Movement of population

[Davran]

The notion that past generations stayed put in one place is a fallacy in my family:

My father's grandfather was born in Norfolk and moved to Sunderland with his parents, where he married a woman who was born in Bilston, Staffordshire. Their daughter married a man whose parents came from Renfrew in Scotland. My father and his parents moved to Lincolnshire and my mother was born in Surrey.

My mother's ggrandfather was also born in Norfolk and moved to Middlesex (various addresses on different censuses). His son lived in Broughton, Lancs (where he married a woman from Wolstanton, Staffs), Greenwich and finally Hampton Wick, Middx.

Another family member lived in Camberwell, then Broughton, Lancs, and Glasgow - his children moved to Jersey.

Yet another was born in Lambeth, lived in Camberwell, then Harpenden (Herts), Stellenbosch (S Africa), Greenwich and Gillingham (Kent).

So the idea of the extended family all living in one place did not exist for my family, though the old people did live with their children.

On the other hand, my husband comes from a long-established Hastings family, who lived in the area for many generations.

So, are some families naturally restless and others more settled, or are some more successful in their way of life than others and able to stay in one place?

[Mythology]

My theory, which could doubtless be disproven in ten seconds:

The rich moved because they could afford to - they went wherever they fancied.
The poor moved because they had no choice - they had to follow the work.
The middling ones who were just ticking over comfortably stayed put.

[Peter Goodey]

Actually I didn't know there was such a notion. It's more of a surprise to me tracking families through the developing industrial revolution to find some who hadn't moved.

At the start of the 19th century 75% of the population lived in rural areas - a century later only 25%.

[Mythology]

I agree, I'm used to finding them moving, much more often than not, but one pair really take the biscuit. I am, once again, indebted to Greg Dunn for transcribing what Sophia Debenham wrote in 1893.

Thomas Debenham emigrated to the USA in 1851.
Sophia says:
"Thomas married Janet Clive and after her death Mary Ann Gatesell of London, his present help mate, and mother of his 3 children."
Elsewhere in the story, speaking of the late 1850s, Sophia says:
"In the mean time, Thomas had sent for his wife Miss Janet Clive, and sister Anna came out from England with her."
Janet Clive and Anna Debenham are on the "Kangaroo", arriving New York 11 May 1859.
Thomas and Janet have then married, and in 1860 are in Newark, New Jersey.
I had nothing on Janet's death, but knew that Thomas had been back over here later, as his second marriage was in London (Islington) in 1868.
Doing an unsuccessful search on the 1861 for one of my Colemans, and resorting to "anybody born in somewhere approximating to Poslingford 1825 plus or minus ten", what did I find?
Thomas and Janet are already back over here, in Hackney, and Janet died later the same year in Hastings!
I must be honest - if that hadn't cropped up by accident, with Janet having only just gone out there in 1859 and with them being in America in 1860, I very much doubt if I'd have thought of *looking* for them here in 1861.

Who needs Concorde? ;)

[jeeb]

At the start of the 19th century 75% of the population lived in rural areas - a century later only 25%.

Peter has hit the nail on the head here, pre the Industrial Revolution a large percentage of the population were employed in occupations, especially agricuture, that did not require them to move great distances. Many families can often be traced for hundreds of years staying within a twenty mile radius. Other families moved small distances with work, staying short periods in different parishes. You will usually find them described as sojourners when they marry. There has always been a migration towards London and the larger towns of course especially in the second half of the 19th century. Other families can often be found baptising children in many far flung parihes around the country but again their occupation is usually the reason eg Boatmen or Travelling actors. Transport was very different from today and journeys would have been long and arduous and it amazes me just how much and far our ancestors did move around and how many emigrated.
Cheers Jeremy.

[BeeE586]

One thing that has always puzzled me is just HOW did people know where to move to for work ? How did my 2 gr grandfather Benjamin Bridgwater, a spade maker living WOR Old Swinford, know that he could find work in DBY Staveley c1857 ? How did my several gr grandfather Robert Tillotson, living in YKS Keighley, know that he would find work as a paper maker at Dam Flask Mill on the outskirts of Sheffield c1750 ? Ben was a bachelor and was a Lodger in 1861 but Robert already had a family - how would they travel and how would he know that there would be a home for his family ?

Were advertising leaflets sent out by would-be employers offering both work and living accommodation ? Did recruiting agents travel the country with a similar offer ? How difficult was it for a man to move his wife and family and his household goods 250 years ago ?

I know that all sorts of edged tools were exported from my area from the 16th century onwards, largely by pack animals - would the same animals perhaps import people on the return journey ?

Can anyone help ?

Eileen

[jeeb]

Hi Eileen,
People would go to the hiring fairs where they would 'put themselves up for sale' and this may result in finding a job several miles away. People also often moved to places where other family members lived so they had probably been informed of a situation vacant. Sometimes people just went in search of work and stayed at inns or took lodgings, look at the censuses to see how many families lodged with other families. Transport was on horseback or on a horse drawn cart or stagecoach for the wealthier but most poor people would have walked.
Jeremy

[jeeb]

[QUOTE=BeeE586
I know that all sorts of edged tools were exported from my area from the 16th century onwards, largely by pack animals - would the same animals perhaps import people on the return journey ?

Can anyone help ?

Eileen[/QUOTE]

Hi Eileen,
If you are interested in tool making in Sheffield you may be interested to know that large granite stones were carved into grinding stones on Kinder Scout in the Peak District, some of these stones remain today still half calved. They were calved into large stone wheels and then apparently pulled behind pack mules to be used in the steel mills of Sheffield about 15 miles away.
Jeremy

[Mythology]

"People also often moved to places where other family members lived"
Or even friends.

One of my less affluent fellows did quite well for himself in the States. A biography politely describes him as a "self-made man in the strictest sense of the word" who "received but scant education and remained on his father's farm until he was 20 yrs of age".
I found a land grant - but it did not tie in with where he lived.
I tracked it down on the 1850 census, and, in an area where the head of almost every family is born in Ireland, in the middle of all the fields of shamrock, found a little cluster of English, all with names familiar from the parish register of my fellow's home village.
Looks to me as though he's written home saying "come on out, lads, it's a much better life" and, when his mates have expressed interest, as government land was dirt cheap, has bought a patch on their behalf so that they have somewhere definite to move to.

This is rather like the pattern described by my Irish friend across the road, who came over here when he was 14 - one person in the village comes to London, gets sorted out, either writes back with generous gifts for the family or pops back home dolled up to the nines and full of it, and others are encouraged to do the same, using him as their "agent" on arrival.

Sometimes, one person is all it takes to start the ball rolling.

[BeeE586]

Jeremy - Thank you for that. Have you read the books by David Hey on the Metalworkers of the area and the transport of goods ? Time was when I could walk on Kinder and in the Peak - sadly no longer - so I have seen the half carved stones of which you speak, and they are also mentioned in inventories that I have read. I don't think they were of granite, though, I think it was the Millstone Grit.

I know of the hiring fairs but weren't they largely for agricultural workers and frequently for jobs of short duration ? Through consulting the Index to Cutlers' Apprentices I know that lads did sometimes come from far afield, and I suppose this would be true of anyone taking up an apprenticeship. However, their work and accommadation would be secure and such men, when qualified, would quite probably settle in the area. It is the poorer people I would like to know more about - a move to a village or town a few miles away is one thing, but to set off and walk a hundred or more miles with two or three children in the hope of finding work and accommodation doesn't bear thinking about. There were the laws of Settlement, footpads,
'vagabonds and sturdy beggars', the state of the roads - it must have been a hazardous undertaking.

Eileen

[Peter Goodey]

"I know that all sorts of edged tools were exported from my area from the 16th century onwards"

Earlier than that I believe. The Canterbury Tales mentioned a "long knife from Sheffield".

[Peter Goodey]

"One thing that has always puzzled me is just HOW did people know where to move to for work?"


Another reason for moving was simply being booted out by the Poor Law Guardians. Recruiting agents from industrial areas soon realised that they only had to sell the idea to the Guardians and they'd do all the work for them.

Wasn't there such a case on Who Do You Think You Are?

[Peter Goodey]

"most poor people would have walked"
Or travelled by boat - by sea and, by the mid 19th century, by canal.

Many miners in the Kent coalfields came from Scotland. I'm guessing without bothering to check that the typical way of getting from Scotland to Kent would have been by sea.

[Guy Etchells]

In addition do not forget the landed gentry who owned estates in various parts of the country. People would be employed by them and sometimes "poached" by visiting gentry. Others would be employed because relatives were already working for the family and perhaps employed on a distant estate.
Cheers
Guy

[kazrbutler]

One thing that was apparently common with miners (and still happened in the C20th), is that one member of the family would move on and find work in another area. Once they had found work, and were established they would notify other members of the family who would follow them with the promise of work. Often find mining families moving to one area together, cousins living very close to each other.

With farming tenants and some industries, mining included, knowing that there were connections between different areas through landowners means workers may not always have been travelling blind, but have a known destination.

Years ago when studying for my Geography degree, I came across a census record of a worker in an industry in the Black Country. The worker was born in France (most unusual, as a lot of the population had been born in Ireland). I did wonder if there was some connection in the industry with France, as the industry did occur in France - but could not identify the area of the country the person was born in, as I could not find the village.

Actually, I never had a great interest in history - but historical geography, covering changes during industrial revolution, movement of population, development of towns and cities, and spread of disease was fascinating. I was very disappointed that I could not continue this in my final year.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

"most poor people would have walked"
Or travelled by boat - by sea and, by the mid 19th century, by canal.

Many miners in the Kent coalfields came from Scotland. I'm guessing without bothering to check that the typical way of getting from Scotland to Kent would have been by sea.

I often wonder how my BOWDEN family from Cornwall in 1871, got to the Durham coalfields. :confused:

[HelenVSmith]

The hiring fairs also were used for more qualified people as well as the ag. labs. Certainly it was an initial year but that could be extended if the person proved suitable.

I have a mole catcher who moved from village to village along the Pennines.
I also have an ag lab who had 13 children each baptised in a differnt village ranging from mid-sussex to the eastern tip of Kent.
I have stonemasons/quarrymen from Mabe in Cornwall who went to the Isle of Wight? on a job and some stayed there.

Then of course once the railway/canal moved into an area there were transport routes.

Once the Industrial revolution hit the North, there were people recruiting labour from the south to fill the ag lab spots that were vacant due to teh higher wages in teh factores. Even up to the 1930s teh wages for ag labs in the North were higher than those in the south.

Having family members join the army and see other parts would also have played a part.


I suppose the biggest part of it all is working out what was either the attraction for a new spot or the problem which made them leave an old one.

Helen

[Mythology]

"I often wonder how my BOWDEN family from Cornwall in 1871, got to the Durham coalfields."

That is realtively late, so quite probably by train.

[Burrow Digger]

My theory, which could doubtless be disproven in ten seconds:

The rich moved because they could afford to - they went wherever they fancied.
The poor moved because they had no choice - they had to follow the work.
The middling ones who were just ticking over comfortably stayed put.


Some poor would also have been forcibly moved under a removal order. :(

[BeeE586]

I have always suspected that one of my forbears, Eleanor Millthorpe, was perhaps a Parish Apprentice. She lived into her nineties and always said on census she was born London Spitalfields. How come she married to John Swan in YKS Tankersley in 1815 when she was barely 16 ? There is no family connection to the parish that I have ever discovered, no death of aged parents, no siblings recorded, leading me to think that she came alone, but is it a journey she would have made of her own volition ?

Despite extensive searches I have never found any documentary evidence to either prove or disprove my supposition, nor has a baptism been found for her under any possible name variation that I can think of.

It is a strange coincidence that her daughter Elizabeth Swan was married in 1836 to one Obadiah Millthorpe. He states in 1841 that he was born in Yorkshire, but I have never found his baptism either. This family forms the highest and densest of my brick walls and has done for the last 25 or so years.

cont......

[BeeE586]

I can however explain one move. John Swan died, his widow married Samuel Dimberline in Sheffield and in 1841 are in DBY Staveley. Obadiah Millthorpe died in YKS Ecclesfield in 1842 and Elizabeth also moved to Staveley, presumably to be with her mother, and bringing with her a three year old boy, John Swan Millthorpe who was my gr grandfather.

Some moves CAN be explained, others remain a mystery, such as what caused Samuel to move from Tankersley to Staveley in the first place ?

Eileen

[Peter Goodey]

"That is realtively late, so quite probably by train."

Agreed. Where there were mines, there were railways (and/or canals or seaports).

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Myth :D and Peter,

Thank you both ....... they probably got to their destination a lot faster in those days too! You know, not as many cancellations/delays as there are today, caused by leaves on the lines and the 'wrong' kind of snow! ;)

[Geoffers]

One thing that has always puzzled me is just HOW did people know where to move to for work ? Were advertising leaflets sent out by would-be employers offering both work and living accommodation?
Yes, there was advertising, it met with varied success from county to county. for Norfolk there was an excellent book published a few years ago, 'The Poor Law in Norfolk 1700-1850' This includes an example of a poster from 1835 whch is held bt The National Archives (ref: MN12/8052) Dated 1835 it reads:

NOTICE To the Enumployed Industrious Poor.

The Guardians of the Blofield Union, being desirous of finding work for the industrious and unemployed poor, hereby inform such persons that there is at present a great demand for labour in several of the manufacturing counties of England, and especially for large families of children, provided the regater part of them are above 12 years of age: and the more girls the better.

continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 2.....

The wages given to families are as follows:---and an agreement will be entered into for that purpose for a term of 3 or 4 years:
A labouring man, about 12 shillings per week
A lad of 17 or 18 - 8 ditto
A boy of 16 - 5 ditto
A boy of 14 - 4 ditto
A girl of 15 or 20 uwards - 5s 6d
Ditto of 14 - 5s
Ditto of 12 or 13 - 4s
Ditto of 11 - 1s 3d and schooling

There is an opening for girls who are orphans, or otherwise unprovided for, between the ages of 12 and 18, who may be bound as Apprentices to a Master who has not a large family of his own, and be employed under an agreement, the same as if they were his own children.

Every attention is paid to the religious and moral education of the younger children.

Application is to be made to the Guardians, Churchwardens, and Overseers, of each Parish, who will communicate with the Board of Guardians.

None but persons of steady industious habits will be accepted."
Although this was 1835, similar practices do appear to have continued for several years.

Geoffers

[jeeb]

It is a strange coincidence that her daughter Elizabeth Swan was married in 1836 to one Obadiah Millthorpe. He states in 1841 that he was born in Yorkshire, but I have never found his baptism either. This family forms the highest and densest of my brick walls and has done for the last 25 or so years.

cont......
Hi Eileen,
I wonder if you are aware of this marriage:-
Obadiah Millthrop & Susanna Orridge All Saints Wakefield 8 Dec 1766

I know this is Millthrop not Millthorpe but likely to be a derivation of the same name. Wakefield is in the same geographical area as Tankersley. Is it a possibility then that Eleanor was a grandaughter of this couple, born in London , orphaned and returned to Grandparents and apprenticed out to Tankersley or somewhere close? Just an idea!
Jeremy.

[BeeE586]

Jeremy - Yes, I do know of this marriage, both from the IGI and from other kind correspondents. Sadly, so far as I have been able to discover no Eleanor of whatever variation was baptized at anything like the right time anywhere in the West Riding (as it was then). Millthorpe is not a common name away from that area but it does have any number of variations and over the years I have checked them all. As I said -- |banghead| - |banghead| - |banghead|

Eileen

[Colin Moretti]

....but most poor people would have walked.
JeremyThe Italian poor certainly did, all the way across Europe to England - and back again for the harvest!

Colin

[BeeE586]

This thread has reminded me of something. Several years ago I filled out forms for some University Department - Carlisle or Lancaster perhaps - doing research into just this subject. The forms asked for details of movement within our own families, from where to where, why, occupation, etc. I received an acknowledgement which said that the findings would be published, but I heard no more.

Can anyone remember this, if the findings were published and where they might be available to view ? The name of the University would be a help.

Thank you -- Eileen -- |wave|

[suzzie]

Just want to post and say how enjoyable and informative this thread is. I have learned many things from this forum. Thanks to all who contribute. :)

[oxon57]

Off topic, but as the name turned up in a search, I will post this long shot here.

I am, once again, indebted to Greg Dunn for transcribing what Sophia Debenham wrote in 1893.Sophia Debenham married James Crain McGinnis, and my nephew's wife has a connection with the McGinnis side, on which Greg Dunn apparently had a fair amount of information. She has tried to get in touch with the said Greg Dunn, but with no success. A link given elsewhere to his website proved to be dead. Having found a contact address for Mythology on his website, she has been in touch with him, but he says that he has no current contact address for Greg and has no idea if he's even still alive.
The transcript itself has been copied on a site devoted to the Crain side of the family, but evidently without Greg's knowledge or permission as, from what is stated there, the site owner is also trying to find him!

As I say, it's a long shot, but if any of our American readers are involved in the Crain/McGinnis/Debenham saga and have a current contact address for Greg, she would greatly appreciate it. E-mail (disguise to avoid spambots!), snail mail, anything - she's not fussy.