West Indian Exotic Dancers??

[casacucus@hotmail.com]

Deleted thread

[Copper]

First of all have you got a birth certificate for Christopher? This would give the maiden name of his mother. If you are struggling to find his birth registration in the GRO index tell us what you know from the census and I am sure that we will try and find the registration for you.

If this family moved around a fair amount parish records are not the way to go yet.

[casacucus@hotmail.com]

Thanks for replying. According to the census Christopher was born in either Notting Hill or Beds. in 1864. I cannot find a birth for him (only a Christopher from Yorks). I have his marriage certificate to Margaret Horsnell in Dec 1883 at St Georges Catholic Church, St Saviour. He lived at 25 Little Suffolk Street. His father is Thomas Selby an itinerant musician which lines up. My dad said they were in a fairground but I have tried the census lists for travellers and there is nothing. A birth would be wonderful.

[Copper]

Hmm I have searched the GRO birth index 1863 - 1865. I checked for all of the obvious spelling variations - Selbey, Sellbey, Selbie etc and I only found the one in Northallerton in 1865 Sep.

Have you searched for any of Christopher's siblings? If we could find one of them then their certificate would at least give you the maiden name of their mother.

If all else fails you could order the one Christopher that we have found. If you do this via the local register office you can stipulate that you only want the certificate if the father is Thomas.

[Terry]

Have you tried http://www.thegalloper.com/ lots of info about circuses and the staff

[casacucus@hotmail.com]

Other Children Of Thomas and Mary Ann Selby from 1971 Census
(H)annah-1843-Maidstone
Mary Ann-1852-Wadworth (presume Wandsworth or Walworth)
Daniel-1857-Warminster
Sarah-1858-Limehouse
Thomas-1859 Norfolk or 1862 Limehouse
Eliza/Elizabeth-1867-Wandsworth
John-1868-Deptford
They obviously did move around a lot. I've also found a death of a Christopher Selby in Camberwell in 1910 age 42 but this certificate would not tell me anything about his mum, if it is him?
His son is Charles Selby b. abt 1898 (Can't find his birth either), my grandad. But I have his marriage certificate in 1919 and it says father is deceased.
I live abroad and only have the internet or kind people.
Thanks folks
Just going off for a gallop!!!

[Copper]

The more I search the more confusing it gets!

In 1861 the family were living in Eastfield Street, Limehouse, London
RG9/1286 Fol 50
Thomas J Selby , head age 33 was a Shipwright, born Lancashire
Mary A his wife age 27 was a bootbinder, born Surrey
Anna A his dau, age 15 was a dancer, born Middlesex, Westminster
Mary A his dau, age 8 was a dancer, born Middlesex, Stepney
Daniel, his son, age 5 was a dancer, born Lambeth
Thomas, his son, age 4 months, born Limehouse
Sarah, his dau, age 3 was a dancer, born Kent

In 1851 the family were in Newington
Not one of them has a birth place!
Thomas was age 26 and a musician
Mary was age 19
Anne was age 5
Elizabeth was age 1

This means that Mary would have been 14 when she had Anne.

I still can't find a birth registration that I can say is one of yours for certain.
I was convinced that the family in 1861 were not yours until I saw that the children were dancers.

I will have another search later after dinner.

[casacucus@hotmail.com]

Thank you so much, you found them in 1851, clever you...
But aren't they illusive and quite fascinating as I presume they were black or half caste to be exotic dancers (dictionary says exotic means foreign). In 1871 (H)anna and Mary (Anne) were married and wives of mariners, though still with Selby as their name. Confusion all round but great fun!

[Copper]

I find it interesting that Thomas and Mary have "normal" jobs in 1861.

When I found them in 1851 it was an index and I have now managed to see the actual page. They were listed as Selsby! They can be found here
HO107/ 1566 Fol 434A

Their daughter Elizabeth was in fact 18 months old not 1 year in this census. I have tried to find the births of all of the children now but often there are too many to say that any one is yours. I thought that Daniel would be easier to find as that is not such a common name but I still could not find one born in the correct area. I then thought that with Thomas being 4 months old in the 1861 census I should be able to find him but there is no Thomas registered in Limehouse.

Sarah was 3 in 1861 and born Kent. I did find this in the GRO birth index
1858 Mar Sarah Elizabeth Selby, Tunbridge 2a 406

How do you feel about ordering that certificate and hoping that she is yours?

[casacucus@hotmail.com]

I am pleased to order the certificate. I cannot believe you have found them in 1851. I am so excited. Of all the variations of surname I have tried I did not think of Selsby for Selby. I realise that they were illiterate because on Christopher's marriage certificate it had the mark of Christopher Selby. Therefore, I suppose they did not know exactly when and where they were born but they are not even consistant! If this certificate gives me a name I will be over the moon. Interesting that it is Sarah Elizabeth as my aunt was Elizabeth. From what my old dad said Christoper's children were another Christoper (adopted by a money lender called Murphy???), Mary Ann, Fred and my grandad Charles who had the Elizabeth. Cannot find any of them either but maybe, just maybe, you have opened another door for me.
The sun is still shining here in Portugal where I live, we are at 30 degrees at this moment and I feel really happy. Thank you. xx

[Copper]

I hope I found the correct Sarah. Please let me know when you get the certificate. I enjoyed the challenge :)

[casacucus@hotmail.com]

I thought this afternoon, before I order the certificate I would try to track Sarah born in Tonbridge. She is in the 1961 Census with her parents Sophia and Harrison whilst my little love was doing the dance of the seven veils!!!
Try Try Try again!

[Copper]

Oh no!!!! Good job you checked before you ordered the certificate. That really was the only Sarah registered in Kent for the correct time frame. I am beginning to think that they did not register a single birth. Fines were introduced about 1873 for not registering a birth but then as they flitted about who was going to fine them anyway?!


I will have to give the little dancing darlings some more thought. Maybe somebody else will have some ideas.

[casacucus@hotmail.com]

Thanks, sometimes another persons view can help and maybe you are right that they did not register births. However, if Mary Ann's son and grandson were married in St George's Catholic Church am I right in saying they were non conformist and it was illegal to register prior to 1837? Also that boys could marry at 14 and girls at 12 years old. Though, the children's births are after that date they may have been frightened of the authorities, especially if Mary Ann was West Indian. But do you think they would have baptised or confirmed the kids and does that mean back to finding the Parish records? Anybody fancy a guess as to which ones?

[Copper]

I have checked and fines were introduced in 1875.

All I can think of is that you check the index for all of your names, then check the census to see if they are with other parents. You would also have to check the death index to make sure that they did not die young. In other words a long job. If you still can't find any of them then it is a failry safe bet to say that they were not registered.

I know in the early days of registration that some people thought a baptism was good enough so they did not register the birth. As your lot were dancing around the country they may have baptised the children in their parish church. Perhaps they had a base and if you knew where that was then that would be the parish to start checking baptisms.

Perhaps Thomas and Mary Ann never married. They could then be registered in the mother's name which of course we don't know!

I don't know much about the Catholic Church so I can't really answer your questions. I do know that between 1754 and 1837 all marriages had to take place in a Church of England parish church. The exceptions to this were Jews and Quakers. After this people could marry in a civil ceremony. It was not until 1898 that people could marry in buildings used by Roman Catholic or non-conformists but they had to be registered for marriages.

Perhaps you need to ask on another thread about Catholic baptisms etc giving the years that you are interested in. Somebody here will probably know the answer. I thought that you had to be confirmed before you married in a Catholic Church but I might be wrong.