17th Regiment of Foot

[jml2]

My G Grandfather was in the 17 Regiment of Foot when this Regiment was sent to Canada abt 1862, to help suppress the Fenian raids. It is said he purchased his discharge here, and here he stayed. I have check TNA site and found the followning:

"Soldiers' documents for those who were discharged by purchase have not survived for the pre-1883 period."

Unfortunately he purchased his discharge in 1866. It would seem I am left with the Muster Books and Pay Lists in the WO12 records. Are any of these records accessable online.

JML

[Geoffers]

My G Grandfather was in the 17 Regiment of Foot when this Regiment was sent to Canada abt 1862, to help suppress the Fenian raids. It is said he purchased his discharge here, and here he stayed.Tales often get twisted in the telling, it may be worth checking all Army records held by TNA on the off chance that he didn't purchase a discharge.


It would seem I am left with the Muster Books and Pay Lists in the WO12 records. Are any of these records accessable online.
Sorry, these records are not available online,

Geoffers

[neil1821]

Hi,
You say he purchased his discharge in 1866, the year of the first Fenian Raid.
Have you checked the medal roll? I have it here, happy to check if you give me a name.
Neil

[jml2]

Thank you for the offer. His name is Hugh Lord. I am told he purchased his discharge in 1866 at Toronto Canada. There is also family talk of a medal and I would very much appreciate your having a look at your records to see if there is anything there.

JML

[neil1821]

He's listed!
520 Private Hugh Lord, 2nd Battalion 17th Regt.
Awarded the Canada General Service Medal with the clasp for Fenian Raid 1866.

The main events for which this was awarded were May/June 1866, so he was still with the regiment at that time.

To see the medal he would have had, check this page:
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group03/cgsm&CFID=3438137&CFTOKEN=45621898

Neil

[jml2]

Neil, thank you for the info, much appreciated.

JML

[John Simmons]

Neil, My Great Great grandfather was in the same unit and actualy stayed in Canada and married into an old french canadian family. His name was William Henry Gunnell is he by chance on the same list you used to Locate Hugh Lord?

Thanks

John

[jpo4t]

He's listed!
520 Private Hugh Lord, 2nd Battalion 17th Regt.
Awarded the Canada General Service Medal with the clasp for Fenian Raid 1866.

The main events for which this was awarded were May/June 1866, so he was still with the regiment at that time.

To see the medal he would have had, check this page:
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group03/cgsm&CFID=3438137&CFTOKEN=45621898

Neil
Hello

I hope you dont mind me asking my Great Great Grandfather was a Bandsman in the 17th Regt. would you know of any records i could look in to find him please, his name was BENJAMIN ALLEN i know very little of him. many thanks

[elissa kester]

My great-grandfather, Patrick Gurney, born c1819 in Ireland, was a private in the 17th Foot regiment. He served in Canada in the 1860s ... several of his children were born in Quebec.... and arrived in Western Australia in 1862. I have been unable to find his army record despite searching all the 17th Foot Regiment films available through the LDS. Can anyone help with this? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Elissa
Western Australia

[Geoffers]

Welcome to the B-G forums.........


My great-grandfather, Patrick Gurney, born c1819 in Ireland, was a private in the 17th Foot regiment. He served in Canada in the 1860s ... several of his children were born in Quebec.... and arrived in Western Australia in 1862. I have been unable to find his army record despite searching all the 17th Foot Regiment films available through the LDS. Can anyone help with this? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

There is a thread here (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35481) to give some advice on finding Soldiers' Documents.

I believe that the 17th was the Leicestershire Regiment.

From your message, your chap seems to have left the army prior to 1872

So, using TNA's Catalogue (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)

In the word or phrase field, enter - Leciester*
In the year range, enter - 1860-1862
In the department or series code enter - WO97

I've just done that and got four hits

Note that three of the files have groups of three letters after them. These are abbreviations for the first and last entries alphabetically in each file. So you need to look for the file in which GURNEY would appear.

I think this is WO97/1445.

You'll see that the file title is inderlined. Click on this and then the button on the right of the screen marked 'Request this.'

Enter the details of the chap for whom you are looking in the file and TNA will send you a quote for copying the record, which can be done electronically.

This all assumes that:

1) I am right in thinking that the 17th Foot was the Leicestershire Regiment.

2) That your chap's record has not been misfiled.

If you want to read about mlitary records that are available, TNA has loads of research guides, including these:

Discharge Papers 1760-1913 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=14)
Pensions 1702-1913 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=15)

Which explain things far better than I am able and are well worth a browse over a cuppa.

[elissa kester]

Hello all
Some months ago I posted a query about the regimental records relating to my gt-gt-grandfather Patrick Gurney ... a longstanding brickwall in my research. I happy to say that finally, as a result of information posted by Geoffers and others, I have finally discovered most of those records. Although the period I am most interested in (1854-59) was not covered in the 17th Foot records I now know that Patrick was born at Newbridge in Co Kildare which gives a possible starting point for finding earlier generations... although this avenue has so far not come up with anything conclusive.

Thanks to those who posted suggestions relating to this topic.

Regards,
Elissa

[helencoan]

I have Alfred Disney listed on the 1861 Census at Shorncliffe camp in Suffolk as Private in the 17th regiment of Foot. From what I see here it is likely he went to Canada with the Regiment. There is an Afred Disney in the 1871 Directory for Montreal could this be him? Any help much appreciated.

[Geoffers]

Hello and welcome to the B-G forums


I have Alfred Disney listed on the 1861 Census at Shorncliffe camp in Suffolk as Private in the 17th regiment of Foot. From what I see here it is likely he went to Canada with the Regiment.

Do you have your chap's army service record? If not, that would be the first thing for which I think you need to look.

There are a couple of links on this thread to research guides on The National Archives' (TNA)web-site. On this forum there is a message at the top of the list of thread on how to find some British army records.

[helencoan]

Thanks for that . I've followed the threads and have found I need to look in WO97/1444 for discharge papers but as he probably left in Canada I doubt if they will be here. Since he was on the 1861 census in Suffolk there must be a good chance that he will be in the muster & pay rolls in WO12. My problem is access to the National Archives . Still at least I'm a better informed about where to look than I was. Any chance of a look up on the medal rolls? Helen

[Geoffers]

I've followed the threads and have found I need to look in WO97/1444 for discharge papers but as he probably left in Canada I doubt if they will be here.

It doesn't matter where your chap went off to live, the record should be at TNA

If you can identify a probable file AND you can provide some detail to specifically identify your chap in amongst the others in the same box, then you could ask TNA to provide an estimate for copying the discharge papers. The last set I received cost about six quid, better value than a birth certificate.

If you're not sure where to click on TNA's web-site, jsut ask and I'll try to led you through it.

[helencoan]

I've already got a reply for a request for copies of documents from WO97/1444 but they say it would take too long to find them so can't give a quote. I suspect the search would be even longer looking at the musters and paypolls so I'll just have to wait until anothe ropportunity arives. Thank you so much for directing me to the records I will need. Helen

[Geoffers]

Oh well, such is life - if it helps the records in WO96 and WO97 are going to be put online by 2011 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/news/stories/212.htm) if you could just twiddle your thumbs for a while........

[erick]

Looking for information on Standish Acres and his brother George was a color?Sergeant 1st Battalion 17th Regiment of Foot.
I see that people would stay in Canada or return to England while in the 1st Battalion 17th Regiment of Foot. served somewhere about 1860-1863 ?
Is there someway I can find out what happened th George he was my Great Great Gradfathers, brother. He lived quite a colorful life from what I see of it
If you can possibly help me I would appreciate it so much
Miriam Olofsson

[Nperez1986]

Hi, my name is Norberto. I've been trying to research alot on the 2nd Anglo Afghan war, due to I came upone this interest from my last visit to Afghanistan. I saw and admired the 1853 Enfields and 1866 Sniders I cam upon, of course the Martini-Henry's as well. And Curisosity led to my exploration of how did these rifles get here? What to look for? How to tell if its real or a copy? etc. Well I came upon and acquired a P1853 Enfield, 3 band, marked with 1/ 17 / 773. Came to find out it was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 17th regiment of foot. ...now my question is, is there ANY way to find out who wielded this piece of history I've attained. I know they used martini Henry's in the 2nd Anglo afghan war, the Indians were given 1866 Snider Enfield, which I also acquired, I'm convinced did the 17th fight in the crimean war? if so then I can honestly states that this rifel shot in the Crimean war, and was last used in the 2nd Anglo Afghan war. I have a link to the photo's I've taken of this beautiful rifle. I checked EVERYTHING, disassembled, to verify authentic english pieces, not the Afghan copies they make out there. Only thing I wish was that the Afghans did not remove the blueing as they believe this to make the rifles more attractive to sell
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=40710
I'm looking to find in any record who was 773?? I have his rifle,and it would be great to know who shot it :)

can anyone please help me in this quest to place a name with this rifle (P56 Enfield)? I: My email is nperez1986@yahoo.com.

[Mary Anne]

Norberto

You could try contacting the Canadian War Museum on Ottawa. They have an awesome collection of rifles and are very knowledgeable about the artifacts. As well, they have and have access to (at Library and Archives Canada) a lot of historical records that may give you some clues.

Mary Anne

[keith9351]

The 17th The Leicestershire Regiment fought in the Crimea War before going to Canada in 1856, They were in Canada for the Trent Affair which nearly lead to war between the United States and Great Britain.
They returned to England in 1865, then on to Ireland 1867, India 1870 and Afghanistan 1878.
Keith

[erick]

My great-grandfather, George Acres, born about c1837 in Ireland, was a Staff Sergeant in the 17th Foot regiment. He served in Canada in the 1860s ... several of his children were born in Quebec.... I have been unable to find his army records. I had been told he received medal of honor in Canada and elsewhere and that he may have retired from the 17th foot to england.
Can you help me locate that information.
Also I would like to find out where in Ireland he was born would those records tell me.
ERICK G. OLOFSSON

[Phred]

Hi,
You say he purchased his discharge in 1866, the year of the first Fenian Raid.
Have you checked the medal roll? I have it here, happy to check if you give me a name.
Neil
I am researching Sergeant Thomas Cambridge, 17th Foot (Leicesters), who served with the regiment in Quebec from 1856. Thomas was a Warder at the Military Prison in Quebec in 1867 and 1868 and then moved with his family to Montreal embarking on a second career in the Police, rising to the rank of Lieutenant.

May I ask for a look up in the Canadian General Service Medal Rolls for Thomas to see if he was awarded any of the CGSM's for the Fenian Raids and/or the Red River Rebellion.

Thanking you in anticipation.

Kind regards and Happy New Year,

Pete

[jmduke]

Erick: Your post tweaked my interest because my GGF was also a sergeant in the 17th in Quebec. I found several parish register entires relevant to George Acres while in Quebec, specifically his marriage and the baptisms of four children. If you don't already have these, I would be pleased to transcribe them for you.

JMD

[erick]

JMduke: My email is: coollugan AT sbcglobal DOT net and my I can send you my address by Private Message. I thank yoou so very much in helping me with my search and Please transcribe whatever you may have found to me.
Erick
Posted by: jmduke
On: 02-03-2010 08:22 PM

Erick: Your post tweaked my interest because my GGF was also a sergeant in the 17th in Quebec. I found several parish register entires relevant to George Acres while in Quebec, specifically his marriage and the baptisms of four children. If you don't already have these, I would be pleased to transcribe them for you.

[Graham1]

This is my first attempt at using this forum (or indeed any forum) so hope i'm doing the correct thing!

I'm researching my GGGF Sgt John Faulks (No 74. 1st Battalion 17th Regt of Foot) . I have copies of his discharge papers. He joined October 1857 and discharged Jan 1878. I have his Silver medal for Long service and Good Conduct. I am trying to find out 1) where he served and what campagines he was involved in and 2) he married a lady from Ireland in around 1866, where can I find details of that marriage? and lastly my GGM Agnes Louisa Faulks was born in Lucknow in 1873 where might there be records of her birth? He returned to England after discharge and is on the census for 1881 onwards dieing in 1920 in Leicester always diescribed as Army Pensioner. Any help will be greatly appriciated thanks Graham

[Geoffers]

Welcome to the British-Genealogy forums


I'm researching my GGGF Sgt John Faulks (No 74. 1st Battalion 17th Regt of Foot) . I have copies of his discharge papers. He joined October 1857 and discharged Jan 1878.

The discharge papers should record some detail, number of years and days posted at home and overseas. What do they record for his time when he wasn't posted at 'home'?

Have you looked at what may be recorded in other documents held at The national Archives? - see these research guides (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp?j=1#b)click on the links prefixed 'British Army', for example have a look at pension records.

Regimental museums can be useful and interesting with regard to what regiments were doing at any particular time.

royalanglianmuseum.org.uk/leicestershire.html


he married a lady from Ireland in around 1866, where can I find details of that marriage?

There are two series of army marriages. One is indexed and can be searched online - The Army Chaplains Returns of marriage 1796-1880 (it's on most pay-per-view sites). If you find an entry there, you can order a copy of the certificate from the general Register office (GRO).

The second series of army marriages for this time are the 'Regimental Registers of Marriages 1761-1924. If you have a regiment and an approximate year of marriage, the GRO will carry out a search of the relevant regimental register for you.


and lastly my GGM Agnes Louisa Faulks was born in Lucknow in 1873

Army births indexes are available on pay-per-view sites and copies of certificates can be ordered from the GRO.

[Graham1]

Many thanks for this i'll follow it up and see where it takes me. Graham

[nanbird14]

Hi everyone, I have just found on ancestry details of my gr gr grandfather's (George Saunders born 1837 in Northampton) army record, I knew that he was in the 2/17th regiment and then transferrred to the Prince of Wales Canadian rifles, it says in his records that he was in North America for 8 years 5 months enlisted in 1858 and discharged in 1870. In between this time, he married a canadian lady Rachael born in Sydney, Canada, and had a son in 1864 in Halifax Nova Scotia. I found the baptism of Son George Henry, but cannot find a marriage for George and Rachael, he brought her back to Northampton and they appear on the 1871 census living in a very poor area, by the beginning of 1872 George had remarried and Rachael seems to have vanished into thin air, I have been unable to find a death certificate for her. or to find her on any passenger lists returning to Canada. Does anyone know if there are many records for this regiment, it seems George was 3 times in the defaulters book, and court martialed twice. He was recalled to the army reserves in 1878 and discahrged in 1882, any idea why this would have been as he would not have been a young man any more. There seems to be a lot of questions in this, sorry, but I am so excited to have finally found some documentation on him. I have visited the GRO at Kew 3 times without any luck.
Would be really grateful for any assistance of where to look next for more details on his army career.
Elaine

[jmduke]

Elaine:
It is likely that your GGGF transferred from the 17th Foot to the Royal Canadian Rifles Regiment (RCRR), rather than the Prince of Wales Cdn Rifles (I don't believe that there was such a regiment.) The RCRR was a British regiment raised in 1840 and disbanded in 1870, when most British troops were withdrawn from Canada. In the event, you should find the records of his discharge archived under the RCRR (that's where I found my GGF's records who also transferred from the 17th). Many military records are now accessible for a fee at FindMyPast. I did an index search and turned up a George Saunders b. 1838, Northampton - presumably your relative. I don't have a subscription, so I wasn't able to look at the record.

As for the record of his marriage, Nova Scotia Historical Vital Statistics are viewable on-line without cost (http://www.genealogysearch.org/canada/novascotia.html) There are a number of marriages for men named George Saunders in the period in question, but none would appear to be your GGGF. The site notes that although civil registration of marriages began in Nova Scotia in 1758, it did not become mandatory until 1864, presumably after George and Rachael were wed. However, there may well be a record in a parish register.

JMD

[nanbird14]

Elaine:
It is likely that your GGGF transferred from the 17th Foot to the Royal Canadian Rifles Regiment (RCRR), rather than the Prince of Wales Cdn Rifles (I don't believe that there was such a regiment.) The RCRR was a British regiment raised in 1840 and disbanded in 1870, when most British troops were withdrawn from Canada. In the event, you should find the records of his discharge archived under the RCRR (that's where I found my GGF's records who also transferred from the 17th). Many military records are now accessible for a fee at FindMyPast. I did an index search and turned up a George Saunders b. 1838, Northampton - presumably your relative. I don't have a subscription, so I wasn't able to look at the record.

As for the record of his marriage, Nova Scotia Historical Vital Statistics are viewable on-line without cost (http://www.genealogysearch.org/canada/novascotia.html) There are a number of marriages for men named George Saunders in the period in question, but none would appear to be your GGGF. The site notes that although civil registration of marriages began in Nova Scotia in 1758, it did not become mandatory until 1864, presumably after George and Rachael were wed. However, there may well be a record in a parish register.

JMD

Thankyou so much for giving me some advice on this task, as you say the regiment if the RCRR and I do have the baptism notice from the GRO, and it says he was baptised 4th October 1865 at St Matthews, by REvd GM Grant, the certificate was signed by T.C McGill, I did write to the church to ask for a search for a marriage, without success. There was no marriage entered in the registers there. I do have George's discharge papers which show that he transferred from the 17th to the RCRR in 1868 after 9 years with the 2/17th foot , discharged from the RCRR in 1870, shows he was 8 and a half years in North America, was this unusual for someone in the British Army? He recalled in 1877 and transferred to the Army Reserve in 1878 until 1882.
I will carry on looking for his wife, I have only been looking for 19 years, she will pop up sometime!!!

[jmduke]

I don't know whether 8 1/2 years in North America was unusual, but both British Army great grandfathers were here longer - 11 and 12 years. The RCRR is interesting in this respect. The regiment was formed in 1840 as a measure to counter the high rate of desertion. It was staffed by reliable veterans and were treated relatively well. They were paid more, twice the normal number were allowed to keep their families with them, they had the assurance that they would not serve outside North America, and preferential treatment in the distribution of land upon final retirement. You may be interested in the brief description on the Fort Wellington website (http://www.royalfuzileers.com/Fort-RCRR.html).

JMD

[tigger88]

Elissa we share a common name - GURNEY! Although your Gurney was born in Ireland, do you have any Winwick, Northamptonshire Gurney's on your tree? To get Patrick's military record (I too have a Joseph Gurney as a drum major in the 2nd Bn 17th Reg of Foot), try the British Army Service Records on find my past. That is where I found Joseph's record, and was able to download 4 images.
He joined up in October 1844 and was sent to many places, taking his family with him. Places included the East Indies, Gibraltar, Crimea, and 5 3/4 years in British North America which I read to mean Canada. He may have been with your ancestor.

Be right back, will just check.

[tigger88]

My great-grandfather, Patrick Gurney, born c1819 in Ireland, was a private in the 17th Foot regiment. He served in Canada in the 1860s ... several of his children were born in Quebec.... and arrived in Western Australia in 1862. I have been unable to find his army record despite searching all the 17th Foot Regiment films available through the LDS. Can anyone help with this? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Elissa
Western Australia

I have found Patricks' record on find my past - and there are 5 images for you to look at.
It's under British Army Service Records:thumbsup: 1760-1913. Hope it is the correct Patrick.
Geoffers archives reference is right, just add 30 after the WO97/1445

Lesley

[nanbird14]

I don't know whether 8 1/2 years in North America was unusual, but both British Army great grandfathers were here longer - 11 and 12 years. The RCRR is interesting in this respect. The regiment was formed in 1840 as a measure to counter the high rate of desertion. It was staffed by reliable veterans and were treated relatively well. They were paid more, twice the normal number were allowed to keep their families with them, they had the assurance that they would not serve outside North America, and preferential treatment in the distribution of land upon final retirement. You may be interested in the brief description on the Fort Wellington website (http://www.royalfuzileers.com/Fort-RCRR.html).

JMD
Thanks so much for your interest and I have looked at the Fort Wellington website, It helps to make me understand why he was there during this period, thought I had lost him as his time in Canada was between the census in England, so wouldnt have had a clue about his army career. I am desperate to find out about George's wife Rach'l as it is written on George Henry Saunders baptism document, so I am assuming her name is Rachael. Would it be usual for the wives to be with them during their army time? I know that the British Army did have 'followers' during these years but not sure if their wives were allowed.

[elissa kester]

To the subscriber who sent the following post ...

'GURNEY! Although your Gurney was born in Ireland, do you have any Winwick, Northamptonshire Gurney's on your tree? To get Patrick's military record (I too have a Joseph Gurney as a drum major in the 2nd Bn 17th Reg of Foot), try the British Army Service Records on find my past.'

I don't have any Northhamptonshire Gurney's on my tree... my tree peters out with Patrick. I have already found Patrick's army records in TNA records and have copies of them. These records give Patrick's birth as c1820 in Newbridge, Co Kildare Ireland. But I haven't been able to find any other reliable records relating to Patrick's family in Ireland. Irish BMD records seem to be mostly non-existent prior to 1800.

It occurs to me that because there was a British military garrison established in Newbridge in the early 1800s perhaps Patrick's father was also in the British army but came from somewhere else orginally. But I have no way of verifying that without the relevant baptism and marriage records so his parentage remains a mystery.

Patrick served in various regiments (including the 17th Foot) in Canada for over 20 years before his discharge about 1860. Several of his children were born in Canada in the 1850s. He arrived in Western Australia about 1862.

Elissa
Western Australia

[meaden]

Hi,
We're trying to find information about my husbands family - Thomas Connell and Michael Stenson Connell. We stumbled across a document that listed them on a roll to recieve the General Service Medal to be engraved in England. The date of service was 1866. Date of record, 1899. The list is for the 2nd Bttn 17th Leicestershire regiment.
Are we corret in assuming these men went to the Fenian Raids?
Any help would be appreciated.
Julie & Mark

[Geoffers]

Welcome to the B-G forums


Thomas Connell and Michael Stenson Connell. We stumbled across a document that listed them on a roll to recieve the General Service Medal to be engraved in England. The date of service was 1866. Date of record, 1899. The list is for the 2nd Bttn 17th Leicestershire regiment.
Are we corret in assuming these men went to the Fenian Raids?

If you go to the pay-per-view site 'findmypast' you can search for and download the service records of

Colour Sergeant Michael Stenson CONNELL (TNA reference WO97/1921/114) of the 2nd Bn 17th Foot.
(10 pages of records)

Sergeant Thomas CONNELL (TNA reference WO97/1921/132 of the 2nd Bn 17th Foot
(11 pages of records) - This includes the date and circumstances under which he lost his right leg (amputated at the thigh) in Dublin

The records include dates and places of postings which you may possibly be able to connect with the reason for the award of the medal mentioned.

[jmduke]

You are probably correct. The Canada General Service Medal and, in particular, the reasons for its having been awarded are described on the Canadian Department of Veterans Affairs web site. This British medal was awarded to both British forces and Canadian Militia for service during one or more of three events - the Fenian Raids of 1866 and 1870, and the Red River Rebellion of 1870. The 2nd Battalion of the 17th was in Canada in 1866, but left in 1868. Thus, your relatives' medals must have been by virtue of the 1866 events (I gather that there were 4 separate raids that year). The Veteran's Affairs site indicates that it was not necessary that recipients of the medal actually involved in combat, it was also given to soldiers serving in locations that might have come under attack. I doubt that you would find out exactly where your relatives were stationed from the service records - if they are similar to my those of my GGF (who was in the 1st Battalion of the 17th), the records will indicate Canada, Nova Scotia, Ireland, or whatever. I was able to get more detail about my GGF's units movements from a regimental history in a military library (Webb, E.A.H. (1911) A History of Service of the 17th (The Leistershire) Regiment. Vacher & Sons. London. 322p.).

JMD

[meaden]

Thanks JMD.
We'll track down that book you mention as we had the WW1 history which contains Thomas' son Justin, Mark's GF who settled in Australia, but we don't have the earlier volume. You have helped us to confirm our thinking.

J&M

[Geoffers]

Were you able to download their service records as per message no.38?

[meaden]

Hi Geoffers,
Yes thanks we have these records now and I'm keen to track down that book.
Cheerio
Julie

[Geoffers]

Yes thanks we have these records now and I'm keen to track down that book.

Use a search engine to look for the 'Naval & Military Press'.

When you find the site, simply put 17th in the search engine and the book you are after is 2nd in the list. It is a reprint, making it substantially cheaper than the original prints available via second hand dealers.

[thom]

I would like to find records of my G.Grandfather George Francom .He was in the 1st battalion 17th regiment of foot. He was married in the Garrison in 1858 in Montreal to Elizabeth Robinson. In 1871 Census he was in Ontario,Canada. I would like to find any Army Records available.
In particular I am looking for his discharge papers and enlistment papers.


Thanks Thom

[elissa kester]

This is not really a reply to JML2 but it involves the 17th Foot at about the same time in Canada. He mentions that his soldier married in the garrison.

My query is, are there any records for such marriages available and if so where are they? My 2xgreat-grand father, Patrick Gurney was also stationed in Canada from about 1838 to 1859 when he was discharged. At least three of his children were born in Quebec although I have only found a baptism for one of them. But I haven't been able to find a marriage for Patrick and his wife Ann Devaney or Devine. I believe they probably married in Canada rather than Ireland where he enlisted.

However I did find his service record and get a copy from TNA .... thanks again Geoffers.

Regards,
Elissa Kester

[jmduke]

This is not really a reply to JML2 but it involves the 17th Foot at about the same time in Canada. He mentions that his soldier married in the garrison.

My query is, are there any records for such marriages available and if so where are they? My 2xgreat-grand father, Patrick Gurney was also stationed in Canada from about 1838 to 1859 when he was discharged. At least three of his children were born in Quebec although I have only found a baptism for one of them. But I haven't been able to find a marriage for Patrick and his wife Ann Devaney or Devine. I believe they probably married in Canada rather than Ireland where he enlisted.

However I did find his service record and get a copy from TNA .... thanks again Geoffers.

Regards,
Elissa Kester

If he was married whilst garrisoned in either Montreal or Quebec City, there is a good chance that the marriage was recorded in the parish register of the either the garrison church or one of the local churches. Copies of these registers are lodged in the "Drouin Collection" and viewable on line. Our local public library has a subscription and I will take a quick look when I visit this week.

JMD

[jmduke]

Elissa:

I wasn't able to find a record of Patrick Gurney's marriage, but there was one baptism record - perhaps it is the one you have already? William John Gurney, born 6 January 1859, baptized 30 January, St.Patrick's Catholic Church, Montreal. The mother's name is written Ann Davaney, the Godparents were John McCarthy and Mary Fallows. If you would like an image of the register, send me a private email.

JMD


This is not really a reply to JML2 but it involves the 17th Foot at about the same time in Canada. He mentions that his soldier married in the garrison.

My query is, are there any records for such marriages available and if so where are they? My 2xgreat-grand father, Patrick Gurney was also stationed in Canada from about 1838 to 1859 when he was discharged. At least three of his children were born in Quebec although I have only found a baptism for one of them. But I haven't been able to find a marriage for Patrick and his wife Ann Devaney or Devine. I believe they probably married in Canada rather than Ireland where he enlisted.

However I did find his service record and get a copy from TNA .... thanks again Geoffers.

Regards,
Elissa Kester

[jmduke]

Elissa:
Hold the phone! I found a reference to the marriage of Patrick Gurney and Ann Deveny [sic] in 1848, St.James Street Methodist Church, Montreal in the Quebec Archives index. I'll see if I can find the register entry on my next trip to the library. This raises an interesting question - Although Patrick was in the 17th at time of his son's birth (1859), he would have been in a different regiment in 1848 (or not in the army at all), since the 17th was in Ireland at the time.

JMD

[elissa kester]

Hello JMD
Thanks for your response. I have seen the Drouin records so I have a copy of William John's baptism although I couldn't find baptism records for his siblings James Evan (born c1851) and Susan/Susannah (born c1855) both born in Quebec/Canada. A marriage date of 1848 would be feasible as he would have been about 29 then and all known children were born after that.

I'd be very grateful if you could find the marriage record for Patrick and Ann (and so would hundreds of his descendants). Maybe there are baptism records for James and Susan at the St James Street church as well. Although Patrick was born in Ireland I believe his father was not Irish as Gurney is not an Irish name and this might explain both Catholic and Protestant records.

Although Patrick enlisted (1838) in the 17th Foot, according to his service records he later transferred to the 65th, 74th, 52nd, 23rd, and the 54th. He was not discharged until July 1859. In 1848 he might have been in Halifax or London Ontario.

Thanks for your offer to look at the St James Street records. It would be much appreciated.

Regards,
Elissa Kester

[jmduke]

Hi Elissa:

Good news, I have found the register entry for Patrick Gurney's marriage in the Drouin Collection. The fact that it does not turn up in a search suggests that it was missed in the indexing process. In any case, I was able to locate it by cross referencing with the index of non-Catholic marriages in the Montreal area available on the Quebec national archives site (http://www.banq.qc.ca/collections/genealogie/inst_recherche_ligne/instr_etats_civils/mariage_montreal/index.html).

Here is a transcription (St. James Street Methodist Church 1848 - Folio 18):

On this thirty first day of July one thousand eight hundred and forty-eight Patrick Gurney bachelor private in Her Majesty's twenty third regiment, and Ann Deveny spinster of this city were married after due publication of banns in the presence of the (sub...?) being witnesses by me
(signed)
John Jenkins, Minister
Patrick Gurney (his mark)
Ann Deveny (her mark)
Nicholas (M...?)
Margaret M...?) (her mark)

I looked in the St. James registers for 1851-53 and 1854-56 for James and Susan, but didn't find anything. I also looked in the 1851 census of Canada and Montreal directories from the period on the off chance that Ann had family in the city, but again no luck.

Hope this helps,

Murray

[elissa kester]

Hi Murray
Thank you so much for looking this up for me (and all the other Gurney descendants who've been looking). This has been a major brickwall for many years. It's great to be able to add another piece ot the puzzle.

Thanks again... it's much appreciated.

Regards,
Elissa

[QUOTE=jmduke;458283]Hi Elissa:

Good news, I have found the register entry for Patrick Gurney's marriage in the Drouin Collection. The fact that it does not turn up in a search suggests that it was missed in the indexing process. In any case, I was able to locate it by cross referencing with the index of non-Catholic marriages in the Montreal area available on the Quebec national archives site (http://www.banq.qc.ca/collections/genealogie/inst_recherche_ligne/instr_etats_civils/mariage_montreal/index.html).

Here is a transcription (St. James Street Methodist Church 1848 - Folio 18):

On this thirty first day of July one thousand eight hundred and forty-eight Patrick Gurney bachelor private in Her Majesty's twenty third regiment, and Ann Deveny spinster of this city were married after due publication of banns in the presence of the (sub...?) being witnesses by me
(signed)
John Jenkins, Minister
Patrick Gurney (his mark)
Ann Deveny (her mark)
Nicholas (M...?)
Margaret M...?) (her mark)

[elissa kester]

Hello Murray
Further to your last post re the marriage of Patrick Gurney and Ann Deveney I forwarded the Quebec National Archives link to my cousin who is a librarian here in Australia. She was able to follow it up and discovered that the marriage was incorrectly indexed as Murray and Deseny. Thanks again for your help with this search.

Regards,
Elissa Kester

[jmduke]

Hello Murray
Further to your last post re the marriage of Patrick Gurney and Ann Deveney I forwarded the Quebec National Archives link to my cousin who is a librarian here in Australia. She was able to follow it up and discovered that the marriage was incorrectly indexed as Murray and Deseny. Thanks again for your help with this search.

Regards,
Elissa Kester

Elissa:

Glad I could help. I've lost count of the number times that I have been frustrated by indexing errors. My particular brickwall is my GGF William Duke, who was in the garrison in Montreal at about the same time as your ancestor. I've been trying for years to find him in the 1841 Census of England, which was taken when he was 15, prior to his enlistment in the 17th Foot. I thought I had finally found him a couple of years ago - a William Duke of the right age popped up in the one of the on-line indices, living not far from Bath, where my GGF is believed to have been born. After viewing the original image and cross-checking with subsequent censuses and county directories, it was clear that the surname was Dike, not Duke. The name was transcribed as Deke in another well-known on-line service, and (correctly) as Dike in a third. There's a lesson in this for all family historians.

Murray