VINES/CROOSE families of Derby

[tony vines]

I am researching the Vines name. I've found a marriage record for Henry Vines and Elizabeth Ann Croose for 3/7/1853 who married at the General Baptist Chapel, Sacheveral St. Derby. Fathers were Charles and John respectively and both were living at Canal St. Henry may be my gg grandfather.

Henry is listed as a stoker while Charles was a railway porter. John Croose was a painter.

Any further info. on either family would be much appreciated e.g 1851 census lookup for Canal Street, to see whether either was there then or even in 1861.

Tony Vines

[Brett]

Hi Tony,

The 1851 Census Index for St. Peter's Derby (Vol. 9.2) published by the Derbyshire Family History Society shows a Henry VINES, aged 19, living at Copeland Street (PRO Ref. 2143 Fol. 153 Sch 139). I don't have the full census transcript, so I'm unable to give you the details of who else was living there. Canal Street was also in St. Peter's parish, Derby, but there are no other VINES listed. Can you confirm that the bride's surname was CROOSE? If so, then I can tell you that there aren't any people of that surname shown in St Peter's Derby in 1851.

[tony vines]

Hi Brett

Thanks for your reply. Always exciting to me that help sometimes come from so far away (I'm in the UK)!

The Henry Vines I seek was born around 1832 In Leicestershire so the age is clearly correct. The Henry who married into the Croose family was a railway worker at the time ('my' Henry was a shoemaker later which may be a problem) so it is not surprising that he should have found work in Derby. I will now have to find a copy of the actual 1851 census to see his birthplace.

The copy marriage cert. I obtained for Henry and Elizabeth Ann is certainly for Croose, not Cross. The name seemed to be quite rare in the UK in the 19th century and most seem to come from the same part of the country, but not Derbys. Earlier Croose's have names like Johannes suggesting German or perhaps Dutch origins. The father was John Croose, a painter who was presumably living in Canal St in 1853. However maybe he was down as a Cross in the census?

I am actually not following the Croose line (I think there's a joke in there somwhere) but felt that information on it might just throw more light on my Vines line.

Again thanks

Tony

[Brett]

Dear Tony,

Here is a transcript of the household entry from the 1851 Census, courtesy of Geoff M (thanks Geoff). Unfortunately, it looks like it's not going to help you much!

HO107/2143 FOLIO 154 Page 27
Parish: Derby St Peter, Sch 139:19 Copeland Street
Meakin William HD M 23 Machinist journeyman b. Hucknall Torkard : NTT
Meakin Mary WI M 26 - b. Hucknall Torkard : NTT
Vines Henry LG U 19 Railway engine stoker b. : NK
Wootton Joshua LG U 21 Shoemaker journeyman b. : NK
Gadd William LG U 20 Railway labourer b. G? : LEI

Regards and best wishes

[tony vines]

Hi Brett

Thanks again and thanks to Geoff M too. The county of birth appears to be Norfolk which does not fit with my earlier research which suggested either Leicestershire or Northants. As you imply, it suggests that this may not be my ancestor although his age, his father's name, his wife's two first names all match and his proximity to Leicester was indicative too.

I'll have to keep loooking.

best regards

Tony

[Brett]

Sorry, I should have explained: NK = not known!

Brett

[ALJ23]

Hi - I am researching Croose - there are lots of them in the Flintshire area in 1851 and I was wondering what other links you have to that surname ??

Will update this soon as I am just starting to research this

[tony vines]

Hi

I only have the one link to the 2 Croose names you will have seen from the earlier exchanges. You will also see that Brett revealed that there were no Crooses in Derby in the 1851 census suggesting that the family moved to Derby sometime between census day 1851 and 1853. As there are no others in the town it also suggests that the family comes from another part of the country.

Sorry, that's all I can help with unless you find a link to my Crooses and in which case I can tell you about her children with my g grandfather. He married a second time after she died and I descend from the second marriage.

regards