Bastardy Bonds

[busyglen]

Can anyone give me a pointer please?

I am still struggling to find the parents of my John JARVIS, (father named as John GREEN on his marriage cert.) but am really stuck!

John Jarvis was born in 1823 in Dunton, Bucks. (according to the 1851 Census in London). I purchased the PRs for Dunton from Bucks. FHS, but no trace of him there. So, following other members advice on this forum, I have been trying to find out where (if any) the Bastardy Bonds would be held. I looked on Genuki, and even asked the Bucks. FHS, but they haven't replied. Where should I go to get this information?

I realise that I am clutching at straws, but it's a case of eliminating one thing at a time.

John married Emma Robbins in 1842 in Buckingham, so he stayed in the County until after they were married. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the 1841 Bucks. will be out soon (please Rod) to see if I can glean any more information.

Glenys

[Peter Goodey]

The Society of Genealogists' library catalogue shows two publications from Bucks FHS -

1. Buckinghamshire Settlement Papers : Index of Names


An index to settlement papers & miscellaneous papers filed with them, covering marriage bonds, banns, removal orders & bastardy bonds. However, the index does not indicate which type of document is held for a particular name.

2. Supplementary index of settlement certificates, removal orders, bastardy bonds, apprentices etc.


Perhaps they might be of use to you?

Otherwise, Bucks Records Office would seem to be the place to try (presumably that's where the documents are)

[Mythology]

Glenys, other than saying, yes, the county record office seems the logical place to try, I won't comment on the Bastardy Bonds - Peter knows tons more than I do about them.

The 1841 census ...

Health warning!
This is from a quick bash at what you can get at free on a well-known site by using the link from TNA. It is by no means conclusive and a rummage through the actual thing may turn up something.

I think he's using his father's name and has already left home so it won't tell you anything useful. |banghead|

John's born about 1823. Might appear as that, or, if rounded down as per instructions might appear as "abt 1826" (15) or, if thick like some of my lot who didn't read the instructions properly and rounded their ages up, as "abt 1821" (20). Basically we need some between "abt 1821" and "abt 1826".

John Jarvis, living Buckinghamshire:
abt 1766
abt 1801
abt 1839
abt 1840
abt 1840

All way out.

(continues)

[Mythology]

He married in Buckingham 1842. Could he already have been living outside the county in 1841 but had rellies there?

Jarvis, any forename, living Buckinghamshire, parish Buckingham:
No results

Doesn't look as if that's the answer.

OK - is he using dad/s name? As he married in Buckingham 1842, is he there as John Green in 1841?
John Green living Buckinghamshire, parish Buckingham:
one result ...
abt 1826

Right-ho - is he *with* his father then?
Green, any forename, living Buckinghamshire, parish Buckingham:
only two others ...
Ann abt 1761
Henry abt 1816

So, this John Green is not with his father.
He *could* be with one or both of the above, but as John shows up as born Buckinghamshire and the other two do not, I suspect there's no connection, and, obviously by the ages, neither of them is his parent anyway.
I would *guess* that this John Green is already out in the great wide world, at work somewhere, and I would *guess* that he's your boy, so be prepared for disappointment.

Sorry! :(

[busyglen]

Many thanks Peter, that information is a great help. I always seem to get lost when trying to work out where to go for what! I originally thought of Bucks Record Office, but thought I would go to the FHS first. Unusual for them, I didn't get a reply, although they promised to send me a copy of something a while ago, and never did, so perhaps they have been inundated.

Again thanks. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Myth! |biggrin|

Thanks for having a shot at this, it's nice to get someone else's take on it, and as you have a `wayward' lot, your ways of thinking are different than mine. ;)

My `feelings' are that John Jarvis was born illegitimate, to parents unknown, in Buckinghamshire. I think that:

a) He took his mother's name of Jarvis.

b) Somewhere along the line, he knew he was born in Dunton, hence he gave this as POB on the 1851 Census. The 1861 Census for St. George, Han. Squ. is `missing/mislaid' so I cannot check that, and unfortunately he `fell over' in 1870, so no clues there.

c) There were families of Green living in various places near to Dunton, and I also found a few John Greens, but nothing that jumps out and hits me!

d) When he married Emma Robbins (born Buckingham) in 1846, he gave his age as 19, and he was a Soldier. In what regiment I have no idea. When he died in 1870, his age was given as 47, so this supports birth around 1823.

e) They had a child in 1846 ( 4 yrs after they married, possibly because he was away as a soldier) who was born in Buckingham. So...up to now he seems to have been staying in his birth County.

f) In 1850 they are in St. Geo. Hanover Squ. and he is a Policeman and a girl Emma is born. They are also found here on the 1851 Census, and he dies at the same address in 1870.

Cont..

[busyglen]

Cont....

So, I have come to the conlusion that:

He knew his father was John Green, and that is why I am on the Barstardy Bond trail, just in case.

Or..as I have found with another ancestors line, he didn't know who his father was, and just made one up for the marriage cert....but, that doesn't quite ring true, otherwise he would have said John Jarvis, not confuse the issue by stating John Green.

The marriage cert. clearly says John Green.

Sigh!!

So, it looks from what you are saying, that I might not get much joy from the 1841! Still, I shall get it anyway, as I want to check Emma out as well, as I believe she was shown as Eliza, and baptised as Eliza, but went on to call herself Emma Sophia. All good fun `innit?' :)

Thanks for the input Myth.

Glenys

[Geoffers]

A couple of thoughts:

1) Is there a John Green living/born in/near Dunton in the 1841/51 census? (edit - forget this bit, just seen what you have written above)

2) Have you tried the Tithe commutation records from the 1830's to see if there is a John Green in/near Dunton?

For the Tithe Act 1836 records, see this TNA guide and scroll down to part 6
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=100

Geoffers

[Mythology]

"When he married Emma Robbins (born Buckingham) in 1846, he gave his age as 19, and he was a Soldier."

OK, I know you mean 1842 not 1846, so don't worry about the typo, it's the tail end bit that's relevant. If he was a soldier, he could have been almost *anywhere* in 1841!
So, you can probably forget the John Green who's in Buckingham.

Back to the drawing board.

"I have come to the conlusion that:
He knew his father was John Green, and that is why I am on the Barstardy Bond trail, just in case."

Yes, I'd concentrate the effort on that.

"I might not get much joy from the 1841! Still, I shall get it anyway, as I want to check Emma out as well, as I believe she was shown as Eliza, and baptised as Eliza, but went on to call herself Emma Sophia."

There is an Emma Robbins born "abt 1826" in Buckingham 1841.
No Eliza, only an Elizabeth "abt 1814".
Lots of other Robbins too, so iffy without seeing the page, but if she's at home, looks as though Emma's parents are probably Thomas and Mary, so if you have Thomas as her father on the marriage cert, that looks promising.

[busyglen]

2) Have you tried the Tithe commutation records from the 1830's to see if there is a John Green in/near Dunton?

For the Tithe Act 1836 records, see this TNA guide and scroll down to part 6
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=100

Geoffers

No Geoffers, I wouldn't have thought of that, so thank you, thats a great idea to try. This is the first time that I have encountered something like this, so it is all new to me. It's like being back at school! ;)

Glenys

[busyglen]

"There is an Emma Robbins born abt. 1826 in Buckingham 1841"

Thanks for that Myth! I only have a handwritten record of the 1841 taken by another relative a number of years ago, and that shows Eliza. And yes, Thomas & Mary are the parents (I think) as Thomas is on the Marriage Cert.

Also...someone looked up the Buckingham Baptisms, and could only find an Eliza, born the right time to parents Thomas & Mary, which is why I thought she had changed her name. The name given on the marriage cert. was Emma Sophia Robbins, and I've looked at several possibles on Free BMD, in case I am on the wrong track for her, but I don't think so.

Thanks again! :)

ps. sorry about the typo!

Glenys

[busyglen]

Just realised Myth, that wasn't a typo, but a sentence not very well formed. I meant that he married Emma in 1846 (who was born in Buckingham). I put it the wrong way round...sorry. :(

Glenys

[Mythology]

"I meant that he married Emma in 1846 (who was born in Buckingham)"

No he didn't - he married Emma in 1842!

That's why, elsewhere, you have:
"They had a child in 1846 ( 4 yrs after they married ..."
That bit's right - it's your marriage date that's up the creek.

[busyglen]

Oops!!!

Sorry, humble apologies. |bowdown| It's the heat you know!!
Of course you are right, they married in 1842 and son Alfred was born in 1846. Do you think I should give this game up...it's doing my head in??!!

Glenys

[Mythology]

I'll let you off. ;)

If it's as hot and sticky there as it is here, some confusion is quite understandable - I've given up on anything remotely complicated for the day already!

[busyglen]

I'll let you off. ;)

If it's as hot and sticky there as it is here, some confusion is quite understandable - I've given up on anything remotely complicated for the day already!

Thank you kind Sir!

Actually, I've been trying to divide my time into so many pieces today, it's a wonder that I've had time to read the board, let alone reply. We are off to Wales tomorrow for a few days to visit my sister in law, who's just had a big operation, so I'm trying to sort out clothes etc as well as the usual chores! Who'd be a woman! Don't answer that Myth, you are exempt. :D

I'm not looking forward to the M25 and M4 in the morning...that's if we can actually get off the Island. The new bridge should be open at the weekend!! Can you see that large pink object floating in the sky?

Catch up with you all Sunday.

Thanks Peter, Geoffers and Myth for your help.

Glenys

[Mythology]

"I'm not looking forward to the M25 and M4 in the morning."

I know a much nicer route which just happens to be via Aylesbury.
It'll be time to stop for a break and stretch your legs by then ...

"Oh - look, dear, there's that Buckinghamshire Archives place that I was telling you about. I'd completely forgotten that it was in Aylesbury - what a lucky coincidence that we stopped here! You don't mind if I pop in for a minute, do you?"

Now, Glenys ...
"Who'd be a woman!"
Call yourself a woman, do you? ;)
You're not half devious enough! :D

Have a good trip. :)

[busyglen]

|laugh1| Thanks for cheering me up Myth!

No, I'm not devious...I tried once and it didn't work, so I gave up! I'm just me! Plus my husband is no fool, he can read me like a book. And...I've just been talking about how I would love to go to Aylesbury to see what I could find....so that wouldn't work. I have hinted that it would be nice to spend a short holiday in the area sometime, so the seeds have been sown! ;)

I'd better get on now...the sky is black and thunderstorms are predicted, so better get the pc switched off pronto.

Glenys

[busyglen]

You know how they talk of dangling the carrot before the donkey....well I know how he feels!!

Having contacted the Bucks. FHS for some advice, a mention was made of Winslow Workhouse, which I have only recently got around to following up. I found the site and there was a surname search, so I duly typed in JARVIS, and straight away a result came up with my John Jarvis, aged 11 in Aug. 1835 and he was living in Dunton (where he said he was born on the 1851 Census). It states that he was illegitimate and given no allowance.

There was a reference number, so I contacted the Centre for Bucks. Studies, with fingers crossed that the actual record would show his mother's name. I got really excited that at last I would know who this gt.gt.gt. grandmother was. :( No such luck.

I received a reply today to say that the reference was from a minute book of the Guardians of the Poor for Winslow Union, where there were lists of the paupers in various parishes who were being given allowances. The first one for Dunton, was my John, but there were no other details given. |banghead|

So....does this mean that he was living on his own and applied for an allowance. Would he have been able to do this? Perhaps his mother was dead? Or...perhaps she was in the Workhouse? But then, why would John be living in Dunton? If he was born in Dunton, why wasn't his name on the PRs that I searched? Sigh....I guess I'm never going to unravel this...any more ideas anyone?

Glenys

[Geoffers]

a mention was made of Winslow Workhouse....I found the site and there was a surname search, so I duly typed in JARVIS, and straight away a result came up with my John Jarvis, aged 11 in Aug. 1835 and he was living in Dunton (where he said he was born on the 1851 Census). It states that he was illegitimate and given no allowance......I received a reply today to say that the reference was from a minute book of the Guardians of the Poor for Winslow Union, where there were lists of the paupers in various parishes who were being given allowances. The first one for Dunton, was my John, but there were no other details given.A couple of thoughts:

1) Any other Jarviseseseses living in or around Dunton in the 1841/1851 census?

2) Any other workhouse records survive? e.g. An admissions and/or discharge register. Any register relating to workhouse children being put to an apprenticeship? Workhouses were keen on baptism - any mass baptisms in the local parish register, or did the workhouse have its own register of baptism?

Geoffers

[Peter Goodey]

Trouble is you need to ask the right question - which is all very well but you don't always know what the right question is. :o

I wonder what other records have survived that might shed more light - I bet they didn't volunteer that sort of information ;) . Register of children boarded out? Out-relief documents?

If there's nothing among the Winslow Union documents, it would be worth asking if any poor law stuff has survived from Dunton parish (he was born before the days of the New Poor Law when it was all the responsibility of the parish).

If he was getting an allowance, it might suggest that they hadn't tracked down or hadn't managed to screw money put of the father.

[busyglen]

Thanks Geoffers. I am patiently awaiting the 1841 Census to be released by ACDB, which I am sure will help enormously...(I've got to cling to something;))

I have looked all through the Dunton PRs and found nothing. There were a family of GREEN, but the time span and ages were all out, and no John. I couldn't find any Jarvises either, that's why I'm pinning my hopes on the 1841. I will have to see what other records are available from the Workhouse.

Thanks for your advice. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

You are quite right Peter....I am way out of my depth here and really didn't know what questions to ask!

I will now concentrate on the Winslow Union, to see what documents are available. According to the document I found, John wasn't getting any allowance, so possibly his mother may have received something elsewhere. I am sure the 1841 will prove some help, although there won't be too much information on this census.

Thanks again for your help and advice. :)

Glenys

[Mythology]

"John Jarvis, aged 11 in Aug. 1835 and he was living in Dunton"

Well, at least that's something - if in 1835 at age 11 he was known as Jarvis not Green, that seems most likely to be what he will appear as in anything else.

"I will now concentrate on the Winslow Union"
OK, but do bear in mind what Peter said about the Poor Law Act - earlier stuff may, if it has survived, be in parish records if the Union didn't inherit it.

[busyglen]

Thanks Myth. I felt sure he would have been called Jarvis from birth, as every record that I have shows him as that. So...it sounds as if this is his mother's name. It was only on his marriage that the father was named as GREEN, which put the spanner in the works.

I am also going to see what I can find regarding the Poor Law Act as Peter suggested. To be honest, I doubt I will find anything from the Winslow Union, but anything is worth a try isn't it?

Fingers crossed again! ;)

Glenys

[blue eyes]

Hi Glenys


Just a suggestion what about Met police (London) records of service at records office Kew.

Julie

[busyglen]

That's a good idea Julie, however (I've been trying to find the post but can't) someone gave me a link to some Met records on-line a while back. As it was 1851 when he was in the force....the records on the list didn't start until (from memory) 1860's. There were a couple of Jarvises with no info against them, just the name.

However, now you have brought this to my attention again, I might have another look to see if there is anything else on-line from Kew. Unfortunately I can't get there to look myself, which is a pain!!

Thanks again for your input, much appreciated. :)

Glenys

[blue eyes]

Here is a link to the records office.

Julie

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search/quick_search.aspx?search_text=metro+police+records

[busyglen]

Here is a link to the records office.

Julie

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search/quick_search.aspx?search_text=metro+police+records

Thanks for that Julie. I hadn't as yet had time to do a search, so I now know what reference I need. However, doing another publication search on the Bucks. FHS I found that they have details of Metro Police born in Bucks. (ie. Strays) which is on fiche. I am tempted to try that first, as I can't get to Kew, and might `just' strike lucky!


Thanks again for your help. |wave|
Glenys

[Geoffers]

However, doing another publication search on the Bucks. FHS I found that they have details of Metro Police born in Bucks. (ie. Strays) which is on fiche.
I may have missed it, in which case apologies, but I cannot see anything in this thread which says your chap's dad was in the Met.

If he was a policeman in Bucks, surviving records are probably now with the Thames Valley Police (TVP), I don't know if it is still the case, but they used to be stored at the Force Museum at the TVP training centre, Sulhamstead.

I can't help with where Herts Police records may be found.

If your chap was in the Met, please ignore my drivel.

Geoffers

[busyglen]

I may have missed it, in which case apologies, but I cannot see anything in this thread which says your chap's dad was in the Met.

If he was a policeman in Bucks, surviving records are probably now with the Thames Valley Police (TVP), I don't know if it is still the case, but they used to be stored at the Force Museum at the TVP training centre, Sulhamstead.

I can't help with where Herts Police records may be found.

If your chap was in the Met, please ignore my drivel.

Geoffers

It's not drivel Geoffers, just me trying to confuse the issue!!

Because I have posted on this subject several times, I have lost trace of the fact that `all' the information pertaining to this chap, isn't on every post. So, sorry about that.

He was found on the 1851 Census in St. Geo. Hanover Square as a policeman. From memory, someone gave me a link to some Met. records, but he wasn't there. They seemed to start a few years later, by which time he had left and then died. Looking at some of the sites now and the NA, these records seem to have been withdrawn and only available from the NA. Unless of course, there are transcriptions somewhere.

Bucks. FHS have a fiche of *Stray* Met. Policemen, and I thought this may be worth a go.

Hope I have made this a bit clearer....sorry. |oopsredfa

Glenys