleys/Arkless in 1861 is a Magney(?) Smith, 28, born Derbyshire, his wife Mary, 24, and son Albert E., 1, both born Lincolnshire. Albert E. Smith is listed as being deaf - this interests me as my husbands ancestor Sarah Ann Smith, daughter of Rabbi and Delarina was deaf, and on the 1891 census Tennant Smith (born c.1840 Irby on Humber) is also listed as deaf.

Ann65

31-05-2008, 12:21 PM

This Arkless smith (ie b.cir 1830 Rutland) turns up in 1881 at the Green, Wuerdle and Wardle Lancs:

Hercules Smith 56 Truby Rutland Pedlar
Mary Smith 58 Lincoln Hawker
Elias Smith 17 Wakefield Yks Hawker
Marianne Smith 15 Wakefield Yks Hawker
Eliza Smith 13 Wakefield Yks Hawker

JoanneM

01-06-2008, 08:29 PM

Hi Ann,

Could I pick your brains again and ask for help in deciphering this family please?

I have looked and looked over the years for any sign of Delerina/Dilarany Smith, who married Rabbi Smith prior to the 1872 baptism of her daughter. I've found someone on the 1871 census who matches very closely but the family has a Smith as a mother and sons with surnames Smith, Gray and Boswell and I'm completely lost. (Should note I have Delarina's marriage cert and she doesn't name a father on it).

1871 - Laneham Notts - in a tent
Alice Smith head widow 40 gipsy wandering life nk (obviously a deal older than this if she has a son aged 40)
Joseph Gray son unm 20 Notts Treswell
Jeremiah Boswell son marr 40 gipsy life Notts Babworth
Hannah Smith dau 15 Gainsboro
Francis Smith son marr 38 Lincs Kegsby(?)
Emily Smith dau 3 Winterton
Deliremy Smith dau 5 Yorks Kirton/Kirby(?)
Elisha Smith 7 Gainsboro
Dilerany dau 14 yorks Oldcoates

It's the Dilerany aged 14 that interests me. She's enumerated at Delisamy with a birthplace of Oldcoster, but looking at it I think it's Dilerany from Oldcoates. On later census returns the Delerina I'm looking for gave her birthplace as Worksop and there is an Oldcotes very close to Worksop. She's slightly too young but everything else fits.

I've tried to find this family on the 1861 but only managed to find Jeremiah Boswell and daughter Hannah, and I've seen a baptism for Jeremiah in 1832 at Babworth to Alice Boswell.

Have you any idea about this family?

Jo.

Ann65

01-06-2008, 08:45 PM

The boswells are a huuuuuuuuuggggggggggggggggeeeeeeeeeee family - I think I MIGHT just be able to help a wee bit although I cant answer all your questions.

Jeremiah Boswell b.cir 1832 Babworth Notts was the son of Elijah Boswell by one of his wives Alice Smith (he also married her sister Delizanna). Alice and Delizanna were reputedly the daughters of a William Smith and a Jemima Gray - I have not yet been able to work out who exactly they were. There was also another sister, Charlotte Smith.

Now what is exciting here, is that Elijah Boswell was suposed to have travelled the Midlands with one William Gray. This was the same William Gray who married Tabitha and had a liason with her sister Bethania.

Ok so this is what I have on Elijah Boswell:

b.cir 1798 he was the son of Elijah Boswell and Elizabeth Smith.

He married Harriet Woodward 14.02.1820 Walesby Notts they had quite a few children.

Isaiah or Elisha c.1823 Welbourn Lin
Herilah c.1827 Bole Notts d.1896 married Levanci/Lurancy Charlotte in 1855
William c.1827 Gamston Nott
Erydina (Smith or Boswell) c.1830 Upper Langwith Dby
Adam c.1830 Walesby m. Elizabeth Ellis b.1829 Warrington Lancs
Sidney c.1831 Walesby
Annice c.1832 East Markham Nott
Joseph c.1837 Clarborough Nott
Lucy c.1846 Scotter Lincs.

Elijah also married Delizanna Smith b.cir 1802 m.1823 Newton In The Wolds, Notts

(no known issue)

He also married Alice Smith (no marriage dates found thus far) and had:

Okey c.1830 Sutton Cum Lound, Notts
Jeremiah c.1832 Babworth Notts
Magnus c.1834 Longford Dby
Rudolphus c.1836 Babworth Nott
Walter c.1851 Kneesall Nott

Ann65

01-06-2008, 09:07 PM

JoanneM

02-06-2008, 06:43 AM

Furthermore, this Elisha Smith appears to be at Whitton Lin 1891
Elisha Smith 26 b.Gainsboro
Susannah Smith 1861 Newark
William Smith 1880 Newark
Thomas Smith 1882 Newark
Cornelius Smith 1886 Gainsboro
Elizabeth Smith 1886 Lincs
Frances Smith 1890 Lincs

And is he Elisha Mobbs in 1881, son of Francis Mobbs? They're in Dawsons Court in Lincoln with Rabbi and Delerina.

Ann65

02-06-2008, 06:52 AM

Without taking another look at the 1881 census - its a possibility isnt it? Elisha Mobbs had a sister Delarina in 1869 b.Yorkshire...... Im going to go and have another look lol

Ann65

02-06-2008, 07:03 AM

I just wrote a reply and am now deleting it as I was looking at the wrong Elisha Mobbs!!!

Francis Mobbs and his family (incl Elisha) were at 1 The Hut, Dawsons Ct in 1881, listed as Mobbs, not Smith

I guess it could be him but why would he later change his name to smith? silly q I know, considering Ive no idea why they changed their name to Mobbs.

JoanneM

02-06-2008, 07:14 AM

Could the Alice Smith who's a boarder with Francis Mobbs in 1881 be the Alice Smith from 1871, mother of Jeremiah Boswell?

Ann65

02-06-2008, 07:19 AM

Its certainly possible. If her age was wrong (nothing new there with the Romanies).

Ann65

02-06-2008, 04:41 PM

Ive been going through some notes. I picked these up a while ago from Family History Onlines National Burial Index.

3 in same grave:
Name DELINA SMITH – Date of Death 1897-NOV Age or Date of Birth 44 Place WILMSLOW Burial Ground ST BARTHOLOMEW CofE Grave No B.p 37 Ordnance Survey RefSJ=848 814 Fiche 44 b.1853
SUSANNAH SMITH – Date of Death 1897-MAY Age or Date of Birth 87 Place b.1810 WILMSLOW Burial Ground ST BARTHOLOMEW CofE Grave No B.p 37 Ordnance Survey RefSJ=848 814 Fiche 44
MOSES SMITH – Date of Death 1888-AUG Age or Date of Birth 81 Place WILMSLOW Burial Ground ST BARTHOLOMEW CofE Grave No B.p 37 Ordnance Survey RefSJ=848 814 Fiche 44 b.1807

Name Delorainie SMITH Date 15 Mar 1870 Aged 11 Place Ecclesfield Description St Mary Denomination Anglican County code WRY b.1859

Name Delphi SMITH Date 5 Jan 1864 Aged inf Place Sleaford Description St Denys Denomination Anglican County code LIN b.1863

Thats all the info there was from that source, but I guess its a few more leads to check up on?

Ann65

02-06-2008, 05:22 PM

I forgot these.....

Tabitha GRAY Date 26 Dec 1867 Aged 65 Place Newton on Trent Description St Peter Denomination Anglican County code LIN
1802

Eldera SMITH Date 8 Aug 1865 Aged 42 Place Lincoln Description St Nicholas Denomination Anglican County code LIN 1823

Name Eldri SMITH Date 8 Aug 1865 Aged 42 Place Lincoln Description Newport Cemetery Denomination Cemetery County code LIN

JoanneM

04-06-2008, 10:21 AM

1871 - Laneham Notts - in a tent
Alice Smith head widow 40 gipsy wandering life nk (obviously a deal older than this if she has a son aged 40)
Joseph Gray son unm 20 Notts Treswell
Jeremiah Boswell son marr 40 gipsy life Notts Babworth
Hannah Smith dau 15 Gainsboro
Francis Smith son marr 38 Lincs Kegsby(?)
Emily Smith dau 3 Winterton
Deliremy Smith dau 5 Yorks Kirton/Kirby(?)
Elisha Smith 7 Gainsboro
Dilerany dau 14 yorks Oldcoates

It's the Dilerany aged 14 that interests me. She's enumerated at Delisamy with a birthplace of Oldcoster, but looking at it I think it's Dilerany from Oldcoates. On later census returns the Delerina I'm looking for gave her birthplace as Worksop and there is an Oldcotes very close to Worksop. She's slightly too young but everything else fits.

I'm now certain that the Dilerany aged 14 above is the Delerina I've been looking for, and the help you've given to me has been invaluable. I can place most of the people in the 1871 census entry as being with her in Dawsons Court, Lincoln in 1881.

Although the relationships are not right in 1871 with everyone being listed as a son or daughter of Alice when they quite clearly all are not, I'm wondering if she is a natural daughter of Alice?

With the information you've given I see the relationships as:

Alice Smith head widow 40 gipsy wandering life nk

Joseph Gray son unm 20 Notts Treswell
(possibly the son of William and Mary Gray who are travelling with Tabitha Smith in 1861)

Jeremiah Boswell son marr 40 gipsy life Notts Babworth
(son of Elijah Boswell and Alice Smith)
Hannah Smith dau 15 Gainsboro
(daughter of Jeremiah and Lunetta(?) Boswell)

Francis Smith son marr 38 Lincs Kegsby(?)
(Francis Gray/Mobbs/Smith son of James Gray and Bethania Smith)
Emily Smith dau 3 Winterton
Deliremy Smith dau 5 Yorks Kirton/Kirby(?)
Elisha Smith 7 Gainsboro
(All children of Francis Gray/Mobbs/Smith)

Dilerany dau 14 yorks Oldcoates

This leaves 'Dilerany'. Joseph is too young to be her father, I've got Jeremiah on the 1861 and she's not listed with him there, and Francis already has a daughter of that name. I also keep thinking that the name Delirana is quite similar to Delizanna.

JoanneM

04-06-2008, 10:27 AM

One other thing that does interest me, and I'm wondering if it helps to link the families up, is the instances of deafness.

From the info on the Boswells which you listed you gave Magnus Boswell, born c.1834 Longford Dby as a son of Elijah Boswell and Alice Smith. The age/birthplace is right for him to be Magney Smith in 1861 who has a one year old son Albert E. who is deaf.

If Delirana is a daughter of Alice Smith, then she also went on to have a child who was deaf.

Have you come across any other cases of deafness in this family line?

Ann65

05-06-2008, 07:50 PM

It looks to me like you have most likely nailed your Delorania - its such a hard name to track down as its so hard for enumerators to spell and often goes with shortened forms.

Ive seen so many oddities. One case is a Lorania Boss b.cir 1820 who went on to appear on census and in records of her transported brother as Deloraney Tylorania and Deborania, amongst others!

As for the deafness - Im not aware of it Im afraid, the only thing I was aware of was a report of night-blindness amongst some of the Heron/Smith family.

babygirl101

22-06-2008, 07:20 AM

Help, I'm totally confused, I've found a Tabitha on the 1851 Census in Pontefract. She was married to William as I expected, but I can't work out who Josiah is. According to my information they had a son Josiah, but not until 1840 which would hae made him 11 in 1851, not 36 and this records Josiah as son-in-law!!

Can anyone shed any light on this:-

Tabitha Grey
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William
Gender: Female
Where born: N

Civil Parish: Pontefract
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Pontefract
Sub registration district: Pontefract
ED, institution, or vessel: 4 and 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 68
Household Members: Name Age
Cale Grey 4 (son)
Mary Grey 15 (daughter)
Tabitha Grey 50
William Grey 57
Hannah Smith 31 (daughter)
Josiah Smith 36 (son in law)
Mezzia Smith 3 (grand daughter)
Otho Smith 6 Mo (grandson)
Sophia Smith 10 (grand daughter)
Winsse Smith 12 (grandson)

Thanks :) |banghead|

babygirl101

20-07-2008, 07:29 AM

Just to add to the confusion you mention a Thomas Smith c 1840 son of Elderi Gray & Moses Smith who married Siberamily.

I have a Thomas Smith who was shown as the son of Robert & Evening Smith. IGI records his details as being christened 15th June 1834, Harby Leic and son of Robert & Evelin. He is shown on the 1841 census as travelling with them, aged 7.

I have just received the death certificates for Robert & Evening.

Robert died 1882, aged 91 years, in attendance at his death was a Sybilla Smith, daughter in law.

Evening died 7th January 1872 aged 79 years, in attendance son Thomas Smith.

Are these the same people, I wonder???? Do you have anything to validate that the Thomas you mention was definitely Elderi & Moses' son. If so then there must have been 2 Thomas's around the same age, I'd love to know as I'm getting more and more confused.|banghead|

Many thanks

BG

[QUOTE=Ann65;164546]Mobbs and Grays

Elderi Gray and Moses Smith had:

Thomas b.cir 1840 Harby Leic married Siberamily "Sibby" Smith b.cir 1840 Northampton
Sophia b.cir 1841 Harby Leic
Emma b.cir 1845 Normanby Lin
John b.cir 1850 Bishops Norton Lin
Rabbi Smith b.cir 1857 Nettleham Lin married Deloraine or Delorina b.cir 1851 Worksop
Sarah b.cir 1851 Willowson

Ann65

24-07-2008, 09:50 AM

You may just have struck solid Gold.

My workings out were based on IGI records and Census returns - not BMD data.

Therefore I cannot be 100 per cent positive - but I work to the best of my ability with the info available and am only too happy to a) help others and research more using new hints and b) accept Im wrong sometimes. This clearly needs more work - and Im only too happy to retrace steps and try and see if I can work it out.

I am sorry havent been around lately - had a huge hard disk failure and again (this the second time) lost some info - thankfully no where near as much as the first time it happened.

Im going to go off and see what I can find out, but I shall return :)

Ann65

24-07-2008, 10:54 AM

babygirl101

24-07-2008, 05:44 PM

You're right. There were two Thomas Smiths, one son of Robert and Evening b.1834 Harby Leic, the other son of Moses and Elderi Smith b.cir 1840 Harby Leic.

Thomas son of Robert and Evening Smith married Siberamily b.cir 1840 Northants.

Thomas son of Moses and Elderi married Sophia b.cir 1850 Caistor Lin, and had a son John b.cir 1878 Lincoln.

Sorry I got it wrong, but at least now we have nailed another piece of the puzzle!! its all good. :)

We're getting there slowly but surely - my padded cell is looking even more tempting by the minute hehe!!!

Ifs and buts again ...

If I try to follow that through then, my Robert Smith was the sister of Tabitha Smith who married William Grey. It appears that it was their daughter Elderi who married Moses that would make the 2 Thomas's 2nd cousins (I think) and given that they were both born in the same place makes it even more likely...

I've tracked them all down on the 1841 census and they were travelling together. Robert Smith, Evening and their children, along with Moses Smith & Elden (Elderi Gray), plus several from the Mobbs family.

The only slight hiccup is that Elden was recorded as only being 15, so I can't confirm her as Thomas's mother as yet!! That apart, I think I've got the right people. According to the 1841 census they were in Wymondham, Leicestershire at that time which would fit with the Harby connection, I think. I haven't managed to find any of them on the 1851 census as yet - so onwards and upwards and thank you for all your help. If I find anything more I'll report back.

I'm off to search from Roberts daughter who I've just discovered - Sesevoy (b. 1822).

BG

Ann65

24-07-2008, 07:19 PM

Ann65

24-07-2008, 07:22 PM

I've tracked them all down on the 1841 census and they were travelling together. Robert Smith, Evening and their children, along with Moses Smith & Elden (Elderi Gray), plus several from the Mobbs family.

The only slight hiccup is that Elden was recorded as only being 15, so I can't confirm her as Thomas's mother as yet!! That apart, I think I've got the right people. According to the 1841 census they were in Wymondham, Leicestershire at that time which would fit with the Harby connection, I think.

BG

Elderis age would have been rounded down as its the 1841 Census. According to other records I have found for her she was born cir 1821 Winsley Nthants, which would make her about 19 when she had Thomas.

JoanneM

24-07-2008, 07:39 PM

I've been following this with interest, and I'm the one that posted on the Routes site about Surrender. In 1861 his wife is Adelaide, aged 30, born Notts. From other census returns I've found her on I'm pretty sure that she is the daughter of Elijah Boswell and Charlotte Smith (Erydina bapt 5th Dec 1830 Upper Langwith). So I think it is Adelaide who is sister to Henry and Lucy.

Surrender is on the 1841 as a child as follows (bracketed text is my notes):

1841 – Kingsley, Staffordshire
Moses Boswell 35 grinder N (bapt 9/5/1804 Bromsgrove Worcs s/o Solivens and Comfort Boswell)
Estus(Esther?) Boswell 35 N
John Boswell 15 Y
Charlotte Boswell 15 N
Henry Boswell 10 N (bapt 20/8/1825 Sutton on the Hill, Derby)
Gren(?) Boswell 10 N
SURRENDER BOSWELL 8 Y
Maname Boswell (female) 6 N
Maneyar Boswell (female) 4 N
Adam Boswell 2 N
Eliza Boswell 1 month N (bapt 24/5/1841 Malpas Cheshire)
Samuel Boswell 30 grinder N
Hannah Boswell 35 N
Cinderella Boswell 12 N
Caroline Boswell 9 N (Corolenia bapt 20/3/1831 Horkstow Lincs)
Thomas Boswell 6 N
Sartubla (female) Boswell 5 N
John Delina Boswell 4 N
Simon Millward (Boswell?) 3 N
Comfort Boswell 55 net maker N (poss Comfort Wood, married ‘Vaino (Waimore) Boss (Solivaino Boswell) 1812 Knowle Warwickshire)
William Boswell 20 grinder N
George Boswell 15 Y
Mary Boswell 15 N
Salen(?) Boswell 15 N
Rodaman Boswell 14 N
John Boswell 12 N
Hairywall Boswell 10 N
Pheonix Boswell 9 N
Thamore Boswell 5 Y

babygirl101

24-07-2008, 08:07 PM

Back again with a bit more for you.

Going back to Moses and Elderi, their daughter Emily Smith b.cir 1845 Normanby Lin

married Philistia Smith b.cir 1843 Keadby? Lin.

Now he turns up on the 1861 Census with Surrender Smith b.cir 1834 Mattersey Nott and is listed as a brother. I have seen it said on the Routes site (I think you are there yes?) that this Surrender Smith was born a Boswell, and also used the alias Render Sherriff (which is strangely familiar to me!).

With Surrender and Philistia in 1861 were
Henry Smith brother b.cir 1839 Stockwith and
Lucy Smith sister b.cir 1843 Scottor Lin.

Now if these are Boswells, I have found this Lucy.

Lucy Boswell c.13.05.1846 Scotter Lin was the daughter of Elijah Boswell and his wife Harriet Woodward. This is the same Elijah Boswell who was married to both Delizanna Smith and her sister Alice Smith. It is also the same Elijah Boswell who travelled this area with William Gray (Senior), the one who was married to Tabitha Smith.

Just a quickie whilst I try to take all of this in - I've found an EMMA not EMILY on 1861 census, right dob and place of birth and a Charlotte.

This is who's on the list:-
Harriet Brown 24
Joshua Gray 31
Elizabeth Mobbs 63
Lettitia Mobbs 16
Charlott Smith 37
Eldred Smith 40
Elisha Smith 5
Emma Smith 15
Harriet Smith 24
John Smith 11
Moses Smith 44
Robbi Smith 4
Sarah Smith 10
Sophia Smith 20
Sophia Smith 16
Thomas Smith 21
Thomas Smith 50
Walter Smith 3 Mo
William Smith 7

I'll keep working at it
BG

babygirl101

24-07-2008, 08:10 PM

Elderis age would have been rounded down as its the 1841 Census. According to other records I have found for her she was born cir 1821 Winsley Nthants, which would make her about 19 when she had Thomas.

I'm sure you're right about that. I'm sure it's the right person, but as I keep finding they weren't that good with ages were they hehe!!! After all I'm still 21 (not!!)

BG

babygirl101

24-07-2008, 08:45 PM

Back again with a bit more for you.

Going back to Moses and Elderi, their daughter Emily Smith b.cir 1845 Normanby Lin

married Philistia Smith b.cir 1843 Keadby? Lin.

Now he turns up on the 1861 Census with Surrender Smith b.cir 1834 Mattersey Nott and is listed as a brother. I have seen it said on the Routes site (I think you are there yes?) that this Surrender Smith was born a Boswell, and also used the alias Render Sherriff (which is strangely familiar to me!).

With Surrender and Philistia in 1861 were
Henry Smith brother b.cir 1839 Stockwith and
Lucy Smith sister b.cir 1843 Scottor Lin.

Now if these are Boswells, I have found this Lucy.

Lucy Boswell c.13.05.1846 Scotter Lin was the daughter of Elijah Boswell and his wife Harriet Woodward. This is the same Elijah Boswell who was married to both Delizanna Smith and her sister Alice Smith. It is also the same Elijah Boswell who travelled this area with William Gray (Senior), the one who was married to Tabitha Smith.

You mention a Render Sheriff - on the 1861 Census there's a Sheriff Render, aged 47 living along with the Smith, Mobbs and Boswells at Dawsons Court Lincolnshire. I've also found my Siberamily & Thomas who were present at the deaths of Robert & Evening Smith according to their death certs. Moses (father of the other Thomas c1841) is there too as a widow.

I presume you've already come across these pages? I'm going to print them out and begin to try to untangle them eeeeekk unless someone else has already done this ?? !!

BG

Ann65

24-07-2008, 08:53 PM

Excellent Joanne :)

Baby - Emma in 1861 is Emily who married Philista Smith, Im sure she is. Both b.cir 1845 Normanby.

Ann65

24-07-2008, 08:55 PM

thanks, yeah I had all the Dawsons court folks. I knew that name was familiar!

JoanneM

24-07-2008, 08:58 PM

Excellent Joanne :)

Baby - Emma in 1861 is Emily who married Philista Smith, Im sure she is. Both b.cir 1845 Normanby.

And I think she's back to Emma again in 1891, and that Clisby Smith is Philistia. The witnesses on their marriage cert were Rabbi Smith and Mary Ann Gray.

1891 – Bridge Street Lodging House, Gainsboro
James Mobbs lodger mar 20 hawker Gainsboro (s/o Moses Gray and Silvia Smith?)
Sophia Mobbs lodger mar 18 hawker Gainsboro (d/o Sydney and Edingal Gray?)
David Gray lodger unm 21 Market Rasen (grandson of William Gray and Tabitha Smith, s/o Sydney and Edingal Gray)
Mary A. Gray lodger mar 55 Boston (Edingal Gray, w/o Sydney Gray)
Clisby Smith lodger mar 30 hawker Keadby (Philistia Smith?)
Emma Smith lodger mar 30 hawker Keadby (w/o Philistia, d/o Moses Smith and Eldria Gray?)
Harriet Smith lodger unm 50 hawker Epworth

Ann65

24-07-2008, 09:03 PM

Aha! the plot thickens!!

:)

JoanneM

24-07-2008, 09:04 PM

I presume you've already come across these pages? I'm going to print them out and begin to try to untangle them eeeeekk unless someone else has already done this ?? !!

BG

I've tried, but I'm still a beginner on these families. My take on it is (and I reckon there's a few Boswells going by the name Smith in there):

1881 – Dawsons Court, Lincoln
Philistia Smith, head, mar, 46, gen lab, Keadby Lincs
Emily wife mar 40 Toft Lincs (d/o Moses Smith and Eldria Gray)
Sarah A. dau 10 scholar Gainsborough (d/o Rabbi and Delerina Smith)
Bertha no relationship, 40, Willerton Notts (poss Bathia Boswell in 1861, m/o Adam Boswell/Smith?)
Lucy dau 5 Haxey Lincs
Aradine dau 8 Tickhill Yorks
Alice no relationship 40 Nottingham (poss d/o Elijah Boswell?)
Adam Smith head mar 31 gen lab Kingswood Lighton Yorks (poss s/o William and Bathia Boswell on 1861?)
Hannah wife mar 20, Gainsborough (d/o Jeremiah and Lunetta Boswell)
Jane dau 11 months Lincoln
Geattie son 4 Lincoln
Jeremiah Smith, f-in-law, widower, 40, gen lab, Bubworth Notts (s/o Elijah Boswell and Alice Smith)
Geattie, brother, unm, 27, Gunthorp Lincs (s/o William and Bathia Boswell)
Rylee brother unm, 27 Weller Common Notts (poss Elijah Boswell on 1861, s/o William and Bathia Boswell?)
Sherriff Render boarder mar 47 Everton Notts (Surrender Boswell/Smith)
Adeline Sheriff boarder mar 42 Langworth Derby (Adelaide, w/o Surrender Boswell/Smith, d/o Elijah Boswell)
William Smith boarder mar? 15, Seaton York (s/o William Boswell)
John Charlotte boarder mar 42/22? Scarboro
Jane Smith boarder mar 23 London City
William Smith boarder mar 57 Gamston Notts (s/o Elijah Boswell?)
Keli Gray head mar 34 rag gatherer, South Carlton Lincs (s/o William and Tabitha Grey)
Eva wife mar 30 South Ferriby
Joseph son 10 Bardney s/o Cali and Eva Grey
Mary dau 8 Scarboro d/o Cali and Eva Grey
Isiah/Josiah son 4 Lincoln s/o Cali and Eva Grey
Keli son 9 months Lincoln s/o Cali and Eva Grey
Henry Smith boarder mar 30 gen lab, Stockwith (s/o Elijah Boswell)
Mary Ann boarder mar 31 Northampton
Thomas Smith head mar 41 gen lab Spilsby Lincs
Sophia wife mar 27 Caistor (d/o Moses Smith and Eldria Grey)
Joshua son 15 Barkwith
John son 2 Lincoln
Rabbi Smith head mar 24 gen lab Nettleham (s/o Moses Smith and Eldria Gray)
Delarina wife 26 Worksop Notts
Moses son 5 Lincoln
Walter son 11 months Lincoln
Moses f-in-law widower 56 rag gatherer Harby Leics (s/o Thomas and Silvia Smith)
Tom Smith head mar 44 rag gatherer Harby Leics (s/o Moses Smith and Eldria Gray)
Siberamily wife mar 40 Northampton
Isiah/Josiah son unm 22 North Scarle Lincs
Herbert son 18 Swinderby
Ambrus son 13 Brandon Leics
Isabella dau 7 Lincoln
Mary Ann dau 12 Northamton
John Boswell head mar 22 gen lab Newark
Maria wife mar 20 Nettleham
John son 3 months Lincoln
Francis Mobbs head widow 46 Boston (s/o James Gray and Bethania Smith)
Delerina Mobbs dau 12 York
Emily dau 10 Winteringham
Elisha son 14 Gainsboro
Cornelius son 21 Belton s/o Francis Gray aka Mobbs
Bethany dau 13 Sheffield
Avelin 17 Eastoft
Eliza Smith, boarder, 30, Mansfield Notts (poss d/o Elijah Boswell?)
Alice Smith, boarder, 60, Branston (poss Alice, m/o Jeremiah Boswell?)

I'd be interested to know how far you agree.

Ann65

24-07-2008, 09:07 PM

im fairly sure that this is the same:

James Mobbs died 1963 buried in Scroby Cemetery Scunthorpe
Sophia Mobbs died the same year, buried the same place.

babygirl101

24-07-2008, 09:07 PM

Excellent Joanne :)

Baby - Emma in 1861 is Emily who married Philista Smith, Im sure she is. Both b.cir 1845 Normanby.

Why can't they leave their names the same hehe!!! I'm sure you're right, but it's just a tad confusing for us isn't it |laugh1|

I'm done enough for this evening so I'm off to my padded cell to recover.

Thanks again for all your help

Baby |wave|

JoanneM

24-07-2008, 09:11 PM

im fairly sure that this is the same:

James Mobbs died 1963 buried in Scroby Cemetery Scunthorpe
Sophia Mobbs died the same year, buried the same place.

They would appear to be, wouldn't they? Do you know, myself and my OH are originally from Scunthorpe. A few of the Mobbs seem to have ended up there.

Ann65

24-07-2008, 09:13 PM

Could add a couple of ideas:

1881 – Dawsons Court, Lincoln
Philistia Smith, head, mar, 46, gen lab, Keadby Lincs
Emily wife mar 40 Toft Lincs (d/o Moses Smith and Eldria Gray)
Sarah A. dau 10 scholar Gainsborough (d/o Rabbi and Delerina Smith)
Bertha no relationship, 40, Willerton Notts (poss Bathia Boswell in 1861, m/o Adam Boswell/Smith?)
Lucy dau 5 Haxey Lincs
Aradine dau 8 Tickhill Yorks
Alice no relationship 40 Nottingham (poss d/o Elijah Boswell?)
Adam Smith head mar 31 gen lab Kingswood Lighton Yorks (poss s/o William and Bathia Boswell on 1861?)
Hannah wife mar 20, Gainsborough (d/o Jeremiah and Lunetta Boswell)
Jane dau 11 months Lincoln
Geattie son 4 Lincoln
Jeremiah Smith, f-in-law, widower, 40, gen lab, Bubworth Notts (s/o Elijah Boswell and Alice Smith)
Geattie, brother, unm, 27, Gunthorp Lincs (s/o William and Bathia Boswell)
Rylee brother unm, 27 Weller Common Notts (poss Elijah Boswell on 1861, s/o William and Bathia Boswell?)
Sherriff Render boarder mar 47 Everton Notts (Surrender Boswell/Smith)
Adeline Sheriff boarder mar 42 Langworth Derby (Adelaide, w/o Surrender Boswell/Smith, d/o Elijah Boswell)
William Smith boarder mar? 15, Seaton York (s/o William Boswell)
John Charlotte boarder mar 42/22? Scarboro
Jane Smith boarder mar 23 London City
William Smith boarder mar 57 Gamston Notts (s/o Elijah Boswell?)
Keli Gray head mar 34 rag gatherer, South Carlton Lincs (s/o William and Tabitha Grey)
Eva wife mar 30 South Ferriby
Joseph son 10 Bardney s/o Cali and Eva Grey
Mary dau 8 Scarboro d/o Cali and Eva Grey
Isiah/Josiah son 4 Lincoln s/o Cali and Eva Grey
Keli son 9 months Lincoln s/o Cali and Eva Grey
Henry Smith boarder mar 30 gen lab, Stockwith (s/o Elijah Boswell)
Mary Ann boarder mar 31 Northampton
Thomas Smith head mar 41 gen lab Spilsby Lincs (S/O ROBT & EVENING)
Sophia wife mar 27 Caistor (d/o Moses Smith and Eldria Grey)
Joshua son 15 Barkwith
John son 2 Lincoln
Rabbi Smith head mar 24 gen lab Nettleham (s/o Moses Smith and Eldria Gray)
Delarina wife 26 Worksop Notts
Moses son 5 Lincoln
Walter son 11 months Lincoln
Moses f-in-law widower 56 rag gatherer Harby Leics (s/o Thomas and Silvia Smith)
Tom Smith head mar 44 rag gatherer Harby Leics (s/o Moses Smith and Eldria Gray)
Siberamily wife mar 40 Northampton (POSS SIBBERANAH B.CIR 1838 ON 1841CR D/O RHODA SMITH, AT STOCKTON WKS)
Isiah/Josiah son unm 22 North Scarle Lincs
Herbert son 18 Swinderby
Ambrus son 13 Brandon Leics
Isabella dau 7 Lincoln
Mary Ann dau 12 Northamton
John Boswell head mar 22 gen lab Newark
Maria wife mar 20 Nettleham
John son 3 months Lincoln
Francis Mobbs head widow 46 Boston (s/o James Gray and Bethania Smith)
Delerina Mobbs dau 12 York
Emily dau 10 Winteringham
Elisha son 14 Gainsboro
Cornelius son 21 Belton s/o Francis Gray aka Mobbs
Bethany dau 13 Sheffield
Avelin 17 Eastoft
Eliza Smith, boarder, 30, Mansfield Notts (poss d/o Elijah Boswell?)
Alice Smith, boarder, 60, Branston (poss Alice, m/o Jeremiah Boswell?)

I'd be interested to know how far you agree.

Ann65

24-07-2008, 09:14 PM

bye bye baby :)

Joanne - I believe there are some Mobbs still in the Brigg area too.

JoanneM

24-07-2008, 09:20 PM

My oldest friend from the days when I lived in Scunthorpe had some Mobbs as next door neighbours, and I remember one who used to be a hawker outside the market there. I'm sure they're the same family.

Ann65

24-07-2008, 09:23 PM

Most likely. I know one of the Grays in Brigg, hes descended from William Gray and Tabitha Smith. He says he knows some Mobbs and quite a few others related to the Grays and Smiths families. Sometimes I rue the day my folkies settled down and moved South!

JoanneM

24-07-2008, 09:42 PM

Well, I think I'm going to call it a night now. It's been nice to speak to you again.

babygirl101

25-07-2008, 05:21 AM

I've tried, but I'm still a beginner on these families. My take on it is (and I reckon there's a few Boswells going by the name Smith in there):

1881 – Dawsons Court, Lincoln
Tom Smith head mar 44 rag gatherer Harby Leics (s/o Moses Smith and Eldria Gray)
Siberamily wife mar 40 Northampton

I'd be interested to know how far you agree.

I gave up last night - too shell shocked hehe. The only two I have any reliable information on are the 2 above. Tom (Thomas) was the son of Robert & Evening Smith, not Moses & Eldria.

SMITH, Thomas Robert & Evelin baptised 15 June 1834 Harby DE1772/4

On the 1861 there was a Thomas named as son of Moses, however, he was the one born in 1840. Robert's Thomas, was a few years older and he was the one who married Syberamily.

The 1881 census shows Thomas as Tom with his wife Siberamily living at 4 Dawson Court with their 5 children:

Ambrus Smith 13
Herbert Smith 18
Isabella Smith 7
Josiah Smith 22
Mary Ann Smith 12
Siberamily Smith 40
Tom Smith 44

1891 census:-

Thomas Smith
Age: 59
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sibey
Gender: Male
Where born: Leicestershire

Harriett Smith 17
Sibey Smith 52
Thomas Smith 59
Thomas Smith 14

Thomas was named as witness to his mothers death - Eve. His wife Siberamily was recorded as daughter-in-law and witness to Roberts death, although her name was given as Sybilla. This was in Caunton near Newark, Nottinghamshire. I think I may have found Siberamilys death recorded on Free BMD:-

Sept 1/4 1917

Smith Siberina 76 Lincoln 7a 457

so I'm going to order a copy of the certificate to see.

Off to work now, so I'll catch up with you all later

BG |wave|

Ann65

25-07-2008, 10:52 AM

Revised Edition!!

1881 – Dawsons Court, Lincoln
Philistia Smith, head, mar, 46, gen lab, Keadby Lincs
Emily wife mar 40 Toft Lincs (d/o Moses Smith and Eldria Gray)
Sarah A. dau 10 scholar Gainsborough (d/o Rabbi and Delerina Smith)
Bertha no relationship, 40, Willerton Notts (poss Bathia Boswell in 1861, m/o Adam Boswell/Smith?)
Lucy dau 5 Haxey Lincs
Aradine dau 8 Tickhill Yorks
Alice no relationship 40 Nottingham (poss d/o Elijah Boswell?)
Adam Smith head mar 31 gen lab Kingswood Lighton Yorks (poss s/o William and Bathia Boswell on 1861?)
Hannah wife mar 20, Gainsborough (d/o Jeremiah and Lunetta Boswell)
Jane dau 11 months Lincoln
Geattie son 4 Lincoln
Jeremiah Smith, f-in-law, widower, 40, gen lab, Bubworth Notts (s/o Elijah Boswell and Alice Smith)
Geattie, brother, unm, 27, Gunthorp Lincs (s/o William and Bathia Boswell)
Rylee brother unm, 27 Weller Common Notts (poss Elijah Boswell on 1861, s/o William and Bathia Boswell?)
Sherriff Render boarder mar 47 Everton Notts (Surrender Boswell/Smith)
Adeline Sheriff boarder mar 42 Langworth Derby (Adelaide, w/o Surrender Boswell/Smith, d/o Elijah Boswell)
William Smith boarder mar? 15, Seaton York (s/o William Boswell)
John Charlotte boarder mar 42/22? Scarboro
Jane Smith boarder mar 23 London City
William Smith boarder mar 57 Gamston Notts (s/o Elijah Boswell?)
Keli Gray head mar 34 rag gatherer, South Carlton Lincs (s/o William and Tabitha Grey)
Eva wife mar 30 South Ferriby
Joseph son 10 Bardney s/o Cali and Eva Grey
Mary dau 8 Scarboro d/o Cali and Eva Grey
Isiah/Josiah son 4 Lincoln s/o Cali and Eva Grey
Keli son 9 months Lincoln s/o Cali and Eva Grey
Henry Smith boarder mar 30 gen lab, Stockwith (s/o Elijah Boswell)
Mary Ann boarder mar 31 Northampton
Thomas Smith head mar 41 gen lab Spilsby Lincs (s/o Moses Smith and Eldria Gray)
Sophia wife mar 27 Caistor
Joshua son 15 Barkwith
John son 2 Lincoln
Rabbi Smith head mar 24 gen lab Nettleham (s/o Moses Smith and Eldria Gray)
Delarina wife 26 Worksop Notts
Moses son 5 Lincoln
Walter son 11 months Lincoln
Moses f-in-law widower 56 rag gatherer Harby Leics (s/o Thomas and Silvia Smith)
Tom Smith head mar 44 rag gatherer Harby Leics (s/o Robert and Evening Smith)
Siberamily wife mar 40 Northampton (Poss Sibberhanah b.cir 1838 on the 1841 CR at Stockon Wks, d/o Rhoda Smith)
Isiah/Josiah son unm 22 North Scarle Lincs
Herbert son 18 Swinderby
Ambrus son 13 Brandon Leics
Isabella dau 7 Lincoln
Mary Ann dau 12 Northamton
John Boswell head mar 22 gen lab Newark
Maria wife mar 20 Nettleham
John son 3 months Lincoln
Francis Mobbs head widow 46 Boston (s/o James Gray and Bethania Smith)
Delerina Mobbs dau 12 York
Emily dau 10 Winteringham
Elisha son 14 Gainsboro
Cornelius son 21 Belton s/o Francis Gray aka Mobbs
Bethany dau 13 Sheffield
Avelin 17 Eastoft
Eliza Smith, boarder, 30, Mansfield Notts (poss d/o Elijah Boswell?)
Alice Smith, boarder, 60, Branston (poss Alice, m/o Jeremiah Boswell?)

Ann65

25-07-2008, 11:12 AM

Sophia Smith daughter of Moses Smith and Elderi Gray married Joseph Gray b.cir 1844 Thorpe Yks and is on the 1901 census with him and Thomas and Charlotte Smith, This Tom being the brother of Moses Smith, at Eagle Lin.

Thomas Smith s/o Moses and Elderi married a Sophia b.cir 1850 Caistor Dist.

In 1891 CR they are at Gainsborough – 4 Sailors Alley
Thomas Smith 53 b.cir 1838 Saxilby Gen Lab
Sophia Smith 40 b.cir 1850 Caistor
John Smith 12 b.cir 1879 Lincoln
Moses Smith Father 70 b.cir 1821 Hareby Gen Lab

They are still in Gainsborough in 1901- 7 Winns Yard
Thomas Smith 61 Saxilby Gen Lab
Sophia Smith 50 Caistor
John Smith 22 Lincoln Gen Lab

Next door to them at no 9 is:
Edingal Gray widow b.cir 1838 Willow Rod-Sorter Boston
David Gray son b.cir 1870 Navvy Market Rasen
Ellen T Smith gdtr b.cir 1887 Lincoln

Ann65

25-07-2008, 11:23 AM

Ok onto nailing down Alice Smith.

We know she was suposed to be one of at least three daughters of William Smith and Jemima Gray the others being Delizanna and Charlotte, and we know she was suposed to have had a liason with Elijah Boswell along with the other sisters, and that his main 'liason/marriage' was with Harriet Wood(Ward).

A William Smith and Jemima Gray were married in 1802 at Yelling, Hunts.

Delizanna Smith married Elijah Boswell in 1822 at Newton Notts.

Harriet Woodward married Elijah Boswell in 1820 at Walesby Nott.

Given the date of marriage of the presumed parents, these threes births are narrowed down to approx between 1802 and 1810. Regardless of any ages Alice might have either given herself or been guesstimated by the census enumerator.

Now all we have to do, is find them.....

babygirl101

25-07-2008, 12:51 PM

Revised Edition!!

1881 – Dawsons Court, Lincoln
Tom Smith head mar 44 rag gatherer Harby Leics (s/o Robert and Evening Smith)
Siberamily wife mar 40 Northampton (Poss Sibberhanah b.cir 1838 on the 1841 CR at Stockon Wks, d/o Rhoda Smith)
)

Ann

You have been a busy bunny this morning. I'm on my lunchbreak but couldn't resist a quick peak to view progress. Hmmmm, that's an interesting one for Siberamily - I hadn't even started to investigate her background, but I've definitely read something somewhere about a Rhoda and that she was married to a Robert Smith - oh how the plot thickens!!!! I seem to recall there being mention of this Robert being the son of Wisdom Smith (1760 something), but this theory has possibly been discounted - I'll check out my source when I get home, but very well done for this.

BG |wave|

JoanneM

25-07-2008, 04:24 PM

Just out of interest, this is the census entry that made me realise that Surrenders wife Adelaide was a Boswell (Surrender is in Surrey, aged 26 and a traveller, lodging with a family there). It's also provides the only Sherriff link that I've found so far.

1871 - Bentley with Arksey, Yorkshire (in open fields)
Henry Smith head mar 27 chair mender Yorkshire Sheffield
Jane Smith wife mar 35 (no place listed)
Moses Fielding head unm 42 besom maker Lincolnshire Ferry (William Boswell in 1861)
Maria Smith (no relation listed) unm 34 Northamptonshire/Nottinghamshire(?)
Addam Fielding son unm 21 Yorkshire Laughton
Gehaze Fielding son 18 Lincolnshire Gunthorpe
Adeline Fielding dau 14 Nottinghamshire Tuxford
Riley Fielding son 12 Nottinghamshire Wellow (was Riley Elijah on 1861?)
William Fielding son 5 Yorkshire Seaton
Elias Fielding son 2 Lincolnshire Gunthorpe
Bob Hardy (no relation or condition listed) 52 ratcatcher Nottinghamshire Anston
George Sherriff (no relation or condition listed) 39 grinder Cheshire Macclesfield(?)
Addelade Boswell (no relation or condition listed) 38 Derbyshire Langwith

Moses Fielding is actually William Boswell, as identified by his children in the 1861 census entry:

1861 - Notts Carlton in Lindrick - in tents
William Boswell head marr 37 besom maker notts gainsboro
Bathia Boswell wife 26 notts eskring
Adam son 11 yorks langton (poss Adam Smith in later census)
Elijah son 2 lincoln haxey
Gehaze son 7 lincs ferry
Adley dau 5 notts tuxford
Jeremiah Boswell head marr 26 besom maker born notts elkesley (s/o Elijah Boswell and Alice Smith)
Lunetta wife 30 lincolnshire
Hannah dau 1 gainsboro

I also have some newspaper articles when Surrender has been charged with various offences as Sorrender Boswell in 1850 and as Render Sherriff in 1863, 1867 and 1875.

Additionally I've got a newspaper report stating that 'the order taken out by the Gainsborough Union for the removal of Magnus and Philistia Smith to that union had been abandoned'. I have wondered if Magnus Smith could be Magnus Boswell, son of Elijah Boswell and Alice Smith?

Ann65

25-07-2008, 04:53 PM

Got to attend to other stuff at the moment, unfort but just a quickie. Eric Trugehill wrote an article in the last quarterly RTFHS about Wisdom Smith - and he worked out that Robert and Rhoda (previously attributed to Wisdom), is in fact belonging to another family. Ill look out the details later.

Robert was born cir 1808 Gretton, and Rhoda b.cir 1807

Children included:

Thomas c.1829 Benefield Nthants married Harriet b.cir 1831 Melton Leic
Joanett c.1831 Bulwick Nthants
Joseph c.1834 Nassington married Eleanor b.cir 1845 Melton
Vashti c.1839 Corby Nthants
Robert c.1841 Wittering Nthants married Ann b.cir 1846 Kingscliffe
Cinderella c.1843 Nassington
Aaron c.1846 Nassington
Enoch c.1849 Nassington
Matilda c.1851 Deene Nthants.

Ann65

25-07-2008, 04:55 PM

PS should add that it was down to Erics hard work, in eliminating Robert and Rhoda, that I realised that Robert and Evening Smith were the right couple.

babygirl101

25-07-2008, 05:06 PM

PS should add that it was down to Erics hard work, in eliminating Robert and Rhoda, that I realised that Robert and Evening Smith were the right couple.

That's the conclusion I've come to, too Ann and you're quite right I knew I read about Robert & Rhoda somewhere - well done eagle eyes, i was just about to look it up, so you've saved me the trouble.

I'm home now so I'll carry on with the search

BG

babygirl101

25-07-2008, 05:11 PM

PS should add that it was down to Erics hard work, in eliminating Robert and Rhoda, that I realised that Robert and Evening Smith were the right couple.

My only concern about my Robert & Evening is that although the dates looks right Robert was born in Whitwick which is north Leicestershire which seems a bit out of the way in comparison to the rest of the family - any thoguhts on that offering??

BG

Ann65

25-07-2008, 06:31 PM

Moses Fielding is actually William Boswell, as identified by his children in the 1861 census entry:

Additionally I've got a newspaper report stating that 'the order taken out by the Gainsborough Union for the removal of Magnus and Philistia Smith to that union had been abandoned'. I have wondered if Magnus Smith could be Magnus Boswell, son of Elijah Boswell and Alice Smith?

If the age or place of birth is anywhere near accurate I would think it most certainly is, especially since other children of Alice seem to adopt the Smith Surname.

The most unusual name changes Ive come across are:

Elias Gray who was son of James and Bethania, who has been seen on census as
both William Gray and Walter Hearn.

A Francis Brown aka Henry Stapleton

and this one took some working out!:

List of persons not in houses, Mkt Weighton, Nfk

? Golass husb 1826 Spalding <...... Khulai Heron
Relio Golass wife 1815 Acomb Yks <.....Dorelia Boswell
Edward Golass 1857
John Golass 1851
Nelson Golass 1854
Sarah Golass 1855
William Golass 1849

John Gray 30 Gipsy Not Known "Johnny" s/o John Budd Gray and Maria Boswell
Vasty Gray 25 Wife Gipsy Norwich "Wasti" nee Lee d/o Zachariah.
Delila Gray 1 Gipsy Selby Yks
Prudence Young 29 wife Gipsy Borough Bridge NYks

Byron Raney 1821 <..... aka Byron Young
Jane Raney 1826 Lincs
Byron Raney1851
Delila Raney 1859
Formiga Raney 1856
Louisa Raney 1855
Oliver Raney 1852
Vasty Raney 1846

Ann65

25-07-2008, 06:34 PM

My only concern about my Robert & Evening is that although the dates looks right Robert was born in Whitwick which is north Leicestershire which seems a bit out of the way in comparison to the rest of the family - any thoguhts on that offering??

BG

They all travelled far and wide through the year in their various trades. Whitwick Ive seen before as a rom stopping place, along with other places such as Harby. I wouldnt read too much into it to be honest.

babygirl101

25-07-2008, 06:49 PM

They all travelled far and wide through the year in their various trades. Whitwick Ive seen before as a rom stopping place, along with other places such as Harby. I wouldnt read too much into it to be honest.

I'm trying not to, but it would nice to be able to verify it somehow, as it would confirm that Wisdom Smith (1763) was my great, great, great, great grandfather. It's the only piece of the jigsaw that's missing everything seems to check out. Still I'm sure I'll get there one day. Anyway I'll get back to going through the information you've been busy working on today.

BG :D

Ann65

26-07-2008, 09:02 AM

Jeremiah Boswell head marr 26 besom maker born notts elkesley (s/o Elijah Boswell and Alice Smith)
Lunetta wife 30 lincolnshire
Hannah dau 1 gainsboro

possibly a long stretch here but I havent been able to find anything on Lunetta so I wondered if

Thomas c.1829 Benefield Nthants married Harriet b.cir 1831 Melton Leic
Joanett c.1831 Bulwick Nthants

she was the daughter of Thomas and Harriet, Thomas being the son of Robert and Rhoda Smith????

Ann65

26-07-2008, 09:23 AM

Oh I should add, Jeremiah Boswell/Smith is a widow in 1881, (theres a scribble that looks like hes a widow in 1871), and then appears to marry one Charlotte Rouse before appearing in 1891 and 1901.

17 Dawsons Ct St Nicholas Lincs 1891
Jeremiah Smith 60 Retford Notts Drover
Charlotte Smith 34 Lincoln Lincs

12 Bilton St St Nicholas Lincs 1901
Jeremiah Smith 65 Tetford Nott
Charlotte Smith 52 Lincoln

He marries Charlotte Rouse Dec Qtr 1881 in the Lincoln District (GRO Index)
He appears to die Sept Qtr 1907 in the Lincoln District (GRO Index)

Ann65

26-07-2008, 09:41 AM

Going on the possibility that Alice Smiths children, whilst Baptised as Boswells generally used her Smith surname, I turned up a few odds and ends apart from Jeremiah.

Okey Boswell was married as Okey Smith in 1859 East Retford Dist (GRO) to Meranul Booth.
This is definately him as Ochee Boswell and Maraneel had Mazaneel baptised at Scotter in 1854.

Even more interestingly, there on the GRO Index with Okey Smith and Meranul Booth, most likely a joint wedding, was:

Magnus Smith marrying Mary Ann Smith.

He seems elusive whether using the Smith name or the Boswell name, but I did find this:

Magnus Smith d.1870 Gainsborough Dist (aged 40)

Ann65

26-07-2008, 01:02 PM

Hmm heres another one for ya.....

Surrender Herring s/o Abraham & Nancy c.11.05.1828 Hibaldstow Lin
LIONETTA Herring d/o Abraham & Nancy c.08.12.1833 Elvington Yk
Deliah Herring d/o Abraham & Nancy c.03.12.1837 Husthwaithe with Carlton, Yk

babygirl101

26-07-2008, 03:05 PM

Revised Edition!!

1881 – Dawsons Court, Lincoln
Philistia Smith, head, mar, 46, gen lab, Keadby Lincs
Emily wife mar 40 Toft Lincs (d/o Moses Smith and Eldria Gray)
Sarah A. dau 10 scholar Gainsborough (d/o Rabbi and Delerina Smith)

Hi Ann

Phew, that's taken some working through, virtually everything you've done matches up with my information what a relief!

The only exception being Sarah A - I have her as :-

Sarah A. Smith
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Philistia
Mother's Name: Emily
Gender: Female
Where born: Gainsboro, Lincoln, England
9 Dawsons CT

Any suggestions??|help|

BG

babygirl101

26-07-2008, 03:12 PM

Ann65

26-07-2008, 03:29 PM

IGI

Ann65

26-07-2008, 03:32 PM

Hi Ann

Phew, that's taken some working through, virtually everything you've done matches up with my information what a relief!

The only exception being Sarah A - I have her as :-

Sarah A. Smith
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Philistia
Mother's Name: Emily
Gender: Female
Where born: Gainsboro, Lincoln, England
9 Dawsons CT

Any suggestions??|help|

BG

She appears as d/o Rabbi and Delerena on other census returns. Joannes directly descended from her.

Ann65

26-07-2008, 03:41 PM

Found a ref on the IGI for Alice Smith marrying Elijah Boswell.

1829 at Sutton Cum Lound, Notts.

No other info. Grrrr. Anyone with access to Sutton Cum Lound PRs?

JoanneM

26-07-2008, 05:17 PM

I've been out all day and just checked in - there's some information to go through now.

The only exception being Sarah A - I have her as :-

Sarah A. Smith
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Philistia
Mother's Name: Emily
Gender: Female
Where born: Gainsboro, Lincoln, England
9 Dawsons CT

Any suggestions??|help|

BG

She's the daughter of Delerina, born in Gainsborough workhouse. There's no father named, but she gives Rabbi, who Delerina subsequently married, as her father when she married. I don't know why she is Philistia and Emilys daughter in 1881.

Right, off to have a read through this thread now.

Ann65

26-07-2008, 06:08 PM

Ok, good news and bad. Ive cast a few queries about hoping to find someone with the info on the marriages I posted up.

Seems the IGI references of Alice Smith and Delizanna Smith are dubious as they have no batch numbers associated for them, and it seems no one can find these references at least at this moment in time. However the marriage of Harriet Woodward is verified.

Furthermore, it seems the marriage of William Smith and Jemima Gray is also verified:

1/11/1802 Yelling, Hunts.
Smith William otp Gypsy. & Gray Jemima (x) otp Gypsy.Wit. Charles Macklane (x) & John Ashcroft.

Both people called gypsies having pitched their tent in this parish during the time their banns were published.

babygirl101

26-07-2008, 07:09 PM

I've been out all day and just checked in - there's some information to go through now.

She's the daughter of Delerina, born in Gainsborough workhouse. There's no father named, but she gives Rabbi, who Delerina subsequently married, as her father when she married. I don't know why she is Philistia and Emilys daughter in 1881.

Right, off to have a read through this thread now.

Well that's solved another mystery. Once again, thank you for all your help Ann

BG

babygirl101

26-07-2008, 07:13 PM

Well that's solved another mystery. Once again, thank you for all your help Ann
BG

and Joanne - ooops sorry, I've just realized there were 2 posts on this one

BG

Ann65

26-07-2008, 07:16 PM

Cant Help but wonder if this Jemima Gray (who married William Smith) is

Jemima Gray d/o George & Martha c.07.10.1770 Gt Shelford Cam. If she is, then she also had a daughter called Jemima Gray c.27.06.1790 Teversham Cam, who was known as Revine Gray.

Ann65

26-07-2008, 08:19 PM

& JUST when you all hoped Id finally shut up :D Ive got a bee in my bonnet!

Now Thomas Smith brother of Moses Smith settled in Eagle Lin with his wife Charlotte.

Now In the 1901 CR with them are one Joseph Gray b.cir 1844 Thorpe Yks and his wife Sophia b.cir 1843 Harby Leic. - and they are described as Neph & Niece.

She is almost certainly the niece - the Sophia Gray b.cir 1841 Harby Leic d/o Moses and Elderi.

and its gone up my nose that I have no idea who this Joseph Gray is b.cir 1844 Thorpe Yk.

Now on another census they turn up again and Joseph Gray b.cir 1842 Rotherham Yks is with wife Sophia b.cir 1839 Harby Leic. So far so good.

But then in 1871 suddenly up pops a Uriah Gray b.cir 1845 Atterby Yk with wife Sophia b.cir 1835 Lincoln, visiting with Sidney Gray and Edingirl Smith, Sidney being son of William Gray and Tabitha.

This alerted me to this:

In the 1861 census, Sidney is listed as wid (of Violet presumably) and is with his children Hurton b.cir 1845 Thorpe Yks, and Margaret b.cir 1849 Burton Lin.

Now Hurton appears nowhere else, but his place of birth and Josephs tally perfectly. So did Hurton Gray become Joseph Gray, and did he briefly become Uriah Gray in the middle????

babygirl101

26-07-2008, 08:27 PM

JoanneM

26-07-2008, 11:28 PM

But then in 1871 suddenly up pops a Uriah Gray b.cir 1845 Atterby Yk with wife Sophia b.cir 1835 Lincoln, visiting with Sidney Gray and Edingirl Smith, Sidney being son of William Gray and Tabitha.
Hmm, I'm very tired right now, so this may not be relevant, or even make sense. In 1871 Uriah Gray is aged 25 and in Market Rasen.

In 1891 there is a Uriah Smith, aged 45 and with a birthplace of Market Rasen and living in Dawsons Court, married to Eveline and living alongside a couple of sons of Thomas and Siberamily.

In 1891 Uriah is aged 55, still born Market Rasen, and Eveline has become an Evening. They are listed with Josiah Smith, son of Thomas and Siberamily. I can't, at the minute, find this Uriah Smith before 1891.

It does get addictive, doesn't it? These are my husbands family, and much as I love my own, they did make it very easy for me to research, staying in the same village for generations. I'm finding that the more of a challenge it is, the more fun it is, and the rewards are so much greater.

babygirl101

27-07-2008, 07:04 AM

Hmm, I'm very tired right now, so this may not be relevant, or even make sense. In 1871 Uriah Gray is aged 25 and in Market Rasen.

In 1891 there is a Uriah Smith, aged 45 and with a birthplace of Market Rasen and living in Dawsons Court, married to Eveline and living alongside a couple of sons of Thomas and Siberamily.

In 1891 Uriah is aged 55, still born Market Rasen, and Eveline has become an Evening. They are listed with Josiah Smith, son of Thomas and Siberamily. I can't, at the minute, find this Uriah Smith before 1891.

It does get addictive, doesn't it? These are my husbands family, and much as I love my own, they did make it very easy for me to research, staying in the same village for generations. I'm finding that the more of a challenge it is, the more fun it is, and the rewards are so much greater.

Joanne - don't do that!!! you frightened the life out of me for a minute. I thought I'd got all my history totally wrong hehe!!!! mentioning Evening who I thought was well and truly dead, linking Uriah to Thomas & Siberamily!!! eeek, naughty girl.

I actually printed out all the inhabitants of Dawsons Court but hadn't had a chance to go through them, although I'd noticed Uriah it didn't really register.

Anyway shock over:-

Harriett Smith 17
Sibey Smith 52
Thomas Smith 59
Thomas Smith 14

are all living together as I expected, the only change is that Harriett b. 1874 has changed her name from Isabella as she was recorded on 1881 Census:-

Ambrus Smith 13
Herbert Smith 18
Isabella Smith 7
Josiah Smith 22
Mary Ann Smith 12
Siberamily Smith 40
Tom Smith 44

Ambrus, Herbert & Josiah have flown the nest by 1891.

Ambrus, has become Ambrose and is living close by with his family:-

Ambrose Smith 32
Ann Smith 22
Emily Smith 3

Josiah has now married and still living close by, but has become Isiah:-

Isiah Smith 32
Isiah Smith 4
John W Smith 1
Sarah Smith 23

So far like you I haven't found a Uriah.

I have also lost Herbert - ooops, very careless. There's one possibility but it doesn't really look very likely:-

Emma E Smith 27
Herbert Smith 29

The interesting one for me is his wife Eveline, Evening. Thomas (1834) husband of Siberamily's mother was Evening, Eveline and finally Eve, but she died 1872. Until now I hadn't come across that name anywhere else. I feel sure there must be a connection.

I'm off to search more for both Uriah & Evening.

BG

JoanneM

27-07-2008, 07:15 AM

Joanne - don't do that!!! you frightened the life out of me for a minute. I thought I'd got all my history totally wrong hehe!!!! mentioning Evening who I thought was well and truly dead, linking Uriah to Thomas & Siberamily!!! eeek, naughty girl.

Sorry, lol. I thought that there must be a connection with the name Evening. Also thought that the combination of the name Uriah, his age (although he'd probably be the first to be consistent with his age through the census) and the instance of Market Rasen was interesting, although Uriah Gray and Uriah Smith may well be two different people.

babygirl101

27-07-2008, 07:58 AM

Sorry, lol. I thought that there must be a connection with the name Evening. Also thought that the combination of the name Uriah, his age (although he'd probably be the first to be consistent with his age through the census) and the instance of Market Rasen was interesting, although Uriah Gray and Uriah Smith may well be two different people.

I'll forgive you lol!!!!

Try this one for size. Keli Gray was on 1881 census living at Dawsons Court:-

Eva Gray 30
Iisiah Gray 4
Joseph Gray 10
Keli Gray 34
Keli Gray
Mary Gray 8
Henry Smith 30
Mary Ann Smith 31

I can't find them anywhere else after that, as yet! Then suddenly Uriah & co turn up in the same location.

Wife Eva becomes Eveline/Evening (a family name??) right age; daughter Mary Gray aged 8 becomes Maria Smith aged 17 ...

bit of a coincidence, cuold be nothing but ....

here we go again with if's and buts lol

BG

babygirl101

27-07-2008, 09:53 AM

& JUST when you all hoped Id finally shut up :D Ive got a bee in my bonnet!

Now Thomas Smith brother of Moses Smith settled in Eagle Lin with his wife Charlotte.

Now In the 1901 CR with them are one Joseph Gray b.cir 1844 Thorpe Yks and his wife Sophia b.cir 1843 Harby Leic. - and they are described as Neph & Niece.

She is almost certainly the niece - the Sophia Gray b.cir 1841 Harby Leic d/o Moses and Elderi.

and its got up my nose that I have no idea who this Joseph Gray is b.cir 1844 Thorpe Yk.

Now on another census they turn up again and Joseph Gray b.cir 1842 Rotherham Yks is with wife Sophia b.cir 1839 Harby Leic. So far so good.

But then in 1871 suddenly up pops a Uriah Gray b.cir 1845 Atterby Yk with wife Sophia b.cir 1835 Lincoln, visiting with Sidney Gray and Edingirl Smith, Sidney being son of William Gray and Tabitha.

This is becoming tiresome lol, why can't they just stick to the same names, they clearly had no consideration for us future generations trying to track them down had they??????|banghead|

I haven't got any record of Sophia marrying, so possibly she married this Joseph Gray, in which he would be a nephew-in-law. It still doesn't explain who he was though, but it would explain what happened to Sophia, b 1841.

Also you refer to Sophia Gray, whereas I have her as Sophia Smith (1861 Census gives her the surname Smith).

Sophia Smith
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Moses
Mother's Name: Eldred
Gender: Female
Where born: Harby, Leicestershire, England

See my earlier post for Uriah. I'll keep on searching.

BG |5cups|

babygirl101

27-07-2008, 12:35 PM

& JUST when you all hoped Id finally shut up :D Ive got a bee in my bonnet!

Now Thomas Smith brother of Moses Smith settled in Eagle Lin with his wife Charlotte.

Re Thomas & Moses, I know that were brothers, but I've come up with another Smith on IGI who was also born in Teigh, Rutland the year before Thomas, the only problem being that he has different parents, I wonder if he was a cousin or something:-

LEVI SMITH
Christening: 17 JUN 1810 Teigh, Rutland, England
Mother: SOPHIA SMITH

He appears on the 1861 census with his wife Safa (b. c1813) and their family.

My connection to them is with their son Arthur, who it appears later becomes Hawthorn. Hawthorn (b. c1843) was born in Buckminster, Leicestershire. He went on to marry Lydia Smith (aka Ingleton) from Skillington. Lydia being the daughter of Eliza Smith who was married to Robert Smith, son of Robert & Evening Smith.

Hawthorns marriage certificate records Levi as his father and Robert as Lydias father.

Confused, you will be!!! Any help on this one gratefully received.

BG

Ann65

27-07-2008, 01:42 PM

Kelli and Eve/Eva do turn up on other census's - its just the enumerator couldnt spell his name. Try doing a search for eve eva Gray of Sth Ferriby. Youll find them then.

babygirl101

27-07-2008, 02:32 PM

Kelli and Eve/Eva do turn up on other census's - its just the enumerator couldnt spell his name. Try doing a search for eve eva Gray of Sth Ferriby. Youll find them then.

Well there's a surprise, I've seen it spelt in several different ways lol. So, that's me shot down in flames lol hehe!!!! I'll give that one a go later, but it doesn't solve our mystery man, I'll keep looking

BG

babygirl101

27-07-2008, 04:17 PM

Kelli and Eve/Eva do turn up on other census's - its just the enumerator couldnt spell his name. Try doing a search for eve eva Gray of Sth Ferriby. Youll find them then.

As always Ann, you were quite right, I've found them all, but the spelling leaves a lot to be desired, doesn't it lol. Onwards with the search.

BG

JoanneM

27-07-2008, 07:31 PM

I've spent some time today looking at the children of Elijah Boswell and his various wives.

Ann, earlier on in this thread you gave me his children as:

Isaiah or Elisha c.1823 Welbourn Lin s/o Elijah and Harriet
Herilah/Riley c.1827 Bole Notts s/o Elijah and Harriet
William c.1827 Gamston Nott s/o Elijah and Charlotte
Erydina (Smith or Boswell) c.1830 Upper Langwith Dby d/o Elijah and Charlotte
Adam c.1830 Walesby s/o Elijah and Charlotte
Okey c.1830 Sutton Cum Lound, Notts s/o Elijah and Alice
Sidney c.1831 Walesby
Annice c.1832 East Markham Nott d/o Elijah and Charlotte
Jeremiah c.1832 Babworth Notts s/o Elijah and Alice
Magnus c.1834 Longford Dby s/o Elijah and Alice
Rudolphus c.1836 Babworth Nott s/o Elijah and Alice
Joseph c.1837 Clarborough Nott s/o Elijah and Charlotte
Lucy c.1846 Scotter Lincs. d/o Elijah and Charlotte
Walter c.1851 Kneesall Nott s/o Elijah and Alice

I've found a newspaper article from 1853 which lists (it says from Elijahs own archives) his children by his three wives. They are listed as:

1. Eliza, born among the ling in Mansfield forest
2. Henrietta, born in Thieves'-dale-lane, near Osberton
3. Alfred, born in Treswell Back-lane
4. Walter, born on Kneesall-green
5. Adelaide, born in a lane between Langwith and Pleasley
6. Henry, born in a lane near West Stockwith
7. Lucy, born under Firbeck-park-side
8. Adam, born on Walesby Breck
9. William, born in Gamston-wood
10. James, born in Layard's Leap, between Newark and Sleaford
11. Elijah, born near Sturton High-house
12. Magnus, born in a lane, near Langford
13. Riley, born near Bole guide-post
14. Alice, born in a lane, near Mattersey Gorse.

Now whilst there's 14 children in each there's an obvious difference in that the first list has 11 boys and 3 girls, and the second has 9 boys and 5 girls.

The ones that agree are Walter, Adam, William, Magnus, Riley, Erydina/Adelaide and Lucy.

Eliza, born among the ling in Mansfield forest, is, I think, the Eliza Smith on the 1881 census at Dawsons Court who goes on to marry Francis Gray/Mobbs.
Henrietta, born in Thieves'-dale-lane, near Osberton. No idea who she is, but on an OS map there is an East Thievesdale Wood close to Osberton, near Worksop.
Alfred, born Treswell Back-lane. Could he be Sidney? Sidney married Eleanor/Ellen Charlotte who had a liaison with Dennis Smith, father of Sylvestia Smith. On Sylvestias marriage cert one of the witnesses was an Alfred Boswell. And Treswell's not far from Retford which Sidney gives as his birthplace.
Henry, born in a lane near West Stockwith. This is the Henry who shows up as 'brother' on the 1861 census with Surrender and Adelaide and is also in Dawsons Court in 1881.
James, born in Layard's Leap, between Newark and Sleaford. Again, no idea who he is, but I think his birthplace should be Bayards Leap which is just outside Cranwell in Lincolnshire, and on the road between Newark and Sleaford.
Elijah, born near Sturton High-house. I think he may be Joseph on the former list, as, looking on an OS map, I've found Sturton High House very close by Clarborough in Nottinghamshire.
Alice, born in a lane, near Mattersey Gorse. Is she Annice on the first list?

On the first list there is Isiah/Elisha, Okey, Jeremiah and Rudolphus that I can't match up to anyone on the second list (although I suppose Isiah/Elisha could be Elijah although the birthplace doesn't match)

I'm confused now (easily done, I know, lol).

Ann65

28-07-2008, 12:09 PM

Hmmm..... well originally the general names of children came from the book, The Lee Family Tree Vol2, which I purchased many years ago now when it was all much harder to research - I did since check on the IGI for baptisms and found most of them I think. I have since lost them in a hard drive failure but I can spend some time going through the IGI and rechecking data easily enough.

Happy birthday to me by the way, 43 today.

Ann

JoanneM

28-07-2008, 12:42 PM

Happy birthday to me by the way, 43 today.

Happy Birthday Ann.

I can find IGI refs for all the ones you gave me, except Lucy, but I don't think the Scotter/Scotton parish regs are on the IGI.

It doesn't help that the newspaper article I found doesn't mentions dates, just names and birthplaces, but there does seem to be some extra children in there, or some going by alternate names. Going off to have another play with the IGI myself now.

Ann65

28-07-2008, 12:58 PM

Ok Ive been through it all and found the following (which I would call verified references) on the IGI.

Elijah Boswell & Harriet
Adam c.26.12.1820 Walesby Nott
Herilah c.04.03.1827 Bole Nott

Elisha Boswell & Harriet
Isaiah c.12.04.1823 Welbourn Lin

Elijah Boswell & Charlotte
William c.15.08.1827 Gamston By E.Retford Nott
Annis c.24.12.1832 East Markham Nott
Lucy c.13.05.1846 Scotter Lin

Elijah Boswell & Charlotte Smith
Erydina c.05.12.1830 Upper Langwith Dby
Joseph c.25.12.1837 Clarborough Nott

Elijah Boswell & Alice
Magnus c.15.04.1834 Longford Dby

Elijah Boswell & Ellice
Okey Boswell c.03.01.1830 Sutton Cum Lound Nott

Alice Boswell
Jeremiah c.28.01.1832 Babworth Nott
Rudolphus c.04.12.1836 Babworth Nott
Walter c.19.05.1851 Kneesall Nott

There are a couple missing so I must have either picked those refs up from the book or picked them up from one of the other Lincs area/Boswell researchers - or possibly disappeared up my own backside and made them up ;)

Had a search for Eliza, Henrietta, Alfred, Adelaide, Henry, James and Elijah. No joy under the Boswell name. I shall be back....

Ann65

28-07-2008, 01:03 PM

'James, born in Layard's Leap, between Newark and Sleaford. Again, no idea who he is, but I think his birthplace should be Bayards Leap which is just outside Cranwell in Lincolnshire, and on the road between Newark and Sleaford.'

Yes its Bayards Leap. Ive been there. Bayard was a blind horse who leapt something like 50 yards (so the story goes) to kill an old witch. There are 4 horseshoes marking the spot where he is supposed to have landed.

JoanneM

28-07-2008, 01:15 PM

babygirl101

28-07-2008, 03:21 PM

Happy birthday to me by the way, 43 today.

Ann

Happy birthday to you for today, I'm 21 again on Wednesday

|birthday|

babygirl101

28-07-2008, 03:28 PM

Ann65

28-07-2008, 04:53 PM

I think Adelaide is Erydina. If I'm right that she's Surrenders wife then in 1861 she's aged 30 born Notts, 1871 she's aged 38 born Langwith, Derbyshire and in 1881 aged 42 born Langworth, Derbyshire.

I think you are probably right, and given the number of name changes we have already come across in this thread alone, and the Roms desire to keep their lives secret from the Gorja, I wouldnt be suprised if most of the listed names turn out to be someone else in the end. Its going to be fun trying to work it all out though. I wish I had the £££ to buy other genealogists books - I know Bob Dawson has written one on the Boswell family.

Happy Birthday for Wednesday Babygirl :)

Ann65

28-07-2008, 05:29 PM

Treat the following with caution - I have on record in my notes an unverified note regarding Elijah Boswell.

As to him being the son of Layshi and Sayni (IE Leshi Heron and Seni Boss)
c.1798 Newton In The Willows, Nthants. now this ref if I recall comes from the IGI same as the ref to Delizanna Smith marrying Elijah there in 1823. There are no batch numbers which makes these references highly suspect. I may be wrong in my recollection of where this came from, it may have been a note contributed to the Routes Journal.

I am do not know the Boswell family well enough to know if Elijah was reputedly a son of theirs.

What I do know is the records I have seen (The George Hall Pedigrees in the JGLS) do not actually support this theory, claiming that the family tree is as follows:

(From the Boss Pedigree)

Edmund Boss and Eldorai Boswell had:

Margaret (aka Peggy) married Reynolds Heron (father of Sanspirella, wife of Ambrose Smith, the 'Jasper Petulengro' of George Borrows books).

Seni who married Leshi Heron

William

Peter who married Winifred

Sibella (Boss or Smith)

Eliza who married Anselo Boss (AKA Joseph) her cousin.

Anselo being son of John Boss who also had:

Ambrose who married Penny Boss

Tom

John

Molly

Vaino (Salavaino/Salavena or Viney Boswell) married Comfort Wood(all)

Mary

and Licia

Ok having got that far, I could add that:

Leshi and Seni were suposed to have had:

James Heron aka Vanis aka Riley Boss who famously had three wives, Charlotte Hammond who ran off with Zacky Lee, Lucy Boswell (Tysos daughter) and Susan or Shurensi (Shorensy) known as Yoki Shuri (Lucky Shuri).

Sarah who married Lusha Heron

Penny who married Ambrose Boss

Clara who married Cornelius 'Nelus' Smith.

babygirl101

28-07-2008, 06:11 PM

Here's another mystery for today if anyone can help me unravel it ...

I have a Robert Smith b. 1830 (son of Robert & Evening) who was married to Eliza Ingleton, well at least that's what I thought as did several other people.

Robert & Eliza had at least 2 children - Lydia/Lida and Robert. Lydia born in Skillington married Hawthorn Smith as indicated on her marriage certificate which gave her name as Lydia Ingleton Smith. Eliza was also born in Skillington so I'm sure Lydia was her daughter, so I thought I'd check out her brother Robert b. 1858 Melton Mowbray just to be sure.

Today I have received his birth certificate and sure enough he was Roberts son and was born in Melton in 1858 as expected, so far so good but ...

Robert jnr's mother is listed as Eliza, as expected, but her name was Eliza Smith formerly Cox eeek! not what I expected at all.

I've checked to see if I could find a marriage for Eliza Ingleton to see if I'd got it completely wrong and up pops an Eliza Ingleton, married 1849, Grantham, which would be fine for Skillington area, but married to a Robert Cox!!!!.

Does anyone have the faintest idea how that could be right? Had she been married before to a Robert Cox, then to Robert Smith or were they one and the same?? I really can't get my head around this one

Any help gratefully received.

BG

Ann65

28-07-2008, 08:30 PM

knowing the rom id go with Robert Cox = Robert Smith for now.....

Ann65

28-07-2008, 08:54 PM

Establishing a Boswell Time-Frame

Margaret or Peggy m.Reynolds Heron

son Moses c/1802 Benefield Nthants

Obedience c.1815 Mancetter Wrks

Richard c.1818 Newton Kyme Yks

Eli c.1823 Brayton Yks

Susan c.1826 Wortham Sx

--------------------------

Seni & Leshi:

James aka Vanis aka Riley Boss d.1850 Kensington London,

m.Charlotte Hammond d/1863 Notts ran off with Zacky Lee

had: Charles b.cir 1815 m.Elizabeth Wilson 1828 Leic transported died in Australia.

Robert c.1817 Milverton Wrks Transported married Elizabeth Letitia Rex in Australia.

Lorania/Deborainia/Tylorania etc c. as Lorania 1820 Woolpit Sfk, married Aaron Heron aka Young.

Goliah aka Elias c.1826 Sudbourne Sfk transported 1844 with John Budd Gray to Tasmania.
Married Frances Bonney in Tasmania.

By 2nd wife Lucy Boswell James aka Vanis aka Riley Boss:

Naomi 'Omi' married Joseph Crabtree *supposedly died young not found on census. c.1832 Wootton Lin and bapt as dtr of THomas not Riley Boss. (cheat considering she was bapt same day as half sister Agnes.)

Silvester b.cir 1835 went to USA

Issac aka Haggi c.1836 Wootton Lin transported but returned, married Mary Smith b.cir 1837 Liverpool and had a dtr Maud b.cir 1883 Australia. Suppsedly used surname Jones on return.

Elizabeth (Lydia on Boss Pedigree) married Phoenix Taylor she was b.cir 1837 Newmarket

Moellus no other info - but a Moellus s/o John Boswell c.1825 Tydd St Mary.

Nelson b.cir 1840 Wragby Lin married Sophia Heron

Samson b.cir 1843 Nettleby (Nettleham or nettleton) Lin went to USA. m.1) Susie Gray 2) Janie Rowells m.1883 Tallapoosa Alabama USA.

By Susan aka Shurensi/Shorensy Smith 'Yoki Shuri' :

Louis b.cir 1823 supposedly m.`) Alice Gray and 2) Rachel Lee.

Desibera c.1825 the 'Separai' who married Frampton Heron

Brittania 'Annie' c.1826 Grasby Lin, m. William Wilson

Newcombe b.cir 1828 Burton Lin m.Angelina Smith and had Cashmere at Louth 1849.

Deliah Wilhelmina c.1830 Wootton or Hull m.George WIlson

Susan b.cir 1831 Preston Yks m. Potamus GRAY s/o Piramus.

Agnes b.cir4 1832 Wootton Lin spinster of Hull bapt same day as Naomi.

Penelly c.1837 Winteringham Lin

Narroly/Harroly c.1839 Walsham Le Willows Sfk, died young

Seara c.1841 Frithville Lin, married Wm James Boustead of Hull, a fisherman.

Moving on........

Ann65

28-07-2008, 09:05 PM

Peter and Winifred Boss/Boswell:

Randall c.1810 Willington Dby

Sportcella c.1813 Clowne Dby

----------------------------

Anselo/Joseph and Eliza Boss (Cousins)

Charlotte c.1821 Longthorpe Lin m.Phoenix Smith c.1806 Thurnby Leic

Uriah c.1836 Northwich Chs m.Seni/Sinai/Simia Smith b.cir 1841 Leic.

Joanna m.Tom Boss (Cousin) c.1815 Cringleford

Bui Boss b.cir 1815 d.1849 Caistor Lin Dist m. Eldorai Jane Boss who later married Nelson Boswell b.cir 1833 Swinnington Stf.

Mary Ann Tracey who married Bui, 1832 Rudgeley STF

Betsey b.cir 1838 married William Sherriff

Taishan/Letitia

Charles c.1834 Rockcliffe Yk or Delamere Forest Chs. married Saiera/Sara/Syria/Lyari Lovell
b.cir 1836 Worc,

----------------------------------------------------

Ambrose Boss m.1814 Solihull Wks m. Penny Boss or Boswell.

babygirl101

01-08-2008, 01:22 PM

Just to let you know, I've traced Siberamily's (Sibby) death and today her death certificate's arrived. She died 31st August 1917, aged 76 years i.e. born 1841, was the widow of Thomas Smith (b. 1834). Present at her death was her daughter Bella Wilson (presumably this is Isabella b. 1874, now married). She died of senile decay.

BG

babygirl101

12-08-2008, 02:52 PM

knowing the rom id go with Robert Cox = Robert Smith for now.....

Hi Ann

Good suggestion, thanks for that, but since then I've carried on digging and I'm now even more confused than before.

ELIZA INGLETON married a ROBERT COX on 26.2.1849, in Skillington, Lincolnshire. She was aged 18 & he was 19. Her father was, as I expected a THOMAS INGLETON, but this Robert's father was a JOHN COX, labourer. This seems to confirm that ElLIZA INGLETON was actually married to someone else prior to ROBERT SMITH.

I've found a ROBERT COX on 1841 census with his parents, right age and right birthplace (1830, Sproxton, Leicestershire).

The 1851 Census shows him with his wife ELIZA COX (no children).

The 1861 census has no trace of ROBERT COX, but...

ELIZA appears with ROBERT SMITH (son of ROBERT & EVENING SMITH) and they have 2 children by this time - LYDIA SMITH (born 28.12.1852 according to her birth certificate), Skillington, d.o ELIZA COX, formerly INGLETON, although Lydia's birth certificate doesn't give her father name and their son, ROBERT (b. 19.1.1858). Eliza names herself as ELIZA SMITH formerly COX, this time and ROBERT SMITH is named as the childs father.

I've found ROBERT COX on the 1871 Census, he's listed as being single and a 'Pauper Vagrant (Pauper)', so it looks likely that he and Eliza went their separate ways - I suspect they didn't actually divorce somehow and I wouldn't know how to find out if they did!!

To date I haven't managed to find any record of ELIZA (INGLETON/COX) & ROBERT SMITH'S marriage. Is anyone able to offer any solutions as to how to find this. I know they were together and have had children, but I can't find any legal documents confirming their marriage, again, assuming one actually took place.

BG |banghead|

paxisnz

18-09-2008, 08:31 AM

I am researching the family of William ELLIOTT who married Constance GRAY in Lincolnshire in 1856.
I wondered if these people were connected with your family?
I have been unable to find parents for William so would be grateful for any help.
Thank you

PS Sorry i thought i was replying to Ann65.....- this question was for you LOL

Ann65

18-09-2008, 04:29 PM

Right - I believe this is William Elliott b.cir 1835 St Marys Nottingham (according to the Census) whos wife sometimes appears as Dinah and sometimes as Constance, but is probably the Constance Gray who was b.cir 1836 illig daughter of Charles Gray and Jemima Elliott (who later married William Newberry). The children I have found for them are as follows:
Lydia (1857) Jemima (1859) Charlotte (1862) John (1864) Eliza (1867) Charles (1868) Christopher (1870) and William (1872) They were at North Kyme in 1871 and Gt Ponton in 1881.
William Elliott is believed to be a son of Edward Elliott and Martha Smith, Martha being the daughter of William Smith and Juday Brown, and Edward the son of John Elliott and Jemima Smith.

Ann65

18-09-2008, 07:01 PM

Rite. I just realised I completely mis-read my own family tree!
so disregard the above completely!!!

William Elliot b.cir 1834 St Marys Nott was s/o William Elliot b.1812 Willoughby Notts and his wife Harriet Culley. They married in 1824 at St Marys Nott (funny enough my bro married there in 1999!). From what I can tell this is William Elliot and Harriet Culley family:

Edward c.1830 ST Mary Salem Ind. d.1830

Sarah Culley c.1831 St Mary Salem Ind

William c.1834 St Marys Nott married Dinah or Constance Gray c.1836 Potterhanworth Lin d/o Charles Gray and Jemima Elliot (Jemima was b.1816 Willoughby On The Wolds Notts and is younger sister of William Elliot c.1812 Willoughby Notts).

Drusilla c.1836 St James Ind, Nott

Thomas c.1837 Candlesby Lin

Mary Ann c.1839 Waddington Lin

Aaron c.1842 Scredington Lin

Charles c.1854 Brimington Lin

Isabella Catherine c.1856 Burton Coggles Lin

Phineas b.cir 1851 Navenby Lin

Frederick b.cir 1860 Bassingham Lin

Sinpre (Sinfai) b.cir 1861 Navenby Lin

The above mentioned Jemima Gray went on to marry William Newberry in 1842. She died 1849 and he then married Abigail Smith d/o Wisdom b.cir 1828 Castle Bytham.

The Edward Elliot I erronously attributed to this family was the brother of William Elliot, and s/o John Elliot and Jemima Smith. They were married 1795 Medbourne Leic

The children attributed to William Elliot and Constance/Dinah are accurate according to the Cenus.

paxisnz

18-09-2008, 07:53 PM

Thanks so much for all that info - will go and study it carefully.

Ann65

28-09-2008, 06:19 PM

Just a new bit to add to the endless craziness of the Mobbs/Gray/Smith/Boswell Line....

William Gray b.1822 Ancaster who married Salome Ellen Boyling reputedly had a sister Bethania who married Billy Boswell. Shes right there in this thread if you care to go back and re read it all.

William Boswell married Bithia (or variants of) Gray - b.cir 1835 Eakring Nott. Now whether or not she was William Grays full sister, ie a daughter of William Gray snr and Bethania Smith, or a daughter of William Gray and his usual wife Tabitha (Bethanias sister) remains to be uncovered.
For sure one of their children was bapt (according to the IGI) in 1864 at Nun-Burholme Yks, his name was William.

Moving swiftly to William b.1822 half brother Sidney Gray, s/o William & Tabitha, in 1824 at Nth Wheatley Notts. We know he married a Violet Smith, and also Edingale Smith.

I have found a reference to this Violet that I believes solves her parentage (well one of them anyway). Violet Smith illig d/o Rosetta Smith c.14.05.1826 Ruskington Lincs, a travelling woman.

I believe this is the right Violet. As years later Sidney is found travelling with his mother in law! It would appear on the face of it that Violet had a son called Messiah Gray about 1851 and then died, and perhaps Mummy brought baby up whilst Sidney had a family with Edingale. But Im not so sure about that now. I also found a reference to a Messiah Gray c.1848 Hansworth Yks, s/o John & Hannah, which I am sure should read Josiah and Hannah. Hannah Being d/o William and Tabitha. It may well be that he is the Messiah Gray who constantly turns up in later census as being born cir 1850 and from Saxilby Lin.

any takers?

JoanneM

01-10-2008, 04:51 PM

Oh Ann, I think I'm getting as addicted as you are.

Anyway, been looking at Messiah Gray, and I see what you mean, I think. If I'm following you correctly:

In 1891 there's a Messiah Gray in Morton, Lincs, aged 38 and with a birthplace of Ulceby. He's got children named Sidney and Violet.

In 1881 he's in Barton, Lincs, aged 29 and again born Ulceby. There is a widowed 'mother' listed, 'Rosleta' Smith aged 75 and born Leicestershire (maternal grandmother?).

(There's a death reg in 1883, Caistor district, for Rosetta Smith aged 76).

Nothing on this Messiah Gray born Ulceby prior to 1881 except for a reference to his marriage in 1873 to Mary Ellen Tuplin.

Then in 1851 in Pontefract there's a Mezzia Smith (albeit down as female) aged 3 and born Hansworth Yorkshire with grandparents William and Tabitha Gray. Also listed are Josiah and Hannah Smith, son-in-law and daughter.

Birth reg in 1848 Sheffield district for Messiah Smith, and baptism on IGI dated 27th Feb 1848 at Handsworth Sheffield, for Messiah Smith, son of John and Hannah Smith.

So are they the same person or not? Now, it would be interesting to see who Messiah named as his father at his 1873 wedding, and who the witnesses were. Mary Ellen Tuplin is giving her birthplace as Barton on the 1881 and 1891, but looking for her on earlier census she seems to be at Winteringham, so it’s likely the wedding took place at one of those two places. As I'm in Lincolnshire I'll try to get to look at the parish reg's but probably won't have time for a week or two.

There's also an entry in 1871 which is bothering me.

1871 – Minsull Vernon, Cheshire (in a caravan)
Phoenix Boswell head mar 40 tinman Sheffield
Sarah wife mar 40 Worcs Stourport
Messiah son 18 tinman Sheffield
Sarah dau 14 Sheffield
Semiranda dau 10 Sheffield
Mary A. dau 7 Sheffield
George son 3 Sheffield
Jane dau 1 Sheffield

Phoenix Boswell is quite possibly the son of Comfort Wood and Vaino Boss aged 9 on the 1841 census. If he is that would make him a relation (uncle?) to Surrender Boswell/Render Sheriff. I can't find this family on any other census, but the name Messiah, with roughly the correct age, and a birthplace of Sheffield is niggling at me.

One other thing, I had a look for some of the children of Messiah Gray on the 1901 census. He has a son George W. aged 5 in 1881 and 14 in 1891 born Barton on Humber. In 1901 George William Gray is a sergeant at the Cavalry Barrack in Hulme, Manchester (aged 25 and married). Also at this Cavalry Barracks in 1901 is Rabbi Smith, son of Moses Smith and Eldria Gray and husband of my Delerina. Coincidence or not?

Ann65

01-10-2008, 07:09 PM

Oh Ann, I think I'm getting as addicted as you are.

There's also an entry in 1871 which is bothering me.

1871 – Minsull Vernon, Cheshire (in a caravan)
Phoenix Boswell head mar 40 tinman Sheffield
Sarah wife mar 40 Worcs Stourport
Messiah son 18 tinman Sheffield
Sarah dau 14 Sheffield
Semiranda dau 10 Sheffield
Mary A. dau 7 Sheffield
George son 3 Sheffield
Jane dau 1 Sheffield

Phoenix Boswell is quite possibly the son of Comfort Wood and Vaino Boss aged 9 on the 1841 census. If he is that would make him a relation (uncle?) to Surrender Boswell/Render Sheriff. I can't find this family on any other census, but the name Messiah, with roughly the correct age, and a birthplace of Sheffield is niggling at me.

Taking it in bits:

yes that is accurate. Phoenix Boswell was baptised in 1831 at Horkstow Lincs.

Ann65

01-10-2008, 07:16 PM

In 1891 there's a Messiah Gray in Morton, Lincs, aged 38 and with a birthplace of Ulceby. He's got children named Sidney and Violet.

In 1881 he's in Barton, Lincs, aged 29 and again born Ulceby. There is a widowed 'mother' listed, 'Rosleta' Smith aged 75 and born Leicestershire (maternal grandmother?).

(There's a death reg in 1883, Caistor district, for Rosetta Smith aged 76).

Nothing on this Messiah Gray born Ulceby prior to 1881 except for a reference to his marriage in 1873 to Mary Ellen Tuplin.

Then in 1851 in Pontefract there's a Mezzia Smith (albeit down as female) aged 3 and born Hansworth Yorkshire with grandparents William and Tabitha Gray. Also listed are Josiah and Hannah Smith, son-in-law and daughter.

Birth reg in 1848 Sheffield district for Messiah Smith, and baptism on IGI dated 27th Feb 1848 at Handsworth Sheffield, for Messiah Smith, son of John and Hannah Smith.

So are they the same person or not? Now, it would be interesting to see who Messiah named as his father at his 1873 wedding, and who the witnesses were. Mary Ellen Tuplin is giving her birthplace as Barton on the 1881 and 1891, but looking for her on earlier census she seems to be at Winteringham, so it’s likely the wedding took place at one of those two places. As I'm in Lincolnshire I'll try to get to look at the parish reg's but probably won't have time for a week or two.

I would very much like to know the answer to the wedding-father question. I honestly do think its possible/probable that this is where Messiah fits.

Having said that the possibility of him being Messiah Boswell cant be discounted as yet. We need to know more....

Ann65

01-10-2008, 07:18 PM

One other thing, I had a look for some of the children of Messiah Gray on the 1901 census. He has a son George W. aged 5 in 1881 and 14 in 1891 born Barton on Humber. In 1901 George William Gray is a sergeant at the Cavalry Barrack in Hulme, Manchester (aged 25 and married). Also at this Cavalry Barracks in 1901 is Rabbi Smith, son of Moses Smith and Eldria Gray and husband of my Delerina. Coincidence or not?

I think this is some of the data I lost previously in the great PC Crash. I recall finding Rabbi in the cavalry barracks, and the fact that he wasnt the only one there....... but cant recall who else was off the top of my head. I certainly didnt think it was coincidence at the time.

PS there is nothing wrong with addiction. I mean, Im addicted to breathing, for instance :)

babygirl101

02-10-2008, 07:21 AM

I think this is some of the data I lost previously in the great PC Crash. I recall finding Rabbi in the cavalry barracks, and the fact that he wasnt the only one there....... but cant recall who else was off the top of my head. I certainly didnt think it was coincidence at the time.

PS there is nothing wrong with addiction. I mean, Im addicted to breathing, for instance :)

Having checked back through my records that was the conclusion I came to. I have Delarina (Delorane, Dilleraine) as married with her children -

Sarah b. c1871
Moses b.c1876
Walter b.c1881
Mary b. c1883
Rabbi b. c1885
Joseph b. c1890
& Arthur b c1893

on both 1891 & 1901 censuses so I have assumed that the Rabbi you found was her husband.

BG

ps - yes, you're also right - it is addictive :)

chaney999

09-10-2008, 12:21 PM

I have just found this site and think it is great.

I have been researching for sometime now and already have a great deal of information regarding my gg grandad Riley Boss and gg grandmother Susan Shurensi Smith.

However my gg grandmother DELIAH WILHEMINA BOSS (riley and susans daughter) married GEORGE WILSON from hull. I also have another daughter, Deliah's sister BRITTANNIA BOSS married WILLIAM WILSON also from hull and believed to be both brothers. In other words two travelling sisters marry two brothers. Is it possible that the wilson brothers could have also been gypsy?

I am eager to find more information regarding my g g grandparents. Can anyone help?

JoanneM

17-10-2008, 12:36 PM

I've spent a couple of hours at the Archives this morning, and turned a few things up.

Messiah Gray was married at St. Mary's, Barton on Humber on 22nd January 1873, and he named his father as Sidney Gray, labourer.

Full details are:

Jan 22 1873, Messiah Gray, 19 years, bachelor, labourer, abode Barton on Humber, father Sidney Gray, labourer to Mary Ellen Tuplin, 17 years, spinster, no occupation listed, abode Barton on Humber, father Charles Tuplin, occupation looked like claygrinder. Messiah Gray X his mark, Mary Ellen signed her name. Witnesses were Ellen Knight and a John whose surname was virtually unreadable, best guess is something along the line of 'Masters'.

The whole register was hard to read, the image from the reverse of the page was showing through.

Got some more on some other people, just need to sort through it first.

JoanneM

17-10-2008, 01:19 PM

Some years ago I was given some information which said that Tennant Smith's wife was a Caroline Lucy (Tennant being the son of Dennis Smith and Eleanor/Ellen Charlotte).

I've realised from looking at the census returns that Tennant started off with a Caroline who was born c.1838 in Bardley (Bardney?) Lincs, and ended up with a Lucy/Louisa born c.1846 at Susworth.

The penny still didn't drop until I managed to find the following from the JGLS on a google books search:

"The Lucy Smith or Boswell here referred to was one of Elijah's daughters. Her husband, Tennant Smith, a peg-maker, belonged to a family that seems to have been more at home once in Northamptonshire and Oxfordshire than in its present haunts, which are Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire and South Yorkshire."

I've managed to find both Lucy Boswell and Tennant Smiths baptisms today to confirm them.

Scotter, May 13th 1846, Lucy daughter of Elijah and Charlotte Boswell, no abode listed, gypsy.

Irby on Humber, April 26th 1840, Tennant Smith son of Dennis and Eleanor Charlotte Smith, of Irby, gipsy.

I've recently found out that Tennant's mother, Eleanor/Ellen Charlotte married Elijah's son Sidney Boswell on March 14th 1859 at Danby, Guisborough. I don't think she was ever married to Dennis Smith as she uses her surname on most baptisms, and married Sidney as a spinster. There is a baptism on the IGI for an Edmund Boswell in 1860 at York, son of Sidney and Ellen Boswell which may be their child, although I can't find any trace of him after this.

Eleanor/Ellen Charlotte's sister Levanci married Elijah's son Riley, so that's three links between this family and Elijah Boswell.

JoanneM

17-10-2008, 01:29 PM

I forgot these.....

Tabitha GRAY Date 26 Dec 1867 Aged 65 Place Newton on Trent Description St Peter Denomination Anglican County code LIN
1802

Thought I'd check this in case there was any further information. The parish register entry matches, with the additional information "a gipsy who died in the parish".

JoanneM

17-10-2008, 01:40 PM

Some other entries I came across while I was looking at the Owston Ferry baptisms.

All Owston Ferry

18th Feb 1844, Elizabeth daughter of John and Hannah Bowswill, a gipsy.

18th Dec 1844, Matilda daughter of William and Mary Ann Sherriff of West Ferry, jipsey (sic)

(On 1851 census as Matilda Sherriffe at Rushton Spencer, Staffordshire, father William is a cutler and chair mender)

28th March 1854, Gehaze son of William and Bethiah Boswell, place of abode looked like Eledyke (?)

20th Oct 1856 Evergreen son of Harriet Boswell of Owston.

Also, I know you have this, but whilst I was looking through the Scotter baptisms for Lucy, spotted the baptism for Mezanul, son of Ochee and Maranul Boswell, of Scotter, gypsy, dated 28th Sep 1854.

Marie C..

17-10-2008, 05:20 PM

Thomas Smith, a gypsy, was buried Churchover nr, Rugby,on 3rd October1782 aged 100 yrs.

JoanneM

20-10-2008, 10:37 AM

Still googling for snippets of the JGLS (my addiction seems to be worsening, lol!), and found this reference:

"... son of Elijah Boswell and Alice Smith, died at Gainsborough, in 1913. Incidental reference has already been made to the burning of a single light in ... Accrington Observer, March 22, 1913. The Daily Mail (Manchester ed.), March 19, 1913, says there was a postillion in black on each of the leaders, but the local paper is probably more reliable in its information.... "

Anyway, looked on freebmd for any Smiths or Boswell deaths in Gainsborough in 1913, and couldn't find any, so checked December qtr 1912, and there is a death listed for Philistia Smith aged 71.

I did try to find his baptism last week. As he gives his birthplace as Keadby I checked the Keadby with Althorpe parish registers, but didn't find it. Next time I go I'll check the surrounding parishes, and I'm going to see if I can get hold of a copy of the newspaper report to confirm that it is Philistia who is the son of Elijah and Alice.

JoanneM

06-11-2008, 04:39 PM

I've been checking the Nettleham parish registers. I was looking for the baptism of Rabbi Smith, but didn't find it this time as the fiche I checked went up to 1856/57, and I think he's on the next one which I didn't have time to view.

However, I did find Moses and Eldria in Nettleham in 1855 baptising a daughter, Louisa (not seen her mentioned elsewhere so perhaps she died young?).

April 8th 1855, Louisa, parents Moses and Eldreds Smith, abode Nettleham, occupation hawker.

I checked backwards on the fiche, and found another baptism entry in Nettleham:

Birth Feb 8th 1844, bapt Feb 10th 1844, Violet, parents Robert and Bythwell Smith, abode Wymondham, Leicester, occupation gipsy.

It's the mention of Wymondham that's bugging me. Moses and Eldria were there in 1841 with their extended family, including Moses' brother Robert (married to Evening). Is this anything to do with that Robert? And who is 'Bythwell'? I've come across the name Bathwell before, but always as a male name.

There is a possible match for this Violet in a marriage in Derby 1878 to William Carter, a travelling grinder. She's on the 1891 at Derby (one of her children is a son named Rabbi), and the Violet from 1891 appears at Attercliffe cum Darnell, Yorks in 1881 as 'Barnett Carter' with other Smiths, an Elliott family and what appears to be one of my Charlottes.

babygirl101

08-11-2008, 08:31 AM

It's the mention of Wymondham that's bugging me. Moses and Eldria were there in 1841 with their extended family, including Moses' brother Robert (married to Evening). Is this anything to do with that Robert? And who is 'Bythwell'? I've come across the name Bathwell before, but always as a male name.

As far as I can tell Robert who was married to Evening was the sister of Tabitha Smith who went on to married William Grey. They had a daughter Eldereye (1824) who married Moses Smith (b. 1816). Moses was the son of a Thomas & Sylvia Smith and was born in Harby Leic, they also had another son Thomas (b. 1811).

I had at one point wondered if he was Roberts brother, but Roberts parents were Wisdom/William (still not totally sure yet on this one) & Hannah, so the connection appears to be Eldereye who would have been Roberts neice, if my assumptions are correct.

BG

JoanneM

10-11-2008, 11:28 AM

As far as I can tell Robert who was married to Evening was the sister of Tabitha Smith who went on to married William Grey. They had a daughter Eldereye (1824) who married Moses Smith (b. 1816). Moses was the son of a Thomas & Sylvia Smith and was born in Harby Leic, they also had another son Thomas (b. 1811).

BG

Now I had Eldria Gray, daughter of James Gray/Mobbs and Bethania Smith marrying Moses Smith (b.1816 son of Thomas and Sylvia Smith).

I've checked the marriage for Moses and Eldria and her fathers name is WILLIAM GRAY. So it would seem that you are right with her being Eldereye, daughter of William and Tabitha.

Marriage details are:

Wickenby, Aug 10th 1846, Moses Smith, full age, bachelor, gipsey, abode - extraparochial land by Lissing Lee, father Thomas Smith, gipsey to Eldri Gray, full age, spinster, same abode, father William Gray, gipsey. They were married after banns, both made their mark and the witnesses were Jonathan and Elizabeth Sharp.

So William Gray also went with Tabitha's sister Bethania, and had a son, also William, who married Lumi Ellen Boyling and settled in Nettleham, Lincolnshire. I think the baptism at Nettleham of Violet, daughter of Robert Smith of Wymondham, Leicestershire has to be linked in to this family somehow, especially as Violet does seem to be a name they used.

I had Roberts parents as Thomas and Sylvia, making him the brother of Moses, but I'm not sure of that right now.

babygirl101

10-11-2008, 07:21 PM

Ok here goes, this is my understanding of this part of the Smith/Gray/Mobbs family:-

Wisdom Smith (28.3.1763 - 4.5.1839) was married to a Hannah (surname unknown as yet). They had the following children:-

Absalom b. 1783, Marston Trussell Northants - I don't have any more info about him.

Edward 1786, Watford Northamptonshire. Edward married a Mary Ann (b. 1819 so considerably younger than Edward). They had the following children:-

Jane (b. 1843)
Elizabeth (b.1845)
Thomas (b. 1847)
Caroline (b. 1850)
Sarah (b.1853)
Israel (b. 1856).

Eunice (Unity) - 1791, (16.1.1791),Long Buckby, married James Smith. They had the following chilrden:-

Wisdom 12.11.1812, Woolsthorpe near Grantham
William 22.01.1815, Kyme Lincolnshire

Wisdom (12.11.1812), then married a Hannah Smith (d.o Mendoza Smith & Ann Hodskin) and they had the following chilrden:-

Semeller b 1837, Ragson Lincolnshire
Rudlfer b. 1840, Carringham Lincolnshire
William b 1841, Lindrie Common Yorkshire
Sarah b. 1843, Willowtown Lincolnshire
Elden b. 1852, Dundham Lincolnshire

He then remarried in 1831 - Eliza Boswell and they had a son Wisdom (b. 1834) who married a Priscilla Bagley.

William married Mausolina Hearn(Heron) - I don't have anything else for them though.

Nathaniel b 1792, Long Buckby, Northamptonshire married a Patience and they had one daughter Mary (b 1826).

There was a Robert, s/o Wisdom & Hannah Smith, who I think is this one - Robert married to Evening(Eve) was the son of a Wm Smith & Hannah. He was christened 13th March 1794, Whitwick Leic and was buried 9th April 1882Caunton, Notts, I have a copy of his death certificate, the informant was Sybilla Smith, wife of Thomas Smith. Thomas was the informant of his mothers death (Evening) 7th January 1872.

Robert & Eve (aka Evening, aka Evelin) had the following children:-

Isabel b.1817
Sesevoy b.1822 (baptized 14.12.1822)
St Helena b.1825
Noah b.1827 (baptized 8.7.1827)
Robert b.1829 (baptized 30.12.1829), Robert went on to marry my great, great, great grandmother Eliza Ingleton, then Mary Ann Hancock, then Eliza Antliff - busy man!!!
& Thomas b 1834 (baptized 15.6.1834), the one who was married to Siberamily (aka Sybilla).

Lissey Smith (baptized 4.1.1795 and died shortly after).

Next came Wisdom Smith 5.6.1796 - 1881. Wisdom married Amy Haywood in 1853 (no children); then Maria Elet on 1st July 1818, Saltby,Leic. They had a son Wisdom b 1818.

Wisdom (1818) married a Hannah (b. around 1829), from Navenby, Lincolnshire and they had the following chilrden:-

Ruben (b. 1844), Somerby Lincs
Isabella (b.1850), Basingham Lincs
Joseph (b.1852), Ropsley Lincs
Evergreen (b. 1854), Dyke Lincolnshire
Hercules (b. 1856), Dunsby Lincs
William (b. 1859), Heightington Lincs

Going back to Wisdom (b 1796) he also appeared to have married an Esther and a Sarah according to the census returns.

Salvino b. 24.6.1798), Moulton Northamptonshire.

Bethany (Bethania) 24.8.1800, Seaton Rutland. Bethania married James Grey (s/o Charles Grey & Equilla).

They had 4 chilrden:-

Righteous b 1827, Elkesley Nottinghamshire, who married Sagey Heron in 1854.
Cornelius b.1827, Elkesley Nottinghamshire.
Francis 1835 - 1913, Boston Lincs who married Selina Grey (I think). They had these children:

Cornelius (b 1860), Belton Lincs
Avelin (b.1864), Ashtoft, Yorks
Elisha (b. 1867), Gainsborough
Bethany (b. 1868), Sheffield
Delarina (b. 1869), Yorks
Emily (b .1871) Winteringham Lincs

This part of the family were using the surname Mobbs on the 1881 census for some reason???

and finally Elias Grey (b. 1844), Abbots Rippon Huntingdon. Elias married Amelia Heron (sister of Sagey) and they had:-

Abigail (b 1867) who married Iza Heron (b 1867).
Mary (b 1869), who married Alfred Smith
Mizelli (b 1871).
Sunpoleon (1876) aka George/Poley
Matilda (b 1878).

Wisdoms next daughter was Tabitha (b. 16.1.1803 - 26.12.1867), Cropwell Bishop Nottinghamshire. Tabitha married William Grey and they had:-

Hannah (b 1820) Ingleby Lincolnshire who married Josiah Smith (b.1815), Stowsby Rutland. They had 4 children:-

Winesse (b 1839), Netwell Yorkshire
Sophia (b. 1841). S yorks
Mezzia (b 1848) Handsworth Sheffield
Otho (b. 1851) Cawthorn Yorkshire

See next message ...

babygirl101

10-11-2008, 07:24 PM

Their next child was Eldereye (b. 16.5.1824 - 1862), and she married Moses Smith (b 1816) Harby Leic, Aug 10th 1846, Moses being the brother of Thomas Smith (b. 1811), Teigh Rutland, they were the sons of Thomas Smith (b 1790) and Sylvia.

Eldereye and Moses had:-

Thomas (b 1840), Harby Leic), who married Sophia Smith, from Caistor, Lincs and they had Joshua (b 1866), Barkwith, Lincolnshire & John (b 1879) Lincs.

Sophia (b. 1841) Harby Leicestershire

Emma (Emily) b. (1846) Normanby Lincolnshire, who married Philistia Smith (b 1843), Keadby, Lincolnshire. As far as I can tell they had 2 daughters - Aradine (b. 1873), Tickhill S Yorkshire & Lucy (b. 1876) Haxey Lincolnshire.

John (b. 1850), Bishops Norton Lincolnshire.

Sarah (b 1851), Willowton,Lincolnshire

Rabbi (b. 1857), Nettleham Lincolnshire. Rabbi married Delarina (aka Delorane, Dilleraine) and they had:-
Sarah (b. 1872), Gainsborough)
Moses (b 1876), Lincs
Walter (b 1881), Lincs
Mary (b 1882), Gainsborough
Rabbi (b 1885), Gainsborough)
Joseph (b 1890), Gainsborough
Arthur (b. 1893), Bole Notts

and Walter (b 1861), Repham Lincolnshire

Next came Sidney (25.1.1824) North Wheatley Notts who married a Mary and they had a son & daughter:-

William (b 1865) Tuxford Nottinghamshire & Mary (b 1867), Market Rasen).

Messiah (b. 21.2.1830), Saxilby Lincs)
Alexander (19.4.1834), Harmston Lincolnshire
Mary (b. 1.5.1836), Welton by Lincoln
Josiah (b 4.9.1840), Welton by Lincoln, who married a Harriet (b. 1837), Blyton Lincolnshire. They had 7 children:-

William (b. 1853), Barrow Lincs
Elijah (aka Lasher) (b. 1856), Stockton Lincs
Moses (b. 1862) , Barkwith Lincs
Reajiel (b. 1864), Market Rasen Lincs
Uriah (b. 1869), Market Rasen, Lincs
Charles (b. 1872), Market Rasen, Lincs
Mary Ann (b. 1875), Market Rasen Lincs

And finally, Cale (b. 1847), Carleton Lincolnshire. Cale married Eva (b. 1851), South Ferriby Lincolnshire and they had:-

Joseph (b. 1871), Bardney Lincs
Mary (b. 1873), Scarobrough, Yorks)
Iisiah (aka James), (b. 1877), Lincs
Keli (b 1881), Lincs
William (b 1884), Worksop, Notts

Wisdom & Hannahs final child was Salome (12.2.1807), Irthlingborough Northamptonshire. They may well have had others but these are the ones I have come across.

This little lot should give you plenty of names to keep you busy.

Hope this helps. If I've got anything wrong, which is quite likely with this lot please let me know.

BG :)

JoanneM

11-11-2008, 10:49 AM

This little lot should give you plenty of names to keep you busy.

Hope this helps. If I've got anything wrong, which is quite likely with this lot please let me know.

BG :)

Plenty, thank you, and it helps enormously. I'm going to go and read through it all now.

Hopefully I should get time to go to the Archives in Lincoln again next week, so if I find out anything else relating to these folk I'll post it on here.

Jo.

babygirl101

11-11-2008, 08:24 PM

I knew I’d seen these names somewhere (on the Notts FHS CD):-

This is one I missed from yesterdays posting:-

Charlotte grey d/o William & Tabitha. Baptized 24th March 1826, Askham, Notts. Occupations – travellers.

Boswells, all gipsies & travellers:-

Baptisms:-

Mordecai parents Josiah & Elizabeth 28.2.1849 Finningley

Selina parents John & Rebecca 18.3.1838, Arnold

Nelson parents Samson & Cornelia 14.9.1870, Hucknall

Matthias parents James & Betsy 3.4.1825, North Clifton

Martha Isobel parents John & Ann Whitehead Goodacre, 21.5.1879,
St Matthews, Nottm, Horse dealer

Esther parents Zachariah & Elizabeth 26.3.1843, Southwell Minster, Itinerant tinker

Mary Ann parents Zecharias & Sarah 26.11.1815, Radford St Peter
Tinker

Mordecai parents Absalom & Mary 29.10.1820, Misterton
Tinker

Sarah parents Nelson & Jane 23.2.1851, Barton in Fabis
Travelling gipsies

Randall parents James & Ann 17.9.1836, Basford,
Travelling tinkers/gipsies

Uriah parents Israel & Mary 31.12.1826, Blyth,
Tinman & Braizer

Asher parents Lazarus & Harriet 17.1.1830, Babworth
Travelling gipsy

Matilda – no parents given 7.4.1852, Gringley
Traveller

Okey parents Elijah & Alice 3.1.1830, Sutton cum Lound, traveller

Phoenix parents Phoenix & Traynet 16.11.1831, St Marys, Newark
Travelling Brazier

Burials

Harriet 8.10.1832 aged 38 South Leverton, in an encampment

Ann 24.6.1815 aged 28 Scrooby, wife of Israel, a gipsy

Charlotte 2.7.1810 no age given Newark, d/o Absalom & Ann

Ambrose 26.1.1837 aged 99 Laneham, a gipsy

Charles 21.4.1798 no age given East Markham

Hope these of use to someone given that we know that the Smiths/Greys & Boswell names seem to have been interchangeable!!!!!

BG :D

JoanneM

11-11-2008, 09:53 PM

I knew I’d seen these names somewhere (on the Notts FHS CD):-

Boswells, all gipsies & travellers:-

Baptisms:-

Asher parents Lazarus & Harriet 17.1.1830, Babworth
Travelling gipsy

Okey parents Elijah & Alice 3.1.1830, Sutton cum Lound, traveller

Burials

Harriet 8.10.1832 aged 38 South Leverton, in an encampment

Hope these of use to someone given that we know that the Smiths/Greys & Boswell names seem to have been interchangeable!!!!!

BG :D

I'm sure I've read somewhere that Elijah Boswell used the name Lazarus, and I think the baptism of Asher above could well be a child of Elijah Boswell and Harriet. Okey is his son with Alice Smith. The burial of Harriet could very well be Elijah's wife, she had Isaiah/Elisha bapt in 1823 and Herilah/Riley in 1827, but no I have no record of her after that.

I'm pretty sure that Delerina Smith, who married Rabbi Smith, is connected to Elijah Boswells family.

Whilst Okey has been mentioned, I came across a baptism for a daughter of his, at Haxey in the Isle of Axholme, Lincs.

Sep 9th 1860 Henrietta Victoria, daughter of Okey and Maraniel Smith, abode Retford, vagrant.

Also at Haxey:

July 14th 1859 Elijah, son of William and Bithiah Boswell, abode Westwoodside, hawker.

Off to have a look at this new information now.

Jo.

JoanneM

12-11-2008, 09:48 AM

This is one I missed from yesterdays posting:-

Charlotte grey d/o William & Tabitha. Baptized 24th March 1826, Askham, Notts. Occupations – travellers.

So she is presumably the Charlotte married to Thomas Smith born c.1811 in Teigh, Rutland, and who is the brother of Moses who married Eldria. The age and birthplace is right.

babygirl101

12-11-2008, 02:26 PM

So she is presumably the Charlotte married to Thomas Smith born c.1811 in Teigh, Rutland, and who is the brother of Moses who married Eldria. The age and birthplace is right.

Who's a clever bunny then, well done you, I hadn't made that connection at all, but YES, you're quite right, the plot thickens.

BG :)

JoanneM

13-11-2008, 10:47 AM

Who's a clever bunny then, well done you, I hadn't made that connection at all, but YES, you're quite right, the plot thickens.

BG :)

lol, I've now got a 20 odd page document with all the census data in for this lot as it's the only way I can keep track of them. It also makes it quite easy to type in a name and search for it which is how I found Charlotte.

Wisdoms next daughter was Tabitha (b. 16.1.1803 - 26.12.1867), Cropwell Bishop Nottinghamshire. Tabitha married William Grey and they had:-
See next message ...

Josiah (b 4.9.1840), Welton by Lincoln, who married a Harriet (b. 1837), Blyton Lincolnshire. They had 7 children:-

William (b. 1853), Barrow Lincs
Elijah (aka Lasher) (b. 1856), Stockton Lincs
Moses (b. 1862) , Barkwith Lincs
Reajiel (b. 1864), Market Rasen Lincs
Uriah (b. 1869), Market Rasen, Lincs
Charles (b. 1872), Market Rasen, Lincs
Mary Ann (b. 1875), Market Rasen Lincs

I've got Harriet and the above children attached to Joshua Gray/Mobbs, son of James Gray and Bethania Smith. This family seem to use Mobbs as a surname (Elijah is on the 1881 as Lasher Mobbs), and as far as I know it was just James Gray who went by the surname Mobbs and not William Gray.

I've also got another child, Raney (possibly another Delerana?) born c.27th Nov 1866 at Lissington, Lincs.

I've no other information on the Josiah born c.1840 to William Gray and Tabitha.

Jo.

JoanneM

13-11-2008, 11:03 AM

Ok here goes, this is my understanding of this part of the Smith/Gray/Mobbs family:-

Bethany (Bethania) 24.8.1800, Seaton Rutland. Bethania married James Grey (s/o Charles Grey & Equilla).

They had 4 chilrden:-

Righteous b 1827, Elkesley Nottinghamshire, who married Sagey Heron in 1854.
Cornelius b.1827, Elkesley Nottinghamshire.
Francis 1835 - 1913, Boston Lincs who married Selina Grey (I think). They had these children:

Cornelius (b 1860), Belton Lincs
Avelin (b.1864), Ashtoft, Yorks
Elisha (b. 1867), Gainsborough
Bethany (b. 1868), Sheffield
Delarina (b. 1869), Yorks
Emily (b .1871) Winteringham Lincs

This part of the family were using the surname Mobbs on the 1881 census for some reason???

and finally Elias Grey (b. 1844), Abbots Rippon Huntingdon. Elias married Amelia Heron (sister of Sagey) and they had:-

Abigail (b 1867) who married Iza Heron (b 1867).
Mary (b 1869), who married Alfred Smith
Mizelli (b 1871).
Sunpoleon (1876) aka George/Poley
Matilda (b 1878)

I have either 7 or 8 children for James Gray/Mobbs and Bethania, depending on how you look at it.

Firstly, I had the Eldria who married Moses Smith, who now looks to belong to William Grey and Tabitha. Not sure whether or not there was another Eldria in this family, or not, so if we discount her there are now 7 children. I agree with the ones you've listed above, but could add Joshua, born c.1821-1830 Ingham, Lincs (see my post above), Sabrina, born c.1837 and Moses, born c. 5th Apr 1840 Corringham, Lincs, and who married a Silvia Smith. I have the children of Moses and Silvia as:

Righteous, born c.1860 Gainsborough (married Lucy Rogers)
Cornelius, born c.1863 Springthorpe
Levi, born c.1865 Lincoln (married Mary Ellen Gabbitas)
Mary J., born c.1867 Tresswell Notts
James, born c.1870 Gainsborough (married Sophia Gray born c.1875 Market Rasen, daughter of Sidney Gray and Edingal/Mary Ann Smith - incidentally, if you've got an A**y subscription there's quite a bit on this James on the WW1 pension docs)
John, born c.1871 Gainsborough
Elizabeth, born c.1878 Gainsborough
Florence, born c.1884 Gainsborough

JoanneM

13-11-2008, 11:16 AM

Next came Sidney (25.1.1824) North Wheatley Notts who married a Mary and they had a son & daughter:-

William (b 1865) Tuxford Nottinghamshire & Mary (b 1867), Market Rasen).

If I'm right, I've got a few more children of Sidney Gray.

From what Ann said earlier in this thread it looked like he had a child with Violet, illg daughter of Rosetta Smith, namely Messiah Gray born c.1848-1852 who settled in Barton on Humber and married Mary Ellen Tuplin. The IGI also has a couple of other baptims for Sidney and Violet Gray, two daughters:

Delenda, 27th Feb 1847, Claxby near Normanby
Maria, 10th Jul 1850, Barton on Humber

Then Sidney married Edingal/Mary Ann Smith. I have the two children you mention above (although if I've been looking at the right census entries William seems to use Booth as a surname in later life, so I'm not 100% sure he is Sidney's son, especially as he didn't marry Edingal/Mary Ann until 1873). Also have:

David, born c.1871 Market Rasen
George, born c.1874 Market Rasen (married Sarah Ann Key)
Sophia, born c.1875 Market Rasen (who married James Gray/Mobbs)

JoanneM

13-11-2008, 12:14 PM

Francis 1835 - 1913, Boston Lincs who married Selina Grey (I think). They had these children:

Cornelius (b 1860), Belton Lincs
Avelin (b.1864), Ashtoft, Yorks
Elisha (b. 1867), Gainsborough
Bethany (b. 1868), Sheffield
Delarina (b. 1869), Yorks
Emily (b .1871) Winteringham Lincs

This part of the family were using the surname Mobbs on the 1881 census for some reason???

I've got these children also for Francis Gray/Smith/Mobbs (he seems to use all surnames, just to make life a little easier for anyone looking for him, lol), and I'm happy with Elisha, Delarina and Emily, but I've never been totally convinced that Cornelius, Avelin and Bethany are his children.

Francis is on the 1841 at Francis Mobs aged 2, at Wymondham with his parents and extended family.

1851 - no trace.

1861 - there is a very good match for him (if we accept that he also uses the surname Smith):

1861 – North Frodingham, Yorkshire (in a farm stable)
Francis Smith head mar 25 tramp Lincs Boston
Eliza wife mar 23 Cheshire Macclesfield
Francis son 2 Lincs town not known
Eliza dau 1 month Notts Worksop
Anthony Boswell head mar 30 tramp Notts Worksop
Elizabeth wife 24 Notts Worksop
Alfred son 3 Yorks Thorpe
Evergreen son 1 month Notts Worksop

In 1871 he is again a Smith, with Alice Smith who I think is the one who had children with Elijah Boswell, and Elijah travelled with William and James Gray.

1871 - Laneham Notts - in a tent
Alice Smith head widow 40 gipsy wandering life nk
Joseph Gray son unm 20 notts treswell
Jeremiah Boswell son marr 40 gipsy life notts babworth (s/o Elijah Boswell and Alice Smith)
Hannah Smith dau 15 gainsboro (d/o Jeremiah and Lunetta Boswell)
Francis Smith son marr 38 lincs repsby(?)/kegsby(?) (s/o James Gray and Bethania Smith)
Emily Smith dau 3 winterton (d/o Francis Gray aka Mobbs)
Deliremy Smith dau 5 Yorks kirton/Kirby (d/o Francis Gray aka Mobbs)
Elisha Smith 7 Gainsboro (s/o Francis Gray aka Mobbs)
Dilerany dau 14 yorks oldcoster

The 14 year old Dilerany is the closest match I've got for the Delerina who married Rabbi Smith - I'm 90% sure it's her.

There is an entry on the IGI for the baptism of an Emily Smith at Winteringham in 1868 (her birthplace is Winteringham in 1881), daughter of Francis and Henrietta Smith.

So, where is Henrietta, and if the entry in 1861 is the same man, his wife Eliza, and son and daughter Francis and Eliza?

1881 and he's at Dawsons Court in Lincoln. His children identify him from the 1871 entry.

1881 - 1 The Hut, Dawsons Court, Lincoln
Francis Mobbs head widow 46 Boston
Delerina Mobbs dau 12 York
Emily dau 10 Winteringham
Elisha son 14 Gainsboro
Cornelius son 21 Belton
Bethany dau 13 Sheffield
Avelin 17 Eastoft
Eliza Smith, boarder, 30, Mansfield Notts (poss d/o Elijah Boswell)
Alice Smith, boarder, 60, Branston (poss Alice, m/o Jeremiah Boswell)

Cornelius, Avelin and Bethany have now put in an appearance, but I can't find them on any previous census. The boarder Eliza Smith is, I think, the daughter of Elijah Boswell who was born 'among the ling in Mansfield forest'.

1891, and Francis is now living with the Eliza Smith who was a boarder on the 1881 and they have a daughter, Wilhemina. His son Elisha is also there.

1891 – Whitton Lincs (gypsy tent)
Francis Smith head mar 47 peg maker Lincs Boston
Eliza wife 49 Notts Mansfield
Willomeno dau 11 Stockwith
Elisha Smith head mar 26 peg maker Gainsboro
Susannah mar wife 30 Notts Newark
William son 11 Notts Newark
Thomas son 9 Notts Newark
Cornelius son 5 Gainsboro
Elizabeth dau 5 Lincoln
Frances dau 11 months Lincoln

Lastly, the 1901 census. Francis would appear to be in the nick, at Lincoln prison. His wife is at Gainsborough, a few houses away from daughter Wilhemina, and next door to Vesta Smith who, in 1891, is with Cornelius who may or may not be the son of Francis (I think the Joshua aged 12 is the son of Vesta Smith and Cornelius Gray/Mobbs/Smith/whatever surname he chose to use).

1901 – 1 Shugars Yard, Gainsboro
Vesta Smith head unm 32 Heckmondwyke (d/o Sidney Smith, g/d of Dennis Smith and Eleanor Charlotte, liaison with Cornelius s/o Francis Gray aka Mobbs)
Joshua son 12 North Cave
Sarah Ann dau 8 West Stockwith
Eli son 6 Hull
Next door:
Eliza Mobbs wife 49 Notts Mansfield (Eliza Smith who is a boarder with Francis Mobbs in 1881, poss d/o Elijah Boswell)
Frank Smith g/son 19 Gainsboro
Three houses away:
John Smith head mar 23 marine store dealer Sheffield
Wilhemina wife 21 Notts West Stockwith
Florrie dau 5 Burringham Lincs
John (William?) son 5 months Gainsboro

1901 – Lincoln Prison
Frank Mobbs widower 70 Boston

Hope you followed all that, lol. It makes it easier for me to understand too when I see it written down.

Jo.

babygirl101

13-11-2008, 05:23 PM

I've got Harriet and the above children attached to Joshua Gray/Mobbs, son of James Gray and Bethania Smith. This family seem to use Mobbs as a surname (Elijah is on the 1881 as Lasher Mobbs), and as far as I know it was just James Gray who went by the surname Mobbs and not William Gray.

I've no other information on the Josiah born c.1840 to William Gray and Tabitha.

Jo.

Hmmm, according to IGI Tabitha & William had a son Josiah and I have him travelling with his sister Eldereye & Moses Smith plus about a dozen others in Reepham, Lincs on 1861census ??? maybe there was more than one - back to you on that one lol

BG :D

JoanneM

14-11-2008, 01:52 PM

1861 Reepham Lin (rough cos you obviously have it)

Moses Smith
Eldria Smith (nee Gray)
with their children:
Thomas
Sophia
Emma
John
Sarah
Rabbi
Walter

Thomas Smith Moses brother
Charlotte Smith Thomas' wife

Joshua Gray Eldrias brother
Harriet Brown - one would presume this is his wife considering where she is on the list
and their children:
William Smith
Elisha Smith

Elizabeth Mobbs should read Bethania Gray/Mobbs - mother in law
Harriet Smith hadnt actually noticed the two harriets before! - this is certainly the right person to be Joshuas wife, being born in Blyborough
Sophia Smith unknown
Letitia Mobbs Niece - havent tracked her down yet.

Im very confused now you have pointed it out. Im going to go have another hunt

Letitia Mobbs married Joseph Hitchin at Lincoln in 1864. There is a death on freebmd for a Joseph Hitchin aged 26 in Lincoln.

This would then correspond with the 'Lettice Hitchin, widow' who is at Cross Keys Yard, Lincoln in 1871 with Philistia Smith (as Plister Smith) and his wife Emily, Moses Smith and others.

1871 – Lincoln, Cross Keys Yard
William Ellett head marr 26 chair bottomer and clothes peg maker, Brigg
Sarah wife 23 Willoughton
Plister Smith head mar 27 Keadby
Emily wife 25 Normanby
Lettice Hitchins lodger widow 25 Huffam
John Hitchins son 6 Lincoln
Clara Hitchins dau 3 Lincoln
Rebecca Hitchins dau 1 Lincoln
Moses Smith head widower 59 chair bottomers, pot hawkers and clothes peg makers Harby
Thomas son marr (in law) 36 Saxilby
Sophia dau marr 26 Caster (Caistor)
Thomas son unm 38 Nottinghamshire
Charlotte (Siberamily?) dau unm 42 Wooton Lincs
Louisa dau 21 Caistor
Elizabeth dau 16 Nettleham
Rebecca dau 15 Nettleham
Miriam dau 9 Nettleham
Joseph son 5 Barkworth Lincs
Betsy dau 9 Lincoln

I've had a look on the Lincolnshire Marriage Index website and it lists the marriage of Letitia and Joseph Hitchin, and gives Letitia's father as James Mobbs. So, if she is niece to Moses and Eldria on the 1861 then her mother must be a sister to one of them (assuming the relationship of niece is correct).

I've got the marriage down on my list of things to check when I can get to the Archives next.

JoanneM

14-11-2008, 04:46 PM

There is a death on freebmd for a Joseph Hitchin aged 26 in Lincoln.

Forgot to say, the death is registered in 1870.

JoanneM

20-11-2008, 06:26 PM

Been to the Archives again and found the following info. Thought I'd post in case it was of use.

Market Rasen - Feb 18th 1873 - marriage of Sidney GRAY, full age, bachelor, labourer of Market Rasen, father William GRAY labourer to Headingirl SMITH, full age, spinster of Market Rasen, father Sidney SMITH labourer, married after banns, witnesses were Harriet BROWN and Js. Ed. HOLMES.

Lincoln - St. Paul in the Bail - June 27th 1864
Joseph HITCHIN, 20, bachelor, tinman, No. 4 Lee's Ct, West Gate, father John HITCHIN tinman to Letitia MOBBS, 20, spinster, same address, father James MOBBS deceased, after banns, witnesses were John DEAN and Jane HITCHIN.

Lincoln - St. Paul in the Bail - Oct 4th 1869
Thomas SMITH, 29, bachelor, labourer, Cross Keys Yd, father Moses SMITH labourer to Sophia SMITH, 23, spinster, same address, father Denis SMITH labourer, after banns, witnesses were Joshua and Charlotte SMITH.

Normanby by Sital - Se 27th 1841
William GRAY, 20, bachelor, gipsy of Normanby, father William GRAY gipsy to Loangellin BOYLING, 18, spinster of Normanby, father George BOYLING potter, after banns, witnesses were James SMITH and Ann NICKELL(?).

Nettleham - Sep 29th 1856
Thomas SMITH, 45, bachelor, musician of Nettleham, father Thomas SMITH musician to Charlotte SMITH, 31, spinster of Nettleham, father William SMITH besom maker, after banns, witnesses were James WOOD and Salome SMITH.

(Think the above is probably Charlotte GRAY, daughter of William and Tabitha).

Gainsborough Holy Trinity - Dec 6th 1890
George Edward GRAY, 19, bachelor, moulder, 7 Albion place, father Sidney GRAY (deceased) traveller to Sarah Ann KEY, 19, spinster, same address, father William KEY (deceased) steward, after banns, witnesses were A. W. FREEMAN and Sophia GRAY.

Gainsborough Holy Trinity - April 4th 1891
James MOBBS, 21, bachelor, labourer, 22 Rosebloom Terrace, father Moses MOBBS labourer to Sophia GRAY, 18, spinster of 7 Albion Place, father Sidney GRAY (deceased) labourer, after banns, witnesses were George E. GRAY and Sophia SMITH.

JoanneM

20-11-2008, 06:35 PM

South Ferriby baptisms

Jan 12th 1851 - Eve, parents Ryley and Levancy BOSWELL, abode listed as 'for the time S. Ferriby', gipsy.

Feb 2nd 1851 - Allerdine (Aradine?), parents Nathaniel and Eliza SMITH, abode listed as 'S. Ferriby for time being', gipsy

Nettleham baptisms

Jan 11th 1857 - Raby, parents Moses and Eldred SMITH of Nettleham, hawker

Feb 7th 1858 - Albert, parents James and Linburn SMITH of Nettleham, hawker

March 15th 1862 - Maria Ann, parents Thomas and Sophia SMITH of Nettleham, hawker

(Think Maria Ann is Miriam on the 1871 census, with her parents at Cross Keys Yd, Lincoln).

JoanneM

20-11-2008, 07:43 PM

Gainsborough Holy Trinity - Dec 6th 1890
George Edward GRAY, 19, bachelor, moulder, 7 Albion place, father Sidney GRAY (deceased) traveller to Sarah Ann KEY, 19, spinster, same address, father William KEY (deceased) steward, after banns, witnesses were A. W. FREEMAN and Sophia GRAY.

Forgot to say, Sarah Ann Key is the step-daughter of William Gray/Booth, son of Sidney and Edingal/Mary Ann Smith. William's wife, Martha, was previously married to the deceased William Key.

AndrewH

14-12-2008, 12:13 PM

I've got a puzzler which is the initial reason why I've just joined this board.

A GGGrandfather of mine, Hugh Smith (b York 1855) has an Israel Boswell shown as a Father-in-law, living with his family in 1901, in Seaton Carew. I'm pretty sure of my research on his wife and he isn't her father. After googling for a bit I discovered a few Romany-related sites where Israel Boswell is mentioned in passing, but nothing too concrete.

A few related bits of info - Israel Boswell seems to be sometimes known as Israel Smith. The names Harriet and Riley crop up a lot ( I think Riley is another form of Herilah (?). I mentioned to my Mam yesterday if gypsies where ever mentioned when she was younger and she said she wouldn't be surprised!

Any advice would be very gratefully received.

Ann65

15-12-2008, 02:30 AM

Israel Smith or Boswell, s/o Herilah/Riley Boswell and Levancy Charlotte
b.cir 1851-6 Barrow on Humber d.1912 Scarborough, married Maria Jefferson 30.12.1878 Scarborough.

Herilah/Riley Boswell s/o Elijah Boswell and Harriet Woodward, c.04.03.1827 Bole Notts d.26.03.1896 Scarborough. Married (1855) Levancy Charlotte d/o John Charlotte & Sophia Smith, c.05.07.1825 Walesby d.1916 Scarborough.

Elijah Boswell had many children by at least 3 wives and some of them went by the surname of Smith.

AndrewH

15-12-2008, 08:10 AM

Many thanks for the suggestions but it's a different Israel Boswell - this one was born 1837 in Lincs (possibly Barrow) ,and died Hartlepool 1902. I do think that there is a connection though, too many Harriets and Rileys to be a coincidence.

Think this one will need a marriage certificate to clear up fathers' names. I'll get one in the new year and let you know.

Thanks again!

rawnybossie

04-01-2009, 11:35 AM

hi im trying to find information about my gr grandad Oconnor boswell, is birth i think is around 1847, his fathers name was thomas , dont know who is mother was, thomas is buried in the old birkenhead cemetry but cant find any information on him, connor was married to lina finney, iv looked thru everything i can find and cant get anymore information , can anyone find anything for me , |moon|

Ann65

08-01-2009, 03:45 PM

Oconnor Boswell b.cir 1847 Eastby Stf, s/o Thomas Boswell b.cir 1814 Ox, and Jane Tanzy (Tansy) b.cir 1814 Frisby (Firsby??) Lincs. He died 1897 she died 1886.

Oconnor married Angelina Finney d/o John. m.15.05.1878 Congleton Cheshire.

Children were: Herbert Walter (1880) John (1897) Lily Rosalina (1892) Reclonus Rudolphus (1888) Sarah Ann (1886) Sybarina (1894)

Oconnor had at least one brother and at least one sister:

Eliza Boswell b.cir 1843 Eastby
Benjamin Boswell b.cir 1832 Stourbridge Worc married Jane Eliza.

rawnybossie

09-01-2009, 09:14 AM

Thanks for that. he must have died the year my grandad was born then , as my grandad was john

rawnybossie

09-01-2009, 09:16 AM

or is the dates of the deaths thomas and jane ?

RosieM

06-02-2009, 07:19 PM

Hi I just joined today after noticing you had found some of my distant family. My GG Grandmother was Letitia Mobbs.....Hitchin and then married Joseph Cunningham in about 1884, Grimsby, I think off top of my head. (I have been told he was a brutal bully who used to kick her legs and cause horrid bruises. After she was widowed from Hitchin(S) she was lost to me for a long time. Then I found a family with all the same named children, roughly same dated birthdays, and especailly my G Grandother Clara. The man was Alfred (someone or other, cant access my file from here today to check, but he was a knife grinder I think) this explains why they werent to be seen and I couldn't find births reg in the name of Cunningham for the who family of kiddies. They couldn't have been his because they married to late for that. There was James, Richard, May, Clara
(clara then married Reubin Price, brother of Samuel Price , who was my other Great g Dad, whos own daughter jane was to marry his brother Reubin son, also Reubin and (my grandad ) he was born in Grimsby 1905-06 , they had large family. Phew!! Complicated! lol Regard RosieM

JoanneM

06-02-2009, 08:35 PM

Hi Rosie, and welcome. :)

This lot seem to make 'complicated' their speciality. Have you also seen the other thread mentioning James Mobbs?

http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39223

This explanation is from the above thread, by Ann, our resident expert on these families.

Bethania Smith married William Gray and had a son William in 1822 as we know. She then married someone who was James Gray aka Mobbs - only he was actually, James Mobbs. Bethania and the entire family just used the alias Gray (her previous married name).
No wonder we couldnt find a trace of James Gray, he didnt exist!.
James Mobbs and Bethiah Smith were apparently married in 1816 (I know not where).
Of course William Gray then married her sister, Tabitha, .........

I think that I may have found Letitia's baptism, if you don't already have it, using the surname Smith, but her father on her marriage is James Mobbs. |banghead|

St. Peter, Claypole, Lincs
2 Dec 1847 – Letitia d/o William and Mary SMITH of Doddington Lane, tinker (I suspect that William Smith might actually be William Gray).

On the 1871 she gives her birthplace as 'Huffam'. There is a 'Hougham' very close to Claypole

If this is her then her birth reg is probably Dec qtr 1847, Newark (which covers Claypole).

The first name, birth date and birth place are spot on, but the surname and father are different??? :confused:

Don't suppose the Price's you mention are from Newark, are they?

Jo.

RONM

10-02-2009, 11:12 PM

HELLO, JUST LIKE TO SAY YOU SEEM TO HAVE ALOT OF INFO ABOUT MY FAMILY.MY GREAT GRAN AND GRANDAD WHERE SOPHIE AND JAMES.THEY BOTH DIED IN SCUNTHORPE IN 63 AND 53.I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW MORE OF WHAT YOU KNOW.BYE THE WAY ,WHEN I WAS SMALL I LIVED NEAR THE MARKET .

Ann65

14-03-2009, 07:44 PM

Always interested to hear more about branches of the Gray :) Welcome.

Ive been offline nearly 3 months now, boo hoo am SO glad to be back! and I can see theres a fair bit to catch up on here.

Sadly, it seems some folks just dont understand what we are doing here as this very thread has been written about in the latest journal of R&FTHS, by someone who claims not to understand how we have come to the conclusions we have about this family. Weve basically been accused of "guesswork and storytelling". Whilst all family history research involves following up clues and hunches and guesswork to an extent, we can all only base our families on what we discovere out there after all, I have been deeply hurt by the suggestion that its just "storytelling". The amount of work put into the Gray trees over the years has been a true labour of love, and Im certainly not alone in that, as there are many who have worked harder for longer than myself. I feel now that perhaps some of it was for nothing... :(

Mutley

14-03-2009, 09:53 PM

The amount of work put into the Gray trees over the years has been a true labour of love, and Im certainly not alone in that, as there are many who have worked harder for longer than myself. I feel now that perhaps some of it was for nothing... :(

Please don't feel that. Every fact we research, every assumption we make, based on those facts, every detail we put together to try and make a whole is worth doing.

We can only do the best we can manage to give our ancestors a life and from reading your posts I think you are doing well. Romany ancestors are far harder to figure than others.

Every time I read this thread I always think, "I wish mine were 'up your way' ". I would love to bat ideas back and forth with someone who cares as much as you do. |hug|

Ann65

15-03-2009, 12:26 AM

Thank you Mutley so much for that - it really does make a huge difference. Without people to "bat ideas" with, it would be SO much harder. And I really dont care if I find I am wrong in an assumption at a later date as long as I get it right in the end... you know that, I know you do. Again, Thanks :)

chaney999

15-03-2009, 09:16 AM

I am still stuck on the wilsons. Britannia Boss married William Wilson in 1848 in Hull and sadly britannia died in 1849 in Hull. The marriage cert clearly states that williams father was james wilson (hawker) and britannias father was riley boss (horse dealer). whilst i have just about everything on the boss side I am stuck with the wilsons, is that because it is such a common surname?

JoanneM

15-03-2009, 09:18 AM

There are also mistakes in what was written in the RTFHS article on this thread, and I know that they haven't been put forward here.

And the 'bat ideas' - this thread has been such a learning curve for me in how to research these families, and it has been great to be able to ask questions and offer suggestions.

Jo.

Ann65

15-03-2009, 03:39 PM

Sorry Chaney - not ignoring you! Im afraid I dont know nearly enough about the Wilsons myself, mind you that doesnt mean I wont go looking ;)

JoanneM

16-03-2009, 10:16 AM

OMG, just had to post (very excited |oopsredfa).

I've just received the death cert of Philistia Smith, who married Emily daughter of Moses and Eldria. I was going sideways trying to find out anything about my Delaraine (various spellings) who married Rabbi Smith, also a son of Moses and Eldria. (In 1881 Delaraine's daughter is at Dawsons Court listed as a daughter of Philistia and Emily, so I've always suspected a close relationship between Philistia and Delaraine).

Anyway, Philistia died 22nd Nov 1912 in a caravan in Dowmans Yard, Gainsborough of chronic bronchitis, aged 71 and a horse dealer, but the bit that has excited me is the informant:

"X The mark of Delaraine Smith sister".

Now, Philisita is the Supplista, or Jumping Jack, of the Gypsy's Parson, and the son of Elijah Boswell and Alice Smith.

And I had found a 14 year old Dilerany Smith who was daughter to Alice Smith on the 1871 census at Laneham, Notts.

Jo. |jumphappy

Mutley

16-03-2009, 05:51 PM

http://www.smileys4me.com/getsmiley.php?show=65Fantastic,

It always amazes me that people often do not send for death certificates because they think they will not learn anything new.

I have nearly always found out something worthwhile, so well done.

Ann65

16-03-2009, 06:10 PM

Fantastic Joanne!! well done, you finally sorted it out - and we have a bit more of the tree verified :) woop woop!!

RosieM

17-03-2009, 04:13 PM

Hi, im Rosie and Letitia Mobbs was my GG Grandmother.....she is listed with these Smiths you talk of on one of the census's...Do you have anything about her in your files...Daughter of Bethania..bethany..or palin betsy Ive heard...married James Mobbs or Gray he may have been...Anything wlecome...Letitia went on the have lots of children and my G Grandmother was one of them, Clara Cunningham (Most likely a Tindel...Tindle...as her mum lived with Alfred Tindle for a while...and the children took her married name of cunningham later on I'm pretty sure) Regards Rosie

Ann65

17-03-2009, 07:29 PM

Tis a long thread Rosie, but most of the answers are in there somewhere.....

RosieM

18-03-2009, 08:17 AM

Tis a long thread Rosie, but most of the answers are in there somewhere.....

Thanks Anne....I will get a look when I come out of hospital. God Bless

JoanneM

21-03-2009, 10:38 AM

Sarah Ann Smith, daughter of Delaraine Smith/Boswell, and possibly of Rabbi Smith, s/o Moses and Eldria married George William Major, George being the son of Sylvestia Smith.

George had been married before, to another Sarah Smith, and I’ve got this marriage cert this morning:

Oct 21 1879, Gainsborough, George Major (X), aged 21, bachelor, labourer, of Gainsborough, father Thomas Major, labourer to Sarah Smith (X), aged 23, spinster, of Gainsborough, father Moses Smith, labourer, witnesses were T. Wallhead and Maria Wallhead (X).

So George Major’s first wife was the aunt of his second (and I think she was a little older than 23 when she married ;)).

I had a look for the witnesses, and found a marriage in Lincoln in 1868 for Thomas Wallhead and Maria GRAY.

1871 – Castle Dykings Lincoln:
Thomas Wallhead head mar 23 cabinet maker St. Swithins Lincoln
Maria wife mar 20 Market Rasen Lincs
Thomas son 3 months St. Pauls Lincoln
(plus some Wallhead lodgers)

1881 – Sailor’s Alley, Bridge Street, Gainsborough
Thomas Wallhead head mar 32 cabinet maker Lincoln
Mary wife mar 30 Barton Lincs
Tom son 11 Lincoln

1891 – Bridge Street, Gainsborough
Thomas Wallhead head mar 40 joiner Lincoln
Maria wife mar 39 Lincoln
Tom son unm 21 joiner Lincoln
(plus a whole host of lodgers including the wonderfully named Africa Backaway)

Now Maria doesn’t seem sure where she is born, but in 1881 says Barton. And on the IGI there is a baptism on 10 July 1850 of a Maria Gray d/o Sidney and Violet.

I’ll try to find the marriage to see if I can confirm who Maria’s father is.

Also found a baptism at Bishop Norton Lincs on 1 Jun 1857 for Joshua s/o Moses and Eldery Smith, encamped in Atterby Lane, wanderers.

Slightly puzzled by this one as it is very close to their son Rabbi’s baptism at Nettleham on 11 January 1857. Also there is a son John aged 11 on the 1861 census at Reepham who gives his birthplace as Bishop Norton. Not sure if John and Joshua are the same person and either a) his age is wrong on the 1861 or b) he was baptised when he was already a few years old (but if that is the case then why not get him done at Nettleham at the same time as Rabbi?). Or are they two separate children. :confused:

Also found a baptism at St. Nicholas Newport Lincoln on Christmas Day 1864 for Rainie Smith d/o Moses and Eldera Smith of Lark Lane Lincoln, chairmender (born 14 December 1864)

Then St. Nicholas burials:
Eldera Smith of Lark Lane Lincoln buried 8 August 1865 aged 42
Rainie Smith of St. Paul’s Lincoln buried 12 August 1865 aged 9 months

Oh, and also found a baptism at Heapham just outside Gainsborough on 11 May 1860 for Righteous s/o Sylvia and Moses Mobbs, of no fixed abode, works with machine.

Jo. :)

Ann65

21-03-2009, 08:26 PM

Can see you have been very busy Jo, well done :)

babygirl101

02-05-2009, 05:55 PM

Im very interested in the fact that a Hartley appears there. Im darned sure I saw a Hartley somehow related somewhere along the Grays line - but I cant remember where for the life of me.

Ann & Jo you mentioned Hartley & co. I've come across this little lot on my travels this morning who are the same family but in 1881:-

Isaac aged 31 (instead of Israel) from Kirton

Selbourne (the original says Lilbourne which is who I was looking for) aged 30 from Crofton Yorks. She was Libhan in 1891.

Arkless aged 13 (who becomes Hartleys), I think

Lemuant aged 8 (I'm sure it actually says Tennant)

George Aged 6

Angeline aged 1

Ref is - RG11, piece 4487, Folio 158, page 32

I've found Lilbourne's parents on IGI , but she's named as male for some reason:-

Lilburn, parents Hartley Smith and Narcissa, born 1.11.1853, Crofton Yorkshire

but now I'm stuck as I can't find them on any census returns, can anyone help please.

Thanks as always

BG :)

JoanneM

02-05-2009, 08:36 PM

Isaac aged 31 (instead of Israel) from Kirton

Selbourne (the original says Lilbourne which is who I was looking for) aged 30 from Crofton Yorks. She was Libhan in 1891.

Arkless aged 13 (who becomes Hartleys), I think

Lemuant aged 8 (I'm sure it actually says Tennant)

George Aged 6

Angeline aged 1

Ref is - RG11, piece 4487, Folio 158, page 32

No other info on Lilbourne I'm afraid, but I strongly suspect that Isaac is actually Israel Smith, son of my Dennis Smith and Eleanor/Ellen Charlotte (and yes, Lemuant is Tennant).

Israel is on the 1861 at Thorne with his dad, Dennis (mum Eleanor/Ellen had married Sydney Boswell son of Elijah two years previously).
RG9; Piece: 3525; Folio: 13; Page: 19
(The young Tennant on there is the son of Caroline (bapt 7 Feb 1861 at Kirton in Lindsey, no father mentioned, son of Caroline Smith, tramp. He died very young, aged just 18 months; I have his death cert and his father is Sidney Smith, another son of Dennis' and the informant is a Susannah Smith - don't know who she is yet. Caroline is likely bapt 30 August 1839 in Bardney Lincs, daughter of Ennette (Unette?) Smith).

Israel is in Armley, Leeds in 1891 with his wife and a few more children. RG12; Piece: 3681; Folio 134; Page 10.

I think Lilbourne/Lilban died 1897 in Leeds (Lilburn Smith aged 47 Bramley Dec qtr 1897).

I've got Israel's birth cert - he was born 28th Jan 1849 at Willoughton, Lincs which is about 3 miles away from Kirton Lindsey.

Jo. :)

babygirl101

03-05-2009, 06:25 AM

Jo

Thanks for the additional bits of info, they seem to have managed to stay 'under the radar' quite a bit, don't they!!. I can't find them anywhere other than on these 3 census returns and mum must have been producing these boys between census returns as she doesn't appear anywhere, how very inconsiderate, lol. Oh well I'll keep looking.

BG :)

cherylstonebrid

03-05-2009, 10:16 AM

I am watching this thread with interest. I am looking for an Isaac Smith who initially looked likely to be this one! Sadly he isn't.

Isaac Smith born Leicestershire 1853.

Isaac is the father of Phoebe Smith 1874 who married Robert Smith, son of Hawthorn and Lydia in June 1893 at Edingley, Notts. He is described as a hawker on the marriage certificate

Phoebe maintains her place of birth as Sleaford in all the census returns to 1911. Likely bmd entry is Phoebe Ann Smith Peterborough March q 1874

The family appear on the 1891 census RG12 Piece 2707 Folio 64 Page 9 where Phoebe appears as Febarbth aged 16, with siblings Eliza 7, Mathilda 5 and Emma 2. Dad is Isaac aged 38, a grinder, born Leicestershire and Mum is Martha 39.

Isaac and Martha appear in Worksop in 1901 with the younger children.

Isaac Smith and Martha Lamin married in 1882 in Southwell. looking at the gap between siblings it looks likely that Martha was not Phoebe's mother.

I am hoping that someone might be able to tell me more.

Thanks

Cheryl

JoanneM

03-05-2009, 12:06 PM

Isaac and Martha appear in Worksop in 1901 with the younger children.

Isaac Smith and Martha Lamin married in 1882 in Southwell. looking at the gap between siblings it looks likely that Martha was not Phoebe's mother.

Hi Cheryl,

The Worksop 1901 entry is interesting - there's a Henry Gregory on there who is mentioned on another thread about Richard Smith.

Isaac and Martha look to be lodging in Bingham Notts in 1881 (RG11; Piece: 3380; Folio: 32; Page: 14):
Alice Raudall head wid 69 lace hand Sutton Notts
Mary g/dau unm 17 lace hand Bingham
Henry Clay nurse boy 2 Bingham
Isaac Smith lodger mar 25 cane worker chair bottomer Stathern Leics
Martha Smith lodger mar 24 hawker Grimsby
Christopher Smith lodger 6 months Hucknal Notts

But where's Phoebe, if that is them? :confused:

And is that Isaac in the Folkingham House of Correction in 1871 with a few other Smiths? RG10; Piece: 3313; Folio: 13; Page: 3

Jo. :)

cherylstonebrid

03-05-2009, 02:01 PM

Hi Jo

This certainly looks like Isaac and Martha. I think I might have married him off to the wrong Martha..... back to the drawing board on that one.

I have never come across Christopher before either. I'll take a look on bmd for him. Phoebe seems to be very elusive... I wonder if she had another name or was left with a family member somewhere.

I had seen the Folkingham House of Correction entry, but wasn't sure as I had no detailed POB for him. It's certainly a big possibility.

Many thanks for your help.

Cheryl

JoanneM

03-05-2009, 03:10 PM

There's a baptism for an Isaac Smith on the IGI that looks quite interesting, and would quite possibly bear out investigating further.

Isaac Smith bapt 30 Apr 1852 at Frolesworth Leics to James and Amborette Smith.

Also possible siblings:
James Smith bapt 1859 at Market Harbrough Leics to James and Amboretta Smith
Martha Smith bapt 1848 at Kirton in Holland Lincs to James and Ambaretta Smith
Emma Smith bapt 1845 at Long Bennington Lincs to James and Ambretta Smith
Keziah Smith bapt 1844 at Brant Broughton Lincs to James and Amboretta Smith (from freereg)
Harriet Smith bapt 1855 Great Gidding Huntingdon to James and Ambretta Smith (member submitted entry)

James and Ambretta are at Granby in Nottinghamshire in 1851 HO107; Piece: 2139; Folio: 242; Page: 22 (BG will recognise that entry - it's the one that possibly has Mark Beard on as Mark Smith s/o Joseph and Sarah :D)

Cheryl, I don't know if you have access to the census images, but if you don't let me know and I'll give you the transcriptions.

Jo. :)

cherylstonebrid

03-05-2009, 06:36 PM

Thanks Jo, I will look into that Israel. The names James and Ambretta are familiar somehow, but I can't think how or why. They are not on my tree..... yet.

babygirl101

05-05-2009, 09:24 AM

We appear to have cross posted - I've just seen your message regarding Sylvestia Smith. Thanks for all the extra info.

Sarah Ann Smith, daughter of Rabbi and Delorina Smith married George William Major, whose mother was Sylvestia Smith.

As far as I know the family is:

Dennis Smith (birth unknown) married Eleanor Charlotte who was bapt June 17th 1817 at Gamlingay. Their children are Fenwick, Sabina, Sidney (born c.1835 Nettleham), Sylvestia (born c.1838) and Tennant (born c.1840 Irby on Humber/Caistor).

Eleanor Charlotte is the daughter of John Charlotte (born c.1796 Gamlingay died April 3rd 1860 Kirton in Lindsey) and Sophia Smith (born c.1793 Leics, died Jan 6th 1887 Kirton in Lindsey). Their children are Eleanor, Sylvester (born c.1827 Folkingham), Elizabeth (born c.1828-1830 Billingham/Binbrook), Levanci (born c.1829 married Herilah/Riley Boswell and lived Scarborough), John (born c.1834 Lincoln) and James (born c.1835). The Edmund you have mentioned is a new name to me.

Sylvestia settled in Kirton in Lindsey as did her aunt Elizabeth Charlotte, both marrying into the Major family - Sylvestia married Tom Major and Elizabeth married John Major (it looks like Tom and John Majors father, also named John, was a bigamist and Tom is from one of his families and John the other, but that's another story altogether!) One of the witnesses on Sylvestia's marriage certificate was a Boswell (John Boswell I think, but will have to dig the certificate out to check).

I'm finding researching this line frustrating but so enjoyable. My family stayed in the same parish for generations so my husbands line is much more of a challenge, and I'm still trying to understand so much of it.

Jo

Looking back at this earlier post from you it seems to tie in with some of the current info re Dennis and co. Amongst all this lot I've found a Robert & Sabina who I'm assuming rightly or wrongly is the d/o Dennis that you mentioned:-

1881 - RG11. Piece 4487. Folio 159. Page 33
1891 - RG12. Piece 3682. Folio 28. Page 7
1901 - RG13. Piece 4214. Folio. 53. Page: 6

There's something worrying me about the Sophia who you said was married to John Chalott(e), you have given her as Sophia b.1793, Leicestershire and I thought that date looked familiar I have a Sophia Smith born 1793 Sharnford who married James Booth and who appears with him in 1861:-

RG9; Piece: 2303; Folio: 27; Page: 13

Do you have any more information about this Sophia. The Sophia you give as John Chalotte's wife appears in 1871 & 1881 but not before this as far as I can see.

1871: RG10. Piece 3427. Folio:56. Page: 31

1881: RG11. Piece 3283. Folio:34. Page: 40

Confused, as always

BG :confused:

JoanneM

05-05-2009, 11:50 AM

Jo

Looking back at this earlier post from you it seems to tie in with some of the current info re Dennis and co. Amongst all this lot I've found a Robert & Sabina who I'm assuming rightly or wrongly is the d/o Dennis that you mentioned:-

1881 - RG11. Piece 4487. Folio 159. Page 33
1891 - RG12. Piece 3682. Folio 28. Page 7
1901 - RG13. Piece 4214. Folio. 53. Page: 6

There's something worrying me about the Sophia who you said was married to John Chalott(e), you have given her as Sophia b.1793, Leicestershire and I thought that date looked familiar I have a Sophia Smith born 1793 Sharnford who married James Booth and who appears with him in 1861:-

RG9; Piece: 2303; Folio: 27; Page: 13

Do you have any more information about this Sophia. The Sophia you give as John Chalotte's wife appears in 1871 & 1881 but not before this as far as I can see.

1871: RG10. Piece 3427. Folio:56. Page: 31

1881: RG11. Piece 3283. Folio:34. Page: 40

Confused, as always

BG

Hi BG :),

Yes, I initially thought that the Sabina who is married to Robert Smith was the daughter of Dennis Smith and Ellen/Eleanor Charlotte (bapt as Eleanor but seems to use Ellen more oftens than not), but I have their marriage cert and she was Sabina Charlotte daughter of Edward, and Robert Smith was the son of the mysterious 'Dosher' Smith.

Ellen/Eleanor Charlotte had a brother Edmund bapt Feb 24 1822 at Hickling, Notts (no idea what became of him and whether he also went by the name of Edward). The only mention of an Edward Charlotte that I have found in this area is a baptism at Waddingham in Lincs, 8 Apr 1846 for John Charlotte son of Edward and Christophera, besom maker and vagrant. Whether or not this Edward was also the father of Sabina I don't yet know. :confused:

Dennis Smith and Ellen/Eleanor Charlotte baptised twins at Kirton in Lindsey on 8 Feb 1846, Fenwick (sometimes Phoenix) and Sabina Sarah Smith. Their abode at the time was the Kirton Bridewell |oopsredfa. I'm still trying to find out why they were in the Bridewell, but the court sessions I need to look at haven't been indexed by the records office yet - hopefully I'll be able to look at these soon. I still don't like the coincidences between Sabina Sarah Smith bapt 1846 at Kirton and Sabina Charlotte who was born c.1850 at either Wragby, Keel or Kirton, Lincs, but can't prove or disprove anything as yet.

Ellen/Eleanor Charlotte's father John was buried at Kirton in Lindsey on 2 Apr 1860. Her mother, Sophia (who I was told was a Smith by someone else researching the same line) was buried 6 Jan 1887 also in Kirton. Sophia is living with her daughter Elizabeth (who is married to John Major) in 1861, transcribed as Lafiah Charlotte RG9; Piece: 2397; Folio: 30; Page: 33, so can't be the same one married to John Booth.

Dennis Smith is on the 1861 and from that is born c.1820 Leicestershire. I think he dies at Hunslet workhouse in Leeds in 1879 and if that is him his date of birth is around 1799 (so only twenty years to search for and no firm birthplace for him |banghead|).

Only clues I have to Dennis' ancestry are that there is an Israel Smith of roughly the same age, who is in and around Lincolnshire at the same time, and who has at least three children with an Eliza (think this is Eliza Boswell, sister of Elijah, who then partnered with Henry Booth). These children are Dennis bapt 1844 Hameringham Lincs (same day as Beechenny, dau of Francis and Ann Clayton), Mary bapt 1847 Claxby Lincs (who I suspect goes on to marry John Charlotte, brother of Ellen/Eleanor) and Cinnamenta bapt 1848 Bolsover Derbys.

So an Israel who has a son named Dennis, and I have a Dennis who has a son named Israel. Might be a connection or I might be grasping at straws.........

And while I'm grasping at name-related straws, and as my Dennis had a son named Tennant, there is also a Tennant Smith who ends up in Gosberton, dying there in 1858 who is also roughly of an age with my Dennis. This Tennant is named as Dis Eagle Tenant Smith on his son Cornelius' baptism at Nether Heyford Northants in 1836, which I think places him as the Ezechiel Tennant Smith baptised at North Aston, Oxfordshire, in 1798, unfortunately with no parents named.

Oh, and almost forgot, another mention of (an) Edward Charlotte in connection with these folks. Sabina Charlotte and Robert Smith married 26 Dec 1898 at Upper Armley, Leeds (same day as Isaac Smith aged 22 s/o Cornelius and Hannah Charlotte aged 19, no father named). Then on 2 Jan 1899 Rowland Smith, s/o Sabina Charlotte and Robert Smith married Drucilla Smith d/o William, and again on the same day Isaiah Smith aged 42, s/o Wisdom and Hannah Charlotte aged 39 d/o Edward married. So Hannah is possibly/probably the sister of Sabina???

My head's in a spin now, hope can follow all that. :D

Jo.

Isaac Smith aged 22 s/o Cornelius - if I'm right Cornelius born 1846 Adwick le Street Yorks s/o Isaiah Smith and Hannah (Heaps?), Isaiah born 1820 Gosberton s/o James Smith and Unity, Unity being a d/o Wisdom Smith born 1763 Steeple Claydon Berks and Hannah.

Isaiah Smith age 42 s/o Wisdom and Tabitha Smith.

JoanneM

05-05-2009, 02:05 PM

Yes, I initially thought that the Sabina who is married to Robert Smith was the daughter of Dennis Smith and Ellen/Eleanor Charlotte (bapt as Eleanor but seems to use Ellen more oftens than not),

Correcting myself now, lol - she was bapt as Helena Charlotte in 1817 at Gamlingay, Cambs.

Jo. :)

babygirl101

09-05-2009, 06:45 AM

Apologies for delay in responding, as usual work gets in the way. I'll work through this lot and see what else I can come up with, but like you I don't like co-incidences either. I haven't come across 'Dosher' Simth on my travels, so that's a new one for me to add to my collection lol.

Many thanks Jo, and I'll get back to you as, when and if I find anything that might clarify this.

BG :)

Ann65

13-05-2009, 02:42 PM

heres one to throw into the mix regarding Wisdom:

Theodosia SMITH 23.8.1816 d/o Wisdom & Brownette, Gypsies, South Luffenham at the time of the Birth

JoanneM

13-05-2009, 09:18 PM

heres one to throw into the mix regarding Wisdom:

Theodosia SMITH 23.8.1816 d/o Wisdom & Brownette, Gypsies, South Luffenham at the time of the Birth

Hi Ann, :)

I've been playing with the record search pilot site on familysearch today and turned up a couple of baptisms myself.

From the first page of this thread:

Have never looked into the Charlotte Family. But a quick look at the IGI reveals John Charlotte and Sophia having:

Edmund c.1822 Hickling Nthants
Helena (Eleanor) c. 1817 Gamblingay Cam
John c.1834 Welton Le Marsh Lin
James c.1835 Scredington Lin

I've found another John, baptised 1838 at Hawerby cum Beesby in Lincs (I'd never heard of it before but looking at a map it's midway between Market Rasen and Grimsby) son of John and Sophia Charlott.

A look for James Charlotte turns up two possible James. The one born cir 1835 appears to be at 6 Cross Key Yard Mansfield, Notts, in 1881 (born cir 1832) and married to Etty b.cir 1852 Retford Notts. He is a Grinder.

A James Charlotte also turns up in 1871 b.cir 1849 Lincoln at Hunslet. He is married to a Mary and they are living with Elizah (Elijah?) Hawn (Heron??) and his wife Dinah. James also turns up on the 1851 census with his parents, Sistance Charlot and Lemontina Boswell at Ulceby Lin. Sistance claims a birthplace in Cambridgeshire, about 1820. This would put him in line to be another of Johns children, as almost certainly not all of them are on the IGI. This James was baptised 16.03.1849 Welton By Lincoln s/o Leiston Charlotte and Lamentina.

Even more confusingly, another James turns up b.cir 1826 Brigg, at Alverthorpe cum Thornes Yks in 1881. He is a peg maker, and married to Priscilla b.cir 1831 Cooper Bridge Hunts.

Also on the pilot site I've found a fourth James Charlotte to add in to the mix, one baptised 1843 at Binbrook to parents Edward and Rachel Charlotte.

I'll be checking these out further next time I'm at the records office. :D

Also, I've found a baptism for a son of James and Priscilla Charlotte at Kirton in Lindsey, Alfred baptised 26th Feb 1856. James was a besom maker.

Jo. :)

Ann65

14-05-2009, 01:08 AM

might have to play with the pilot site myself, if its turning up extras :D

JoanneM

14-05-2009, 08:10 AM

might have to play with the pilot site myself, if its turning up extras :D

Coverage is a bit patchy, but it does seem to have a lot of Lincolnshire records on it.

Should also have mentioned, the baptism for James and Priscilla Charlotte at Kirton was from the actual parish reg's, not the pilot site.

Jo. :)

JoanneM

14-05-2009, 10:44 AM

From page 3 of this thread:

The William c.1822 Ancaster who was the son of William and Bethania, as opposed to Tabitha, married Lumi/Laommi/Salome Ellen Boyling/Boiling d/o George and Joyce (Tansey).

Now George Boyling and Joyce settled in Nettleham before they died, and are both buried there, he in 1873, and she in 1885. Salome Ellen was christened in 1823 at Scampton Lincs, and repeatedly appears on census on her own. This lends credence to the theory that William Gray died young.

William and Lumi/Laommi/Salome Ellen had:

Elias/Eli b.cir 1840-45 Nettleham married Sarah A. Smith
Drusilla b.cir 1845 Ingham Lin married Walter Smith s/o William Smith and Mausolina Heron but she supposedly ran away and lived with a Pat Campbell. This appears to be late in life.
Lucy b.cir 1850 Sheffield (no other info)
Esther b.cir 1855 Barnsley Yks
Joycey b.cir 1858 Bradford, married 1) Heenan Herring (Heron) 1874 Barnsley Dist Yrks, and 2) William King - know a living descendant of this family.
Mary A. b.cir 1864 Wath Yks, married Thomas Humberstone

Just found a baptism for Elias in 1843 at Claxby Pluckacre s/o William and Salome Gray - another one to check out further. :D

Ann65

14-05-2009, 07:46 PM

Dont supose you happen to have an exact date? :D

Ann65

14-05-2009, 08:14 PM

Thats pretty cool. Only been looking 5 minutes and came up with Joshua Boswell s/o Trafalgar m.1943 Horncastle to Gladys Tuxford, d/o Vincent Bagot.

:D

JoanneM

15-05-2009, 08:25 AM

Dont supose you happen to have an exact date? :D

No, just said 1843, but I'll get you one as I'll check the parish reg's. :)

Jo.

JoanneM

16-05-2009, 04:56 PM

No, just said 1843, but I'll get you one as I'll check the parish reg's. :)

Jo.

There's no baptism for Elias showing up in the Claxby Pluckacre parish registers. :confused: There's two other Claxby's in Lincs and I've also checked those but no luck. Genuki seems to suggest also checking Moorby, so I did that, and again no sign of Elias. I did however find the following baptism at Moorby:

22nd July 1838 - Victoria d/o John and Harriet Gray, Gipsy encamped in the parish of Revesby

I'm going back to the records office in a few days so I'm going to check the Bishops Transcripts for Claxby Pluckacre before I give up all hope.

However, I did find the following:

Hawerby cum Beesby - 11 Mar 1838 - baptism of John s/o Sophia and John Charlott, Hawerby, gipsey

Binbrook St. Mary
19 Apr 1843 - baptism of James s/o Edward and Rachel Charlotte, Binbrook, besom maker
25 Apr 1843 - burial of James Charlotte, of Binbrook, infant
(Not sure at all on the name Rachel - the first letter could equally well have been a 'B' as an 'R', bit in the middle unclear, but it did seem to end with an 'el'.

Jo.

Ann65

17-05-2009, 04:24 AM

22nd July 1838 - Victoria d/o John and Harriet Gray, Gipsy encamped in the parish of Revesby

yep thats John Budd Gray and Harriet Williams.

Ann65

19-05-2009, 02:07 PM

I wonder if William Gray who married Salome/Ellen Boyling was also married to Mary?

This Mary was suposedly b.cir 1824 Colloughton?? (Coleorton?) Leic. My William Smith came from Coleorton, although a generation earlier.

Anyway this William Gray turns up on census saying he was born abt 1822-5 in Cambridgeshire, or Thurlby By Bourne, Lincs, or Bourne itself.

There dont appear to be very many candidates for this: William Gray c.1822 Ancaster is the prime suspect. Not least of all because Salome Ellen is always bombing around the countryside without him on the census's, and William & Mary are with Tabitha Smith and Moses Mobbs in 1861 at Barlborough Notts. They turn up again in 1871 at Attercliffe with the Francis Brown family.

As far as I can tell their children were:

Sylvester c.1842 Osbournby
Edengel Grace c.1845 Fulbeck Lin m.Nathaniel Smith b.cir 1844 Empingham/Uffingham Rut.,
Joseph b.cir 1847 Fulbeck
Dinah b.cir 1850 Waddington
Sarah b.cir 1852 "Bilmy" Lin
Richard b.cir 1854 Braunceston or Horncastle, married Filliday Smith
John b.cir 1856 Martin Lin, or Horncastle, appears once on census with wife Mary and all other times with wife Sarah
William b.cir 1859 Woodhall, Lin
Annie b.cir 1862 Thorpe, Lin
Snowelli/Snow E etc c.03.11.1864 Sth Leverton Notts apparently married William Herring in 1922 was twin sister of
Angelina c.03.11.1864 Sth Leverton Notts married Thomas Farricker 1882 Lancs
Cenementa b.cir 1868 Walley, Derbys.

JoanneM

19-05-2009, 03:58 PM

I wonder if William Gray who married Salome/Ellen Boyling was also married to Mary?

This Mary was suposedly b.cir 1824 Colloughton?? (Coleorton?) Leic. My William Smith came from Coleorton, although a generation earlier.

Anyway this William Gray turns up on census saying he was born abt 1822-5 in Cambridgeshire, or Thurlby By Bourne, Lincs, or Bourne itself.

There dont appear to be very many candidates for this: William Gray c.1822 Ancaster is the prime suspect. Not least of all because Salome Ellen is always bombing around the countryside without him on the census's, and William & Mary are with Tabitha Smith and Moses Mobbs in 1861 at Barlborough Notts. They turn up again in 1871 at Attercliffe with the Francis Brown family.

Could well be. :) It does make sense, with him travelling with Tabitha.

Just looking through my notes for other references to William Gray.

There's a baptism in Waddington 4 Feb 1867 for Richard s/o William Gray, gipsy encamped in parish of Bracebridge (no mother mentioned).

William Gray and Mary Ann Elliott were witnesses to the wedding of Phoenix Gray and Lydia Newborough/Newberry in Navenby 25 Nov 1862.

Also, another wedding at Wellingore, which might also be a candidate for William and Mary, 10 Jan 1842 William Gray, minor, potter, s/o Charles Gray also potter to Mary Smith, minor, d/o William Smith potter, witnesses Bathuel and Francis Smith (3 months later the Phoenix mentioned above was baptised just down the road from Wellingore in Harmston, so does that indicate the same family? :confused: Wondering if this William is another brother of Charles, father of Phoenix? And is Bathuel Bathwell?).

Just re-reading what I have written re. the wedding in Wellingore and your post above - Mary d/o William Smith, your William Smith being a generation earlier............

Jo. :)

Ann65

19-05-2009, 06:16 PM

Just looking through my notes for other references to William Gray.

There's a baptism in Waddington 4 Feb 1867 for Richard s/o William Gray, gipsy encamped in parish of Bracebridge (no mother mentioned).

Richard Gray was the son of William & Mary Ann and he married a Millicent Gray who was daughter of Tom & Abigail - she being another child of Charles and Lydia, and he being Tom Gray s/o my Christopher (you could go mad couldnt you?)

William Gray and Mary Ann Elliott were witnesses to the wedding of Phoenix Gray and Lydia Newborough/Newberry in Navenby 25 Nov 1862. .

This is William Gray s/o Charles Gray & Lydia Elliott and he was indeed Phoenix Brother. Bother brothers were born in the early 1840s, and Mary Ann Elliott became Williams wife.

Also, another wedding at Wellingore, which might also be a candidate for William and Mary, 10 Jan 1842 William Gray, minor, potter, s/o Charles Gray also potter to Mary Smith, minor, d/o William Smith potter, witnesses Bathuel and Francis Smith (3 months later the Phoenix mentioned above was baptised just down the road from Wellingore in Harmston, so does that indicate the same family? :confused: Wondering if this William is another brother of Charles, father of Phoenix? And is Bathuel Bathwell?).

This is where I had originally tentatively placed this William, as s/o Charles Gray of Meldreth (Cam) and Charlotte on the grounds that William claimed at his daughter Sylvesters baptism to be of Meldreth.

This really is interesting - Mary Smith d/o William with witnesses like Bathuel (almost certainly Bathwell) and Francis Smith (dont forget several of Francis Browns children were baptised as Smith!)

The reinforcement of Bathwell Smiths presence with this family makes me think I was originally correct in thinking he came from the Charles Gray line.

Just re-reading what I have written re. the wedding in Wellingore and your post above - Mary d/o William Smith, your William Smith being a generation earlier............

Jo. :)

I can certainly say I dont believe I have found the whole of William & Ann Smiths family.
They were married in 1815 in Notts, and had my 3xgreat gran Maria in 1817, she of course married Christopher Gray. Then there was a Joseph in 1819 (who MAY have married a Jemima), Hannah in 1822 married Wisdom Smith, Thomas my 2xgreat grandad cir 1825 married Mary Brown b.cir 1831, Ive been told there was an Edwin b.cir 1829 (but I have never found him) then Ledday 1832, John 1836, Christopher 1838, and Matilda 1841.

Another clue to follow up. :)

ho hum, if William Gray is Charles son, why is it that William Gray s/o William never seems to be around, and why are William & Mary with Tabitha in 1861? there must be more to this than I can see at the moment.

Ann65

19-05-2009, 06:25 PM

ho hum, if William Gray is Charles son, why is it that William Gray s/o William never seems to be around, and why are William & Mary with Tabitha in 1861? there must be more to this than I can see at the moment.

Just re-read all this ----

OH I get it!! William Smith and Ann Elliott had a daughter Hannah in 1822 married Wisdom Smith, and they are also on that census - so IF William Gray DID marry Mary Smith d/o the same William Smith then they would be visiting her sister!!

and what did I say way back in post 676641190?
"This Mary was suposedly b.cir 1824 Colloughton?? (Coleorton?) Leic. My William Smith came from Coleorton, although a generation earlier."

:D

Ann65

19-05-2009, 06:29 PM

JoanneM

19-05-2009, 06:32 PM

Ive been told there was an Edwin b.cir 1829 (but I have never found him) then Ledday 1832, John 1836, Christopher 1838, and Matilda 1841.

Oh, I've found Edwin. :D Waddington, 24 Apr 1829, Edwin s/o William and Ann Smith, of Waddington, horse dealer.

Still trying to get my head round the rest.................. :)

Jo.

JoanneM

19-05-2009, 06:34 PM

Ann65

19-05-2009, 06:44 PM

Jo is this an early birthday pressie or something? :D many thanks for those snippets.

JoanneM

19-05-2009, 06:47 PM

Jo is this an early birthday pressie or something? :D many thanks for those snippets.

Glad I can help you, for a change. It's normally you helping me out. :D

Ann65

19-05-2009, 06:55 PM

JoanneM

19-05-2009, 06:57 PM

Also means we've lost William s/o William Gray.............

JoanneM

19-05-2009, 07:02 PM

It certainly lends credence to the idea that Bathwell Smith and William Smith were fairly closely aligned doesnt it? And the Browns, they seem to be tentatively just out of reach at the moment. I think Francis Brown married Rosetta Smith and thats why they used both surnames - just gotta work out now exactly who they all were and how they fit together.

It also reinforces the link between Christopher Gray supposed s/o Thomas & Charlotte and Charles Gray & Charlotte. Either it was an error and should have read Charles, or Charles was Toms brother and was Charlottes "permanent" hubby.

29 Apr 1826 – Branston – baptism of Joseph s/o Charles and Charlotte Gray of Mildred (Meldreth?) Cambridgeshire, vagrant
14 May 1826 – Ruskington – baptism of Violet d/o Rosetta Smith, travelling woman

Just two weeks and 11 miles between the two.

Ann65

19-05-2009, 07:07 PM

Yes, we dont know where William Gray who married Salome Ellen was, maybe he was hiding in her tent!!

Right now, though this particular line of enquiry proves that it is always worth posting ideas on boards because its been a major breakthrough with my own personal lineage, its corrected what could easily be construed from the census, and shows just how easy it is to get it all horribly wrong. (Plus the convolutions of the average Romany family could send you insane if you arent very very careful ;) )

Yep got both those refs - I believe thats the Violet who married Sidney Gray and had Messiah, Rosetta, her mother could very well be the Rosetta married Francis Brown, AND is the same person who appears on census with Sidney Gray after Violets apparent demise.

Charles & Charlotte had a whole bunch of kids, but beware there were two generations of Charles & Charlottes!

JoanneM

19-05-2009, 07:16 PM

Discovered a bit more on my OH's people today, too.

I'll update you in a bit. :)

Ann65

19-05-2009, 07:18 PM

Charles & Charlotte

Apparently from Meldreth Cam - there is a note in Meldreth PR dated 1830 stating that they had an extract from St James Bristol PR recording the marriage of Charles Gray and Charlotte Hirss 28.05.1804. (What her real surname was heaven knows!)

Known offspring:
Charles b.cir 1811 Bristol married Lydia Elliott (sister of Ann)

Joseph c.1826 Branston married Mary b.cir 1831 Skillington

Mary Ann c.1823 Witham On The Hill

There is also another possible:
Thomas b.cir 1803 Bristol married Sarah b.cir 1813 Willoughby On The Wolds (Elliott territory!)

Charles & Lydia had:

John b.cir 1833 Anwick
Abraham c.1835 Sth Kyme married Harriet Smith d/o Matthew/Bathwell? & Charlotte
Clarke b.cir 1838 married Mary Ann Gray d/o Christopher
Frederick b.cir 1839 Tattershall married Mary
Charles b.cir 1839 married Charlotte Elliott b.cir 1839 Castle Bytham
William b.cir 1842 "Bentry" or Burton married Mary Ann Elliott b.cir 1839 Waddington
Phoenix c.1842 Harmston married Lydia Newberry/Newborough.

Ann65

19-05-2009, 07:19 PM

look forward to that :)

JoanneM

19-05-2009, 07:59 PM

I knew that Charles born c.1811 was supposed to be born in Bristol, but I hadn't realised about the marriage or Thomas. That's a bit of a distance.

What I've found out concerns Dennis Smith who had kids with Eleanor/Ellen Charlotte. He's been bugging me for ages 'cos I couldn't find much on him at all, and he's my OH's direct ancestor, so one of the people I'm most keen on finding out about.

Anyway, Dennis had a son born in 1849 at Willoughton named Israel. And I came across an Israel Smith who had at least three children with an Eliza, and one of these was named Dennis. So I though there had to be a link.

I found a burial for an Israel Smith, aged 30, a gipsy at Revesby on 17 Jul 1848 which fit. I got the death cert for this today - Israel died 16th Jul, aged 30, of 'mortification of left thigh', he was a clothes peg and basket maker, and the informant was Dennis Smith, present at the death, Bitchhill.

Another of Dennis' sons was Sidney, bapt 15 Nov 1835 at Nettleham, but their abode was given as Bitteswell near Lutterworth, Leicestershire (so I think 'Bitchhill' is Bitteswell).

So Dennis' son who was born a few months later was named for the Israel who died.

I still don't know what the relationship between Dennis and Israel was, I suspect they are brothers, but still need to find some more proof.

Israel is likely the one bapt Mar 2 1817 at Broughton Astley, Leics, s/o Silvara, and Eliza is, I think, a Boswell. She goes on to have children with Henry Booth. I thought she was supposed to be a sister of Elijah's, but it looks more likely she's the one bapt May 27 1816 at Bolsover d/o Lucy.

Israel and Eliza's children were:

Dennis bapt 24 Mar 1844 Hameringham (same day as Beechenny d/o Francis and Ann Clayton)
Mary bapt 28 Feb 1847 Claxby (day after Deleuda d/o Sidney and Violet Gray)
Cinnamenta bapt 29 Oct 1848 Bolsover

Dennis goes on to have children with a Jemima Smith born c.1840 in Wainfleet, and I think Mary goes on to partner John Charlotte, brother to Ellen.

So I haven't proved the relationship between Dennis and Israel, but I have proved a link between them, which is one more piece of the jigsaw in place. :D

Ann65

19-05-2009, 08:07 PM

Interesting - not only because the name Cinamenta crops up again. It isnt something you think would come to mind easily so I guess there must be a relationship amongst all these Smiths...

Ann65

19-05-2009, 08:08 PM

by the way, that Beechenny Clayton is that the one that ended up being Beechenny Smith?
(forgot off top of head who shes married to know I have it down somewhere tho)

JoanneM

19-05-2009, 08:22 PM

by the way, that Beechenny Clayton is that the one that ended up being Beechenny Smith?
(forgot off top of head who shes married to know I have it down somewhere tho)

Not sure - I've been getting tangled up with a whole load of Beechenny's/Bechina's/Beech Annies.

Dennis had another son named Tennant, and there is a Tennant (of an age to be brother or the like of Dennis) who ends up in the Gosberton area. His wife is a Bechina etc. born c.1806'ish

They have Cornelius 1836 Nether Heyford Northants, Reuben c.1839 (who marries Mary Ann d/o Richard Smith), Perly 1840 Spratton Northants, Ozra/Asrey 1848 Gosberton Lincs and Sitarini 1853 Navenby.

There's a death for Tenant in 1858 (as Tenance Smith aged 65).

On son Cornelius' baptism he's named as Dis Eagle Tenant Smith, so I think he's the Ezechiel Tennant Smith bapt 1798 at North Aston Oxf with no parents named.

JoanneM

19-05-2009, 08:25 PM

Also Diana d/o Bechina Booth, on travels bapt 7 Sep 1836 at East Allington Lincs.

Was the Ann who married Francis Clayton, mother of Beechenny a Booth, do you know? I've found a marriage between Francis Clayton and Ann Booth 18 Aug 1828 at Cossington Leics on the IGI.

Ann65

19-05-2009, 08:27 PM

Yeh, Tennants wife thats the one I have.

Ann65

19-05-2009, 08:28 PM

Not so far delved into the delights of the Booths and Claytons.

Now why do I have a Nathaniel b.cir 1850 Waddington listed for Tennant & Beechenny?

JoanneM

19-05-2009, 08:33 PM

Now I have him to a Tennat and Kesiah Smith.

JoanneM

19-05-2009, 08:34 PM

1861 – Beeley, Derbys (two tents on Beeley Moor which removed on Monday morning the 8 April)
William Clayton head mar 36 chair bottomer and clothes peg maker Dusson Northants
Beachyanna wife mar 36 Shilton Leics
Edward son 13 Baslow Derbys
Sarah dau 7 Alfreton Derbys
Diana Booth sis-in-law 24 Illington Lincs
Mary Booth g/dau 6 Breedon nr Wilbourne Leics
Eliza Booth g/dau 8 Greasley Common nr Ashby de la Zouch Leics
Caroline Booth g/dau 2 Derby
William Clayton son 2 Wirksworth Derby
Henry Booth head mar 45 clothes peg maker and chair bottomer nk
Eliza wife mar 47 nk
Cinementa dau 11 nk
Matilda dau 9 nk
Calendine son 6 nk
George son 3 nk

That's the Eliza who was with Israel Smith, now with Henry Booth, and the Diana who was bapt East Allington so Beachyanna Clayton must be nee Booth and named for her mother.

Ann65

19-05-2009, 08:39 PM

HMMM. my brain hurts JO...............

JoanneM

19-05-2009, 08:44 PM

Mine too. :)

Think I might call it a night and try to wind down.

It's been fun, though. :D

Ann65

19-05-2009, 08:44 PM

Likewise :) xxx

cherylstonebrid

19-05-2009, 09:00 PM

Not sure - I've been getting tangled up with a whole load of Beechenny's/Bechina's/Beech Annies.

Dennis had another son named Tennant, and there is a Tennant (of an age to be brother or the like of Dennis) who ends up in the Gosberton area. His wife is a Bechina etc. born c.1806'ish

They have Cornelius 1836 Nether Heyford Northants, Reuben c.1839 (who marries Mary Ann d/o Richard Smith), Perly 1840 Spratton Northants, Ozra/Asrey 1848 Gosberton Lincs and Sitarini 1853 Navenby.

There's a death for Tenant in 1858 (as Tenance Smith aged 65).

On son Cornelius' baptism he's named as Dis Eagle Tenant Smith, so I think he's the Ezechiel Tennant Smith bapt 1798 at North Aston Oxf with no parents named.

Ezekial Tenant Smith Bp 3/6/1798 married to Bushani/Beachenny/Beachannah is the son of Samuel Bp 9/6/1773 Wolston, WKS and Sophia, married 3/6/1793 Sharnford, Leics, witness Absolom. They also seem to have children Keziah 1829, Nehemiah, 1832 and Spiretta 1842

Cheryl

Ann65

19-05-2009, 09:07 PM

Most sorry Jo - Nathaniel is INDEED s/o Tennant & Keziah.

Gawd there is a lot a lot a lot of Tennants on A******* isnt there? much to follow up on but 2night Im off to bed - catch up soony. A xxx

Ann65

19-05-2009, 09:09 PM

Hi Cheryl, yr name sounds very familiar, and I see you have Ingleton in your interests? would that be Hawthorn Smith family? Pls forgive me I have had a long day going beddies now, but will happily welcome anymore info tomorrow. - Thanks for that bit of input, Ive seen the Sam/Sophia names on the IGI something to follow up tomorrow.

A

cherylstonebrid

19-05-2009, 10:21 PM

Hi Ann

Hawthorn was my GG grandfather, so I am very much a Smith. I am finding out more about them every day! Thanks to all the helpful people here.

Cheryl

JoanneM

20-05-2009, 01:38 PM

Thanks Cheryl. :)

teresajane

01-07-2009, 09:43 AM

hi can ou give me any info on the winter side of things struggling for info thanks. this is all so interesting .

thaks teresa

SheHen23

02-07-2009, 10:30 AM

Hi everybody. Have any of you Smith family researchers come across a marriage between a Smith (no idea on first name) and a John Finney. His birthdate would be approximately 1880 and I believe he was born in Cheshire.
I am pretty sure I have found him on the 1891 census aged 12 but I can't find any details of a spouse other than a vague memory of his wife being a Smith.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

cherylstonebrid

07-07-2009, 09:12 PM

Have you tried The FreeBMD website? There are few John Finneys married to Smiths on there.

Jun 1910

Finney John William to Mary Lily Smith Prestwich 8d 475

Dec 1910

Finney John H to Alice Smith Mt.Bosworth 7a 169

Marriages Dec 1933

Finney John H Smith to Shirley Smith Warwick 6d 1993

Age wise these are the ones that seem to fit but there are others before and after.

Cheryl

RosieM

21-03-2010, 01:17 PM

Hi ev1, Reading with interest all the posts on this thread. Im actually related to Letitia Mobbs, daughter of James and Bathyany/Bertha/Bethania. She was my G G Grandmother. Have found so much info from the posts & will hopefully be able to move forward now. Travelling families are so hard to trace. I knew there was a link between the mobbs and Smiths....on the 1861 census Letitia is with them (I had thought Elizebeth may have actually been her mother) but looking at the info on this site I can rethink. I do have a christening or such at Hougham 1845 Mar for Letitia Moggs, dau of the above but can find no birth for her in that name nor via connections...she gives newark or grantham? Found her with Moses Smiths lot again in1871...but feel after that she may be hooked up (certainly cant find a marriage) with Alfred Tindall in the 1881 census (yet to prove this is my Letitia) a lot rests on who is the father of her daughter Clara (my G G M) born in 1801 or so. The rumour of another Clara that died now looks like fact(1871 cesus to early to be my G GM. If any one needs any info I have please ask. And thanks for the help. Ps It really wasnt only gypsies that married/ carried on with people in their own group. Times were similar for many poor people i hear. RosieM

RosieM

21-03-2010, 01:21 PM