CPP wills etc

[Ed McKie]

some time ago ( a couple of years) I purchased a will on line, which is the usual scan of the copy made at the time. The death occured in 1838. It now occurs to me to wonder ( I am a bit slow these days) if there is in fact any other information available about this will. For instance, is the original likely to be still at the PRO or just this copy.? Is there likely to be any info as to who applied for probate, the value of the effects etc.? As the will was made in 1820 and the death occured a long time after, there is no guarantee that the appointed executors were still around.

Cheers..Ed

[Colin Moretti]

Hello Ed

I assume that you mean PCC wills since you downloaded it from PRO; they're the only ones available.

TNA (PRO as was) have a helpful leaflet on the subject, you can view it online at
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=168
If it's a copy from the PROB series it should say at the end to whom probate was granted, and the date.

Good luck

Colin

[Mythology]

Ed, before I wear my fingers out on guesswork, is this the bird stuffer?

[Ed McKie]

[QUOTE=Colin Moretti]Hello Ed

I assume that you mean PCC wills since you downloaded it from PRO; they're the only ones available.

Yes of course silly me!!.... But you knew anyway :-)

Thanks for the suggestion will have a look at the info.

Cheers..Ed

[Ed McKie]

Ed, before I wear my fingers out on guesswork, is this the bird stuffer?

Yes..tis he.... still beavering away ( no pun intended) trying to work out what happened to quite an extensive collection of stuffed birds and animals.
Have now identified a Sun insurance policy of 1816 at the Guildhall which I have sent for, this might give another snippet of info.

Myth..you either have a wonderful memory or a very sophisticated date retrieval system that leaves me goggling.

Cheers..Ed ( touchtypist ridiculous- to sort of borrow a phrase)

[Mythology]

I expect that the 1838 date stuck in my mind because of stumbling across him in those Bunhill Fields burials when looking for one of mine.

As Colin says, the probate date and who it was granted to should be at the end of the registered copy anyway, so hopefully you've got that now, but the probate date - the important thing for further investigation, as that's what they're filed by - is also in the "Documents online" entry, 17 November 1838, so ...

You have the registered copy from PROB11/1902.
Originals are in PROB10. Assuming that yours has survived (and you'd be very unlucky to find that it hadn't with one as late as 1838) it will be in PROB10/5816, this being the box that covers surnames G-K for November 1838.

Now, I'm very keen on getting copies of the originals, I don't trust those sloppy court clerks - but I can get to Kew in not much more than an hour on a good day, two hours at the worst. I have never used their online ordering service to have things dug out by them and sent to me, so I have no idea what the likely cost would be. I think they charge you about a tenner just for asking, don't they? The reference is to the box, not to the individual will - somebody will have to rummage through, untie the relevant bundle of folded up wills, find your one, flatten it out, and take a copy. I expect they'd charge you for the time involved, not just the copying. Also, it's unlikely that they will just slap it on the photocopier - I'd expect to pay for a scan.

Yes, OK, maybe I'm being a bit pessimistic but, trying to put myself in your shoes, I have to ask "Is it worth it for the possible extra info?".

(continues)

[Mythology]

In theory, you might, for example, find that Thomas Hall made his will on a couple of sheets of paper torn out of his diary, with vital family information on the other side of the paper - but, realistically, it isn't very probable.
The registered copy, in which he is "of" a certain place (i.e. that's where he was living when he made the will) won't tell you where and when he died. The original will almost certainly have both date and place of death written on it in the notes - but as this is 1838, you have a death cert, so you know that anyway.
Generally speaking (apart from value, which I'll come to later) when we are considering extra *information* rather than the desirability of getting the real thing instead of a clerk's transcript, that's about all you're likely to find by getting the original. I do have one of mine which states in the extra notes that the deceased was "formerly of Rumford [sic] afterward of of [sic] Hornchurch in the County of Essex but late of Upminster in the same County" instead of just "of Upminster" given in the registered copy, which was handy as I didn't know that he'd been in Hornchurch in between times and it led me straight to a few things which would probably otherwise have taken longer to find by casting the guesswork net, but most simply have the date and place of death.

Now - value.
A "sworn value" will be given - have a look at your registered copy, this is likely to be given in the margin anyway - but this can be pretty meaningless.
In the will of one of mine, for example, there are a number of specific sums bequeathed to various people, totalling well over £400, with the residue to the grandchildren, and the sworn value is given as "Under £600".
She didn't have anything like £600. The sums actually dished out were not much more than half those bequeathed, e.g., the daughter who should have had £200 got £103/12/11 (and lost £1/0/8 of that in tax), and if you add them all up it comes to only £206/5/10. One of them doesn't work out percentagewise so I suspect a clerical error here, I reckon that the one given as £50/16/5 is probably £51/16/5, but even at a total of £207/5/10, that's a long way short of £600!

(continues)

[Mythology]

Where did this info come from? Not from the original will - from the death duty register, which, incidentally, also gave me the occupation and "address" (parish) of the executor, a cousin.
Assuming that he's there (most are, but he won't be if no tax was payable) death duty register entries seem to be rather variable, but I'd reckon that the entry is more likely to provide you with additional useful information than the few extra bits on the original will as opposed to the registered copy.
Somewhere in the leaflets on the TNA site there should be one or more relating to the death duty registers, including an explanation of the abbreviations used in the entries but, basically ...

You use the index (IR27) to locate the appropriate register (IR26).
IR27/245 is the index that covers surnames E-J for 1838 wills, so that's what we'd look up if we were at Kew or the FRC, but actually we can look it up without even knowing the reference and without leaving home at very little cost. Currently, it's on the "National Archivist" site - but as of tomorrow, Thursday 20th, it will be on 1837online. I expect you'll have bought some credits with them anyway, but if not, I have plenty.
Assuming he's there, once we have the folio number from that index, we then know what we need in IR26.
For surnames H-J in 1838:
Folios 1 - 219: IR26/1485
Folios 220 - 440: IR26/1486
Folios 441 - 659: IR26/1487
Folio 660: Not listed, presumably blank, missing or catalogue error.
Folios 661 - 819: IR26/1488

Unless you are in a mad panic, which I very much doubt, don't pay silly money to TNA to get the register entry. These are on film at both Kew and, more conveniently, the FRC, and it'll be a two page printout at a mere 20p per page. In the course of typing this, I've just had confirmation that my delayed home move will be happening at the end of next week, so total chaos is not far away. I'll probably be completely out of circulation for a while and certainly won't be going anywhere for a while, but if you don't get any other offers I hope to be back to normal by about June. I don't go to Kew that often, but visits to the FRC are usually reasonably frequent - and even if I don't actually want anything there myself, it's only a couple of minutes walk from the LMA, so it can tie in with that.

[Mythology]

Follow up ...

1837online obviously have your interests at heart so are working on Australian time, not UK time. ;)

I popped in there about 15 mins ago, roughly 11 p.m. our time, and the stuff transferred over from the National Archivist site is already there.
So, as I wanted to see how they've arranged it anyway, I used your Thomas as an experiment, and I'm 99.99% certain that we have him.
Name of the executor from your registered copy would be handy as absolute confirmation just in case there were two of them in the same place, but I have Thomas Hall, residence City Road, which fits your boy, on folio 645, so that's IR26/1487 for the register.

[Mythology]

"Name of the executor from your registered copy would be handy as absolute confirmation"

Don't bother - it's him.

I'm so used to the fact that by this time all wills are in the same set of death duty registers irrespective of the court they were proved in that I didn't think to look at the court listed because, from the point of view of looking it up in the register, it doesn't make any odds!
Silly me - as it's PCC, a quick prod at Documents Online gives us any other Thomas Hall 1838 PCC wills and we can compare the two lists.

There are only two other Thomas Hall PCC wills in 1838, both easily identified because they are much earlier in the year (actual dates are not given in the death duty register index but the folios it refers to are in date order) and because they didn't move - the one who's Lambeth in the will is listed as Lambeth in the DD reg index, and the one who's of No.8 Allington Street Pimlico in the will is listed as Allington Street Pimlico in the DD reg index.

So that's both of them dealt with, we don't have an awkward blighter who made his will in Timbuktu but fell over in City Road who might get mixed up with your boy. :)

[Mythology]

Yet another afterthought - I'll go to bed sometime, honest! ;)

If you decide to go for the death duty register entry and somebody else volunteers to get it to save you waiting a couple of months but isn't used to these things ...

The death duty register index is not a later PRO concoction - it was written out at the time.
The "folio" referred to is, therefore, the folio number originally written in the register, not the folio number stamped on by the PRO!

[Ed McKie]

"Yet another afterthought - I'll go to bed sometime, honest"

Myth= thanks for all that- I didnt answer your first post as I thought you would already be in bed, and then they kept coming- so thought would dash off a quick reply, but then thought I would look at 1837online first. Couldnt view as did not have djvu, started to download that and computer crashed !!!! Still desparately trying to avoid reinstalling windows.

cheers..Ed

[Ed McKie]

Have looked at the copy of the will I got on line from the PRO and there is no further information on it- certainly no notes as to the executors, and even the reference is cut off at the bottom !!
Will have another look at the 1837 online .

Cheers..Ed

[Mythology]

Oh dear - sounds to me as if the will ends at the bottom of one page, the probate notes are at the top of the next one, and they've not given you the second page.

"Will have another look at the 1837 online."

Umm .. what for?

1837online have the death duty register index and I've already got the reference from that.
So, we know which register we need and what folio number, but we need the film at Kew or FRC for the actual register - they don't have that on 1837online.
If you don't already have the relevant page from the index, shout and I'll send it to you, but, for the moment, this is the executor shown:

http://www.bgf.talbot-roots.org.uk/1838-Hall-Thos-exec.jpg

I'm not sure what that surname's supposed to be, but it may ring a bell with you.

[Mythology]

P. S.
"Simons" just about works if we assume that the dot over the i is carelessly placed - got an "A. Simons" anywhere in the family?

[Mythology]

(Rapid change of plan)

"I don't go to Kew that often"

But, of course, life is full of surprises, things that you would normally be delighted by happen just when you could do without them, etc., etc. ...

This evening I had a phone call. I did not recognise the definitely Australian accent, thought it was probably some sales type at first, then, when invited to guess who it was, as I couldn't think of anyone male in Australia who was likely to phone me, thought it was somebody who had dialled a wrong number.
It turned out to be an internet friend who I've never actually spoken to on the phone, so I didn't stand much chance of guessing really!

Pleasant surprise as this was, I was puzzled as to how he had my phone number - not that I mind in the least, but I don't recall having given it to him.
He wasn't phoning from Australia - he's over here, staying with another friend, affectionately known as the Soup Lady on account of a disastrous experiment with some garlic, who I meet up with now and then and, of course, she has my phone number.

She goes to Kew every Saturday. He, of course, will be going too this Saturday. And, I'm told, another friend in Lancashire who I haven't seen for a couple of years, is coming to London so will also be there.
Although trying not to do anything at the moment, I don't intend to miss the opportunity of meeting an internet friend in real life and two other friends, one of whom I haven't seen for ages, so, I'm tied up in the morning but I will be going along about lunchtime too.

Most of my own stuff is either packed or too complicated to deal with in a Saturday afternoon, especially a Saturday afternoon reduced by a lunchtime natter, given how early they pack up ordering and copying on a Saturday (I always go during the week, no rush then) so apart from looking up a few things in the library, I'm not going to try - instead I'll get your register copies, as that's something nice and simple that is on film, doesn't need ordering, can be done as a self-service print-out so no rush to get it to the copying room etc., the ideal thing to just give me something to do. :)

[Linda]

Please excuse this rude interruption but.....

Ooooh! The Fearsome Foursome at Kew! ;)

Have fun, but behave yourselves now, d'ya hear? :D
(And please give hugs all round from me!|hug| )

Linda

[Ed McKie]

(Rapid change of plan)

"I don't go to Kew that often"
- instead I'll get your register copies, as that's something nice and simple that is on film, doesn't need ordering, can be done as a self-service print-out so no rush to get it to the copying room etc., the ideal thing to just give me something to do. :)


Dont what to say, except thanks for all your efforts.
I think I must have been a bit obtuse about the executors- because of course they are named in the will !!!! Anne Simmons, Thomas ' common law wife and her brother George. So once again you were correct. No mention of George on the Duty entry and the address is not clear- are those dittos do you think.

Anyway, get back to your packing and hope your move goes well. Will only say that we moved a little over two years ago and there are still boxes in the garage waiting to be unpacked. Perhaps I will leave them for my executors to do.

cheers..Ed

[Mythology]

"I think I must have been a bit obtuse"
Ditto. If I didn't have my mind on the move and was using a bit of common sense, I'd have dug out the film for the registered copy of the will that you have and got those missing probate notes too! Oh well, another time.

"Anne Simmons"
OK, the clerk doing the DD stuff thinks she's Simons, but he was close. The name's a lot clearer in the register than in that index, she's "Ann Simons of 10 City Road Mx Spr"

"common law wife"
Ah! I wondered where she fitted in, obviously not actually related, because it has "Stra." in the Consanguinity column.

"her brother George. ... No mention of George on the Duty entry"
I think when we get those missing probate notes it will say that the will was proved by Ann, plus a note reserving the right to grant the same powers to the other executor should he apply. This isn't uncommon, and I'd expect it to be the case rather than him having died or renounced his rights, because in the Executors column in the register it has Ann on one line, then "Powers" on the next line.

Did George get £3 for his trouble or something? The Legacies column has "Personal Estate except £3"

There is mention of leaseholds - no details of where, but presumably you have that from the will anyway.

Sworn value under £100 if you don't already have that.
Yes, can't argue with that, the Value of Annuities and Bequests column has £31/0/11, which was definitely under £100 when I went to school, though I expect some Eurocrat will have revised the way we add up by now.
Duty, £3/2/-, is 10% - that's what comes of not marrying!

I'll e-mail you later re the actual copy - a nice afternoon yesterday, but I ache too much to fiddle around with the scanner this morning, I'll leave that until I've loosened up later on.

Oh - nearly overlooked ...
"address is not clear- are those dittos do you think."
Yes. The register gives it properly, as above, but that is indeed what those squiggles in the index are.

Cheers :)

[Mythology]

Linda.

"And please give hugs all round from me!"
Sorry, brain isn't working at the moment, I have to confess that I clean forgot to mention your existence. :o
Incidentally, we were five not four - the Wicked Witch of Wokingham came too.
(Don't you dare tell her I called her that!)

[Linda]

Never mind Myth, the guys may not have liked it too much had you given them a hug :D

Incidentally, we were five not four
Ah yes, I have seen the evidence! ;)


- the Wicked Witch of Wokingham came too.
(Don't you dare tell her I called her that!)

I won't tell, but I cannot speak for others :p

Linda

[Ed McKie]

Isnt it amazing how one answer just creates more questions. ?

Having now got the value of this will in 1838 of Less than $100, I hve now recived details of an insurance policy of 1816 which had a total value of 900 pounds. 500 for the building, 300 for stock in trade as it were and 100 for clothing and household goods etc. Surely a leasehold interest 20 years later would not have deteriorated to that extent. Will hve to thinkt it out again as Ron Moody said.

Cheers..Ed