What the 'real, name?

[lindsey]

I have recently obtained the death cert of a person whom I thought was my Step Great Grandmother married to my G Grandfather Thomas Lilly. The death cert states she was a spinster! However , in the name column, it says ' Ellen Lilly otherwise Rooker'.

Can anyone explain to me which would be her correct name. She died in 1947.

(I always thought that aka or oka was the assumed name but i think i maybe wrong. I am going by the way CRB checks are listed ).

Lindsey

[Wirral]

Did you ever find the marriage of Thomas Lilly & Ellen Rooker? Maybe they were never legally married. The more I look through the records, the more I find that our ancestors weren't as conformist as I imagined!

[lindsey]

Yes , you are absolutley correct!! They were not married!!! But who was she and what was her real name? Was it as the death cert says 'Ellen Lilly otherwise Rooker'--- or was it Rooker and she assumed the name Lilly?

Any ideas?

[Pam Downes]

If Ellen's death was registered in Bromsgrove registration district in the March quarter 1947, then her death was registered under the name of Rooker. If the certificate says she was a spinster then I would assume that she and Thomas never married, but that she was known as Ellen Lilly.
Incidentally, was it Thomas who registered the death because he would certainly give true information whereas anyone else would only be able to give information known to them which may not have been the truth.
Pam Downes
Sorry Lindsey, we cross-posted.

[Geoffers]

the death cert of a person whom I thought was my Step Great Grandmother married to my G Grandfather Thomas Lilly. The death cert states she was a spinster! However, in the name column, it says ' Ellen Lilly otherwise Rooker'. Can anyone explain to me which would be her correct name.
Her correct name is whatever she wanted to be known by. Which is perhaps not what you wanted to read. How you treat it, to an extent, depends on why you ask - e.g. is the reason for asking so that she can be included in an computer FH programme; or otherwise recorded in your notes?

Geoffers

[Pam Downes]

You can call yourself any name you want as long as it is not with intent to defraud.
http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/basics/changeofname.htm
(amongst others found by entering 'deed poll' into google)
If they were living together in the 1920/30/40s, then I'm pretty certain Ellen would have called herself Mrs Lilly, for propriety's sake.
Pam Downes

[lindsey]

If Ellen's death was registered in Bromsgrove registration district in the March quarter 1947, then her death was registered under the name of Rooker. If the certificate says she was a spinster then I would assume that she and Thomas never married, but that she was known as Ellen Lilly.
Incidentally, was it Thomas who registered the death because he would certainly give true information whereas anyone else would only be able to give information known to them which may not have been the truth.
Pam Downes
Sorry Lindsey, we cross-posted.

Yes, the death was registered in the March quarter of 1947 but in the name column it states " ELLEN LILLY otherwise ROOKER".

It wasnt Thomas who registered her death, he died in 1937.His daughter, Grace Lilly, whom Ellen lived with after his death until her death registered her death. She was the family member who kept all the records and passed them on to my mother, the last in line of the Lillys. She knew all there was to know about the family and was a very 'correct' in terms of family.

May be as Geoffers says, she was known as Lilly so thats why my G Aunt put that down as her name BUT I do know that when my G Grandfather died, she resented having to have her live with her (she was a spinster too, a nurse) and being such a 'correct' person, I thought she may have put her real/legal name as opposed to her assumed name.

I just wondered what 'otherwise' meant on a death cert in the name column and if there was a laid down format for registering real names as opposed to assumed names?

I suppose i will never know!!!

[Pam Downes]

Yes, the death was registered in the March quarter of 1947 but in the name column it states " ELLEN LILLY otherwise ROOKER".
It wasnt Thomas who registered her death, he died in 1937.His daughter, Grace Lilly, whom Ellen lived with after his death until her death registered her death. She was the family member who kept all the records and passed them on to my mother, the last in line of the Lillys. She knew all there was to know about the family and was a very 'correct' in terms of family.
May be as Geoffers says, she was known as Lilly so thats why my G Aunt put that down as her name BUT I do know that when my G Grandfather died, she resented having to have her live with her (she was a spinster too, a nurse) and being such a 'correct' person, I thought she may have put her real/legal name as opposed to her assumed name.
I just wondered what 'otherwise' meant on a death cert in the name column and if there was a laid down format for registering real names as opposed to assumed names?
I suppose i will never know!!!Ellen's death appears in the GRO Index under Rooker, which means that Rooker was her true name regardless of what else she called herself. But the death certificate reads 'Lilly' because that was the name she was known by and then 'otherwise Rooker' i.e. her true name.
I've just realised that if there were other papers in the name of Ellen Lilly then regardless of your G. Aunt's feelings she would have had to have reported the death as Lilly otherwise Rooker. By 'other papers' the main thing would have been the certificate of death signed by the doctor - if Ellen was registered with him/known to him as Lilly, then that's the name he would have written on the form.
Pam Downes

[lindsey]

Thank you Pam for that explanation, its now making sense!!!
The only paperwork we have is the receipt from the undertaker, which states: 'Grave for one' for the late 'Ellen Rooker Lilly', then it sates 'Interred in family grave'. My aunt kept ALL papers relating to her other family members, except Ellens, perhaps to 'cover up' he lack of marital staus, being so 'correct'!!!

I have written to the vicar where she is buried to see if there are any other of her family in the grave. She is not buried with her 'assumed' husband my G Grandfather, he is at another church with his wife, daughter and sons!!

Thank you for your help. I now realise how important it is not to assume and interpret things!!!

[lindsey]

Just another query.

I looked at the BMD index and Ellen is listed both under LILLY and ROOKER, (same GRO ref for both). Why would that be?

[DebbieAnn]

Found a birth for Constance Ellen Rooker in Mar qtr 1887 in Stourbridge (vol 6c pg 195). Stourbridge is in Worcestershire and registers are now in Dudley.

Birth record for Thomas Lilly in Sep qtr 1883 in Dudley (vol 6c pg 139).

Ellen's death record is in Bromsgrove, whose registers are divided between Bromsgrove and Dudley.

1901 census shows 17-yr-old Thomas Lilly living with his widowed grandmother Mary Ann in Dudley.

Might this Constance Ellen Rooker be your Ellen Lilly?

Debbie

[Ladkyis]

She would be indexed under the two names because they are both on the death certificate and the reference number is the same because there is only one record of her death.
Ann

[Pam Downes]

Just another query.

I looked at the BMD index and Ellen is listed both under LILLY and ROOKER, (same GRO ref for both). Why would that be?Believe or not, I did look for Ellen Lilly in Janaury 1947. Unfortunately I looked on the basis of a five letter word coming before a six-letter word (i.e. Lilly coming before Lilley). I have now given myself a sharp slap on the wrist, and Ann has given you the reason for the double entry.
Pam Downes

[Pam Downes]

Found a birth for Constance Ellen Rooker in Mar qtr 1887 in Stourbridge (vol 6c pg 195). Stourbridge is in Worcestershire and registers are now in Dudley.
Might this Constance Ellen Rooker be your Ellen Lilly?
Hi Debbie,
According to the GRO Index Ellen was 79 when she died in 1947 which according to my calculations means she was born c1868.
Unless of course G. Auntie was reeking the final revenge by giving a false age. On the other hand you have to sign the register which says something about 'facts true to the best of your knowledge', and if auntie was so proper it's unlikely that she would lie. On the other hand, unless she flashed the death certificate around the other family members who would know that she'd lied........... :D
Or did the doctor put the wrong age on his form, the registrar just copied it, auntie didn't check properly before she signed, etc, etc.
We'll have to wait till Lindsey comes back with a bit more info about Thomas (and possibly Ellen).
Pam Downes

[DebbieAnn]

Well, there's Ellen Rooker, b: Stourbridge, Sep qtr 1867 (vol 6c pg 201). :)

Debbie

[Guy Etchells]

I have recently obtained the death cert of a person whom I thought was my Step Great Grandmother married to my G Grandfather Thomas Lilly. The death cert states she was a spinster! However , in the name column, it says ' Ellen Lilly otherwise Rooker'.

Can anyone explain to me which would be her correct name. She died in 1947.

(I always thought that aka or oka was the assumed name but i think i maybe wrong. I am going by the way CRB checks are listed ).

Lindsey

Both names were her correct name and both names were perfectly legal.

I think however you are really asking what name was she registered under, which is a different question.

There are a number of possibilities for having two names.
She could be illegitimate in which case it is likely she was registered in her mothers name, but later used her father's name.
She could be a step-child and whilst young been known under her step-father's name but reverted to her birth name later on in life.
She could have lived with a man but never married
She could have adopted a professional name as an actress or performer etc.
The list goes on and on.

The point is if she used a name then dropped it completely she would then have changed her name to the new one.
If, as many did, she adopted a new name but carried on using her old name in some situations both names would be valid.
Cheers
Guy

[lindsey]

Thank you to all of you for your responses, they are all very much appreciated as a fledgling Family historian!!!

My G Grandfather THOMAS J R LILLY was born c 1861 as he was married in 1887 to a PHOEBE ANN PICKRELL aged 26yrs. So I am pretty sure the Thomas Lilly born in 1883 is not him . I have the marriage cert but I have not got his birth cert yet.

I have ordered his the death cert but was told by the GRO today that there is no death cert for him under the ref i gave them, I have double checked on the BMD and 1837 and it is correct ref, so i've given more details and re-orederd! Was that right? I also sent them the page from the Index with the ref no on just so they know what i'm looking at!!

THOMAS J R LILLY did have a son, which would appeare to be the first child, Thomas P LILLY(Pickrell- his mothers maiden name) who was aged 1 year on the 1891 census but does not appear to be with the family in 1901 census. He was just 9 months older than my Great Aunt Grace,( who registered the death of Ellen). I have never heard of him and i wonder if he died between census's. It was also suggested to me that he may be with relatives or away at a fee paying school as his father ( my GG father)was a charteded acountant!!? I think the former, that he had died.

ELLEN ROOKER LILLY was apparently 79 when she died so I dont think the Constance Ellen Rooker found on the 1887 census is the correct one as the age is substantially different.

Debbie, i have sent for the birth cert of the Ellen Rooker born Sep qtr 1867 which would fit with her death age of 79 on the 14/2/1947. I am not sure what I expect to find from it, but its worth a try. I have also written to the Vicar of Cofton Hackett Church to see if there is anyone else buried with her in the grave she is in, despite it being a 'grave for one' -- it later on the receipt became 'interred in family grave', so its possible there are others. There is no MI as I have sent for the fiche and checked for Rookers and not a one to be found, but may be they couldnt afford a headstone and i am sure my Aunt wouldnt have paid for one, as it was all so 'improper'!!!

There is also one other thought that was prompted by Guy (thank you for jogging my memory)

My mother (Born 1927) has said to me that her mother ( my grandmother) said to her when she was a young girl that ELLEN R LILLY(known as Ma or Mar by all family members) had 'something' to do with the theatre?? but doesnt know what. She remembers her as a very small, very quiet old lady. She also remembers her mother saying to her that she thought my Great Aunt Grace (whom she lived with until her death) bullied Ellen a lot!!! I wonder why!!!!I wouldont think the Constance Ellen Rooker found on the 1887 census is the correct one as the age is substantially different.

Debbie, i have sent for the birth cert of the Ellen Rooker born Sep qtr 1867 which would fit with her death age of 79 on the 14/2/1947. I am not sure what I expect to find from it, but its worth a try. I have also written to the Vicar of Cofton Hackett Church to see if there is anyone else buried with her in the grave she is in, despite it being a 'grave for one' -- it later on the receipt became 'interred in family grave', so its possible there are others. There is no MI as I have sent for the fiche and checked for Rookers and not a one to be found, but may be they couldnt afford a headstone and i am sure my Aunt wouldnt have paid for one, as it was all so 'improper'!!!

There is also one other thought that was prompted by Guy (thank you for jogging my memory)

My mother (Born 1927) has said to me that her mother ( my grandmother) said to her when she was a young girl that ELLEN R LILLY(known as Ma or Mar by all family members) had 'something' to do with the theatre?? but doesnt know what. She remembers her as a very small, very quiet old lady. She also remembers her mother saying to her that she thought my Great Aunt Grace (whom she lived with until her death) bullied Ellen a lot!!! I wonder why!!!!I wouldnt know where to begin looking at theatres for her, esp as it was only a family 'rumour' and my Mum says she cant picture the shy retiring Ellen in the theatre at all!!

Im still baffled and still on the trail of Ellen!!

Lindsey

[lindsey]

Please forgive me as I seem to have repeated some of the text in my previous post, i dont know how i did that!!!

[Pam Downes]

Don't worry about the repeating text Lindsey. It's a blip in the system and even affects Rod at times :)
It usually happens when you try to type a long message which is why you sometimes see messages split into two or three.
Pam Downes

[lindsey]

Thanks Pam , at least I know im not 'repeating' myself, I did get a bit worried when i read it through after posting.

Perhaps you could tell me how i use part of someones reply as a 'quote' to respond to? I have tried highlighting the relevant 'bit' but i just seem to get the whole message in the 'quote'.

Lindsey

[Pam Downes]

Perhaps you could tell me how i use part of someones reply as a 'quote' to respond to? I have tried highlighting the relevant 'bit' but i just seem to get the whole message in the 'quote'. It is really simple.
In the bottom right-hand corner of every message is a box which says 'quote'. Click on it. You then get a 'reply to thread' box with the previous message in it with [ QUOTE] boxes either side. Delete any parts of the message that you don't need, but don't delete the quote boxes or the brackets.
Alternatively if there are several points to which you want to reply put an end quote box at the end of the first point (note the '/ ' before the word). Write your reply. Then type an open 'quote' box before the next bit to which you want to reply, with a close quote box at the end.
If you're still not too sure, send yourself a couple of sentences in a private message. Then split it into quotes and send it back to yourself.
Good luck.
Pam

[Linda]

If you're still not too sure, send yourself a couple of sentences in a private message

or you could play around with quotes in messages on the "test" forum

http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=17

but don't bother telling people to ignore the post, 'cos we just don't ignore messages like that. We're just too..... curious ;)

Linda

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

or you could play around with quotes in messages on the "test" forum

http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=17

but don't bother telling people to ignore the post, 'cos we just don't ignore messages like that. We're just too..... curious ;)

Linda

Or in my case ....... just downright nosey!!!! :D

[Pam Downes]

So............I wonder why I told Lindsey to send a message to herself :D
Pam Downes
who like everyone else checks those sort of forums 'just in case' someone has posted to a wrong thread and can then be pointed in the right direction :D :D

[lindsey]

I just thought i'd let you know that think I have found a birth date for Ellen Rooker Lilly, 9th July, but no year. I found this in an old 'birthday book' that belonged to my Great Aunt Grace,Lilly the very Proper, Aunt, who gave it to my mother . It has birthdates in of many ancestors but they are mainly listed under the day of the year in the book, but not the year. We have them now and I realise i have done the same, they are reminders for birthadys really.

I am waiting for the birth cert of Ellen Rooker Lilly from Brierly hill/Stourbridge, it should arive tomorrow so if the birtdate on the birth cert corresponds with the one in the Birthday book, I will have found my elusive Ellen!! Heres hoping!!

My Great Aunt also gave my mother another birthday book which belonged to her mother, my great Grandmother Phoebe Ann Lilly, and what a treasure that is!!It has births in from 1830/40 ect, so will be invaluable in my research, even though we dont know who half of the entries are, i can do more 'discovering'!!!!

Will keep you posted when i find out.

Lindsey

[lindsey]

Ellen Rooker Lilly.... birth cert arrived today and I have finally found her!!

Born 9th July 1867, Brierly Hill Staffs

Its the same day as the entry in the birthday book of my g aunt!!!! ( the entry written in by my mother says Grannie Lilly)

Whooopee!!!

Thanks to all of you for your help in tracking down the elusive Ellen who was living 'over the brush' with my grandfather!!!

[DebbieAnn]

|jumphappy |woohoo| |cheers|

Debbie

[lindsey]

Thanks Debbie

Love the gremlins!! just how i feel!!!

This is my FIRST DISCOVERY!!! since 'starting out' and what a great feeling.....and now Im off on trails i never knew existed!!

A real big thanks to all who helped

Lindsey

[Linda]

That's great news Lindsay! |woohoo|

I wish you lots of success in your future research

Linda