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welshroots2
08-03-2010, 7:37 PM
Looking for John Nicholas Abt !873 Fishguard

He married Margaret Bevan abt 1880 Llantrissant and they had a daughter Margaret Emily 1901 Llantrissant

The Marriage cert says Johns father was David a farmer .

Margaret died 1902 and John married Maria Phelps I can see all the family on 1911 census except Margaret Emily .I cant find a John in Fisguard with a father David Any ideas ?

Mutley
08-03-2010, 8:41 PM
Looking for John Nicholas Abt !873 Fishguard

He married Margaret Bevan abt 1880 Llantrissant and they had a daughter Margaret Emily 1901 Llantrissant

The Marriage cert says Johns father was David a farmer .

Margaret died 1902 and John married Maria Phelps I can see all the family on 1911 census except Margaret Emily .I cant find a John in Fisguard with a father David Any ideas ?

Sorry, I am just a little confused. How old was John when he married Margaret?

Lizzy9
08-03-2010, 9:38 PM
Hi Mutley :seeya:,

I've been pondering over this myself. I think Margaret was born circa 1880, and this looks like the couple's marriage.

June 1990, Pontypridd, 11a 773

Margaret Ann Bevan and John Nicholas.

Lizzy9
08-03-2010, 9:45 PM
If John was definitely born in Fishguard which was in the Haverfordwest registration district, then this looks like a probable birth entry, it's the only one I can find in Haverfordwest 1872 - 1874.

John Nicholas, 4th qrt 1873, Haverfordwest, 11a 859. If you buy his birth certificate it will name his mother's first and maiden surname.

Orielbenfro
08-03-2010, 10:08 PM
Looking for John Nicholas Abt !873 Fishguard

He married Margaret Bevan abt 1880 Llantrissant and they had a daughter Margaret Emily 1901 Llantrissant

The Marriage cert says Johns father was David a farmer .

Margaret died 1902 and John married Maria Phelps I can see all the family on 1911 census except Margaret Emily .I cant find a John in Fisguard with a father David Any ideas ?

Welshroots2
Do you not think it is only fair that you explain the ongoing difficulties you have been having with this research, so that others are not duplicating research elsewhere that has gone before.
Perhaps also its best to explain that Pembs Register Office have been unable to find a David Nicholas as father of a child born as John Nicholas, it could save others so much angst.
I can understand a new and fresh approach might get results, but that must be balanced by consideration for others time and efforts given so freely ~ or am I wrong ??
It does not offer any shread of real comfort, but some of us are in the same boat, after over 30 years of research my maternal grandfather mrd in 1912 and thats all I know.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
ORIEL a welsh window on a surname

Lizzy9
08-03-2010, 10:11 PM
Hi Mutley :seeya:,

I've been pondering over this myself. I think Margaret was born circa 1880, and this looks like the couple's marriage.

June 1990, Pontypridd, 11a 773

Margaret Ann Bevan and John Nicholas.

So sorry, the year should read 1900

Mutley
08-03-2010, 10:39 PM
I do think, after looking at this for some time, that there are a few things, not quite right.
Like Lizzy, I found the marriage but I wonder why Welshroots says about for the date when the certificate should show it exactly.
Also the age for John given, does it tie with the census and his other marriage certificate?
Do both certificates show David, a farmer, as the father?
Is David deceased on either certificate or still living?
Are the witnesses other family members?

Orielbenfro is quite right. If you want help you do need to tell us all you know.

Have you looked at the family in the census with a John James Thomas Nicholas born in Fishguard (Haverfordwest) in 1869 with a mother named Martha and eliminated him from your research.

It would also be useful to know where you are in the world.

Jellylegs
08-03-2010, 10:55 PM
How about this?
(records held by TNA, Crown Copyright)

1881 census: RG11; Piece 5424; Folio 59; Page 4
Timothy FRANCIS (head)
Maria FRANCIS (wife) b.1838
4 children, then:-
Charles NICHOLAS (father-in-law) age 74
John NICHOLAS (stepson) b. 1870, Llanychare

Timothy FRANCIS and Maria NICHOLAS are listed on the same page on FreeBMD - married in Dec Quarter 1876, Haverfordwest (11a 1363)

If you follow Maria back through the census, in 1861 and 1871 she was a servant to a David HARRIES, farmer.

1861 census ref: RG09; Piece 4170; Folio 58; Page 4

1871 census ref: RG10; Piece 5535; Folio 67; Page 5

Maybe John was registered with the surname Harries? There are 10 that I can see on FreeBMD between June 1870 and March 1873 - all in Haverfordwest.

Or if not, has welshroots2 asked for a search of a birth of John Nicholas, stating the mother's name is Maria? (if that's possible)

Jellylegs

Mutley
08-03-2010, 11:33 PM
I am not sure if this fellow is connected to Jellylegs find. I have not followed it through yet but it is an odd one. ;)

John Nicholas born about 1870 in Llanychaer, the son of Ann. Ann is the unmarried daughter of Charles, a labourer and his ?unmarried? wife Lydia age 68. Charles is 63 in the 1871 Census in Fishguard. Next door is James Nicholas and his wife Hannah (married). James is a Farmer and most on the page are Farm Labourers, Servants or Farmers.

Who then is the father of John, with mother Ann and grandfather Charles?
RG10/5535/68/8
TNA Copyright records

Lizzy9
08-03-2010, 11:50 PM
I do think, after looking at this for some time, that there are a few things, not quite right.
Like Lizzy, I found the marriage but I wonder why Welshroots says about for the date when the certificate should show it exactly.


According to information the requester has posted on another forum, John's marriage certificate (1900) states he was aged 20, and the 1901 census has him recorded as aged 28. Also, Welshroots2, intimates on the other forum that she would dearly like to find Margaret Emily in 1911.

Mutley
09-03-2010, 12:44 AM
There are several possibles for Margaret in 1911 but without knowing the other family members she may be living with it is difficult to be sure of her.

Adding to Jellylegs Harries and Nicholas combination. The two farming families seemed to be combined in 1851 in Llandeloy and there is a young David Nicholas amongst them.
HO107/2479/54/4

William Nicholas age 40 Head. A farmer of 232 with 4 labourers.
Eliza Nicholas age 41 wife
James Harries age 18 servant
Mary Ann Harries age 17 daughter
Elizabeth Nicholas age 12 daughter
John Nicholas age 8 daughter (sic)
James Nicholas age 6 daughter (sic)
David Nicholas age 2 son
William Owen age 33 Visitor
Steven Griffiths age 48 Visitor
James Howels age 18 Servant
Henry Edward age 15 Servant
John Owen age 75 Labourer
William Nicholas age 20 Labourer
Martha Griffiths age 18 Servant
Martha Nicholas age 13 Servant

Jellylegs
09-03-2010, 12:55 AM
I think that Maria and Ann Nicholas could be sisters. I had to go back to the 1841 census to find them together.

HO107: Book/Folio 3/8; Page 9 (FMP)
Living at Cwm Ucha, Dinas, Pembrokeshire
Charles NICHOLAS b. 1807
Lydia b. 1806
Ann b. 1834
Mariah b. 1837
Mary b. 1840

(record held by TNA, Crown Copyright)

Jellylegs

Jellylegs
09-03-2010, 12:55 AM
FreeBMD Marriages has Mary Ann HARRIES and John NICHOLAS on the same page. Dec 1892 (11a 1739)

Jellylegs

(maybe not - it would be too late?)

Jellylegs
09-03-2010, 1:06 AM
1851 Census: HO107/2480/156/1 (record held by TNA, Crown Copyright)

Mary NICHOLAS (age 10) is a house servant for David HARRIES, the farmer.

Jellylegs

Jellylegs
09-03-2010, 1:10 AM
FreeBMD Marriages has Mary Ann HARRIES and John NICHOLSON on the same page. Dec 1892 (11a 1739)

Jellylegs

(maybe not - it would be too late?)

OOPS |oopsredfa - typing error - should be John NICHOLAS, not NICHOLSON.

Jellylegs


P.S. I edited it. ;)

Mutley
09-03-2010, 1:15 AM
The two families are certainly tied together and the first names follow down the lines.

Curious!
It will be interesting to see if Welshroots can make the connection. :detective:

Jellylegs
09-03-2010, 1:47 AM
It will be interesting to see if Welshroots can make the connection. :detective:

Yes, I will stop looking further until welshroots2 replies.

Jellylegs

Mutley
09-03-2010, 2:02 AM
Me also. ;)

welshroots2
09-03-2010, 12:08 PM
i am sorry i didnt mean to mislead or upset any one and am very grateful for all your help
i am fairly new to all this .
Yes Margaret Ann Bevan was born 1880 Llantrissant and married John Nicholas 1900 in Pontypridd area .

He is said to be 20 on marriage cert
The witnessess were the Bevan side of the family The father David was not said to be deceased .
On 1901 cencus it gives Johns age as 28 born abt 1873 and is married to Margaret nee Bevan with a child Margaret Emily.
Margaret died in 1902

On 1911 census where he is married to Maria( nee Phelps nee Richards )his age is 39 born abt 1872 .Maria born abt1874 Letterston and has children Rachel ,Hannah Mary Phelps by previous marriage and Gwendoline ,John David ,Thomas Henry and Blodwen Nicholas by John .

I am going to get the birth cert now of John Nicolas from Pembroke Registry office.
Yes I am sorry, I failed to say I had contacted them but they couldnt find John Nicholas with father David. It did not enter my mind that there were all these other possiblities that you have all kindly come up with .
I posted on another board and the last post there The said they were stumped so I thought it was Ok to try here
I live in Cardiff by the way and if anyone wants photos taken round here give me a shout !!!

Mutley
09-03-2010, 1:56 PM
Morning Welshroots.
It is OK to post your brickwalls on Brit-Gen after trying elsewhere. I don't think we are stumped yet. ;) It is just best to tell us all you know so we are better able to help you. It also helps to know you live in Wales rather than Australia.

Do you have the marriage certificate to Maria Phelps registered in Sep 1902 at Pontypridd? Does this also show David as the father of John?

Have you looked at Genuki (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/PEM/#ChurchRecords)? It does seem as if some of the records are available that may help you tie these families together.

Also some records have been transcribed by the IGI. Try here (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountryWales.htm#PageTitle)

It may be beneficial to try drawing out trees and piecing together the Nicholas families in the area. I would also be very interested in finding out more about Ann, the daughter of Charles and Lydia as well as the several David Nicholas names that are around.

Keep us up to date with your findings.

welshroots2
09-03-2010, 9:15 PM
I will Thanks