Catholic Marriage

[pompylen]

I have had it suggested that after searching about 2 years for the marriage of my 4xg grandfather 1780-92 using all the usual index’s of surrounding counties plus spending a fortune on cd’s, fiche & trips to the RO, that it’s time to consider the fact that a Catholic of that period would most likely settle for a clandestine marriage preformed by a visiting priest. My only argument is why he would bother to christen the children but what do you think? Is this likely, I’d be very interested to know your views.

[Wirral]

One could be for religious reasons, the other for secular ones.

In order to obtain "Right of Settlement" & hence be able to claim Parish Poor Relief, you need to be able to prove which parish you belonged to - eg where you were born. (You could also have the Right by being employed/apprenticed, but that's another story). A baptism record in the (C of E) parish records would be sufficient. However, if they were devout Catholics, they may have also been baptised in a Catholic church or by a visiting Catholic priest.

[pompylen]

Wirral, thank you for your reply, I have searched the Settlements and although I have found two with the same surname not the man I’m looking for, on the off chance I searched the indexes of where the two came from to no avail. The frustrating thing is I have traced the one family with the same surname in the area back to 1618 but can’t find the birth or marriage for mine. The first I knew of him was the christening of his daughter 1794 at the local parish church and many records of the family have been found at both Catholic & C of E. I thought about the Militia but if he was ‘devout’ I doubt he would sign allegiance to the church. I can’t believe both records can’t be found. The thing is were now

[Peter Goodey]

The one doesn't preclude the other. A civil marriage plus an optional church marriage is the norm in many places. (presumably a CoE marriage would count as a civil ceremony in the eyes of RCs). If he was likely to be in a position to leave any estate to his children, would he want them to be bastards? Did he leave a will, by the way? If so how did he word the bequests?

[Colin Moretti]

I believe that it's unlikely that there was not a CoE marriage at that time, even if they were Catholic unless the persons concerned were very devout and unconcerned about the consequences. To quote Michael Gandy from the introduction of one of his very handy booklets*:
Between 1754 and 1837 a legal marriage had to be in the Church of England. Very many Catholics therefore went through two ceremonies and many entries of Catholic marriage survive. However priests were aware that their marriages had no legal force and that therefore registration was not actually necessary. Richer catholics needed the state marriage to ensure legitimacy and inheritance while poorer Catholics were affected as regards Parish Relief and the Acts of Settlement.If any RC registers survive for the area you're interested in then the relevant one of Michael's booklets should give details. I can post details of them if needed.

Good luck

Colin

*Catholic Missions and Registers, 1700-1880, Michael Gandy, in 6 volumes covering England, Scotland and Wales

[pompylen]

Thank you Wirrel, Peter and Colin for all your thoughts and suggestions, maybe I’ve become paranoid with the reasons for Hardwicke Marriage Act of 1754 not thinking he would weighup making his children Bastards. He lived at Sedgley Staffs and although I’ve had a search made at the Litchfield archives for any Will, none was found, according to his burial entry he was a Lime Burner so not a rich man, I also made a search of the RC registers hald at St Chad’s Birmingham only finding earlier family members. Of course this is assuming he came from the same county, (he could have been invited there by relations already living there for work or something.) I suppose I would need to search all County RC records Collin, so any locations of these records would be a great help. As I mentioed I’ve looked at surrounding county indexes but ofcourse they are only indexes, you have all convinced me I need to keep looking, What a moutain. It’s great to have other opinions, thanks again.

[Colin Moretti]

I'm afraid that I don't have Michael's booklet covering that part of the country. You need Volume 2, covering the Midlands and East Anglia; you can order a copy from most suppliers of genealogical books or directly from him:Michael Gandy
140 Hampden Way
Southgate
London
N14 5AXSend him a stamped addressed envelope for details.

Michael claims to ... have listed all missions for which registers are known.... He gives the location of the original registers and their coverage, and similar details of any transcriptions or copies.

You can find a list of some of the transcriptions on the Catholic Central Library website.

Good luck

Colin

[Colin Moretti]

These are the register transcriptions listed on the CCL site for Staffordshire:
Swynnerton
Baptisms 1810-1842
Marriages 1816-1841
Confirmations 1827-1842
Deaths 1813-1819

Walsall, St Mary's
Baptisms 1830-1862
Marriages 1830-1843
Burials 1826-1858
Confirmations 1820-1843

Bloxwich, St Thomas
Baptisms 1805-1829
Deaths 1807-1829
Marriages 1807-1829
Confirmations 1808-1826
This list refers to the typescripts, and a few other printed books, on loan from the Catholic Family History Society and held by CCL. The library is not able to accept requests to undertake research of these registers and is in any case closed at present while it moves to Farnborough in Hampshire.

Colin

[Peter Goodey]

I don't know if there's anything of interest to you here but it might be worth looking at the Society of Genealogists' holdings for Staffordshire which include transcriptions (presumably) for several RC churches.

[pompylen]

Once again thank you Peter and Colin for the information, I'll Check what I can on line and get in touch with Michael Gandy, at least I have somewhere to go now and will let you know if I get lucky. There is one member of his family I haven't found on the 1841 census so think I will also ask every county forum to help as she may be with grandparents?
Appreciate your time and interest
Thanks Len

[Peter Goodey]

"I will also ask every county forum to help "

You really will irritate people if you post an identical message in each county forum. Please just post one message in one place (eg the census forum).

[pompylen]

Never noticed this forum Peter, I must have a good tour of this site and post 'One' general request.

Thanks

[uksearch]

I must have missed this the first time around. Two or three years ago I wrote to Salford Diocese to clarify something or other about Catholic Marriage Legislation. As a result I wrote the following
However not many people are aware of the fact that until Easter 1908, to get married outside of the Catholic church did not go against the teachings of the church in this country. It was only after the decree Ne Temere was proposed in 1907 that it became a condition of having a valid marriage in the eyes of the Catholic Church.

For the details, take a look at a search engine, but before 1908 a (Catholic) marriage between a couple did not have to have any ceremony to be valid in the eyes of the church. All they needed to do was to consent to the marriage themselves. I have no idea how many people were aware of this prior to 1908. One thing for certain is that the clergy would possibly have not wanted this to be common knowledge as it would have had some affect on their earnings from marriage fees.

Even today under the present Catholic Marriage Legislation the blessing of a union by a priest, in certain circumstances, is not essential to the marriage sacrament. If a Catholic couple wish to marry in a place where, for a month, there will be no priest qualified to join them in marriage, they may simply express their mutual consent before a couple of witnesses, and thereby they are validly married in the eyes of the church. If a couple is in danger of death, they can also marry even when there is no delay in the arrival of a priest.