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Sylvia Anne
20-12-2009, 11:16 AM
My Louis was born in France at Bouen on the Alps in the South of France on 14/2/1814 according to the family Bible but is a British Subject according to his marraige cert, his childrens birth certs and some census. The GRO in England says there is no certificate for him there to try France. We have no idea why the family was in France at that time but just in case we have had a researcher try all the births of children born overseas while the father was in one of the forces but with no luck there either. We know his fathers name was John but do not know his mothers name or if there were any other children. The different UK census have him born both in the UK and in France and his death certificate has him born around 1823 but does not say where he was born. He married in London in 1844. We have not been able to find a town called Bouen.
Any suggestions would be greatly received. Sylvia in Australia.

Jan1954
20-12-2009, 11:27 AM
Hello Sylvia - welcome to Brit-Gen |wave|

The GRO in England says there is no certificate for him there to try France. There will not be in England - registration did not start until 1837.
We have not been able to find a town called Bouen. My first thought that this might have been Rouen, but that is nowhere near the Alps. What is the source of your information, please?

Could it have been Bourg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourg-en-Bresse)?

jeeb
20-12-2009, 12:28 PM
Hi Sylvia,

A couple of things here, first he is 25 in 1841 so is unlikely to have been born in 1823 where ages are rounded down.
Louis is a French name which suggests his mother was probably French. Does the family Bible give no clues to her name?

Jeremy

Peter Goodey
20-12-2009, 1:14 PM
He married in London in 1844

Can you please provide the details. I can't see a likely marriage in the indexes.

Peter Goodey
20-12-2009, 1:26 PM
Can you please provide the details. I can't see a likely marriage in the indexes.

I've found it now. 26 Aug 1844 at St Bride Fleet Street. Name listed and signed as Lewis not Louis

Kerrywood
20-12-2009, 1:29 PM
Per FreeBMD, Lewis WINTER ~ Mary KEYWORTH Sep Qtr 1844 West London.

Per Ancestry, Leneis WINTER at St Bride's (26 Aug 1844). Clearly written Lewis WINTEN.

Kerrywood

Lizzy9
20-12-2009, 4:17 PM
We have not been able to find a town called Bouen.
Any suggestions would be greatly received. Sylvia in Australia.

Possibly, Beaune?

Wilkes_ml
20-12-2009, 5:46 PM
There is a Bion (not sure where in France) but the Parish of Bion (Saint - Pierre) Catholic Register images are on FamilySearch website and appear to cover the time frame.1804-1814. 1816-1817 1820-1880. may be in French though!

Wilkes_ml
20-12-2009, 5:52 PM
Also Bouillon and Brouains - I'm not sure what the records consist of but may be worth a browse at http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#r=1;p=allCollections

JAP1
21-12-2009, 1:19 AM
Strange that his birthplace was twice recorded in censuses as Cambridgeshire and twice as France ...
Surname always WINTON

1841 - Louis, 25, N (i.e. born in England but not in the county - Cambridgeshire)
1851 - Lewis, 36, France (British Subject)
1861 - Louis, 44, Cambridge
1871 - Lewis, 56, Cambridge Neadenworth (sic - presumably meant to be Needingworth)
1881 - Lewis, 67, France B.S.

This is probably a complete red herring but in 1851 there is a John WINTON, 68, born Cambridge living in the same district as Lewis - Westminster St John the Evangelist, Middlesex.
HO107/ Piece 1479/ Folio 574/ Page 43

JAP

janbooth
21-12-2009, 11:37 AM
Interesting that Louis was living in Cambridge St Giles in the 1841 census as according to my Cambridgeshire FHS Baptismal Index, there are WINTON baptisms there going back to 1746:

1746 James WINTON
1750 Will WINTON
1751 George WINTON
1752 John WINTON
1784 John WINTON
1788 Sarah WINTON

The earliest WINTON in the Index is a George WINTON baptised 1706 at Melbourn.

There is a John WINTON, Labourer, aged 50 in the 1841 census of Cambridge St Botolph living at Mill Lane.

The John WINTON that JAP found for you in the 1851 census in Westminster is described as a Watchman, born c1783 (which would fit in very well with the John baptised at St Giles above) and married to a Harriet who was born c1785 at Burford, Oxfordshire.

Janet

Sylvia Anne
21-12-2009, 12:57 PM
Hello Sylvia - welcome to Brit-Gen |wave|
There will not be in England - registration did not start until 1837. My first thought that this might have been Rouen, but that is nowhere near the Alps. What is the source of your information, please?

Could it have been Bourg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourg-en-Bresse)?

Hi, Firstly Many Thanks for replying so soon. The birth date of 14/2/1814 and place "On the Alps at Bouen in the South of France" all comes from the family Bible. Sylvia

Sylvia Anne
21-12-2009, 1:01 PM
Hi Sylvia,

A couple of things here, first he is 25 in 1841 so is unlikely to have been born in 1823 where ages are rounded down.
Louis is a French name which suggests his mother was probably French. Does the family Bible give no clues to her name?

Jeremy
Hi Jeremy, Many Thanks for answering so soon. No we have no idea of Louis's (lewis) mothers name at all.

Sylvia Anne
21-12-2009, 1:03 PM
I've found it now. 26 Aug 1844 at St Bride Fleet Street. Name listed and signed as Lewis not Louis
Hi Peter, Thanks for answering so soon. Yes, some documents he signed Lewis others Louis, and yes that is his marraige. Sylvia.

Sylvia Anne
21-12-2009, 1:08 PM
Per FreeBMD, Lewis WINTER ~ Mary KEYWORTH Sep Qtr 1844 West London.

Per Ancestry, Leneis WINTER at St Bride's (26 Aug 1844). Clearly written Lewis WINTEN.

Kerrywood
Hi Kerry, Like many documents back then so many people were illiterate so things were written as the writer thought that it sounded. Thanks for your quick reply. Sylvia.

jeeb
21-12-2009, 1:10 PM
Hi Sylvia,

Do any other names appear in the Family Bible?

Jeremy

Sylvia Anne
21-12-2009, 2:54 PM
Strange that his birthplace was twice recorded in censuses as Cambridgeshire and twice as France ...
Surname always WINTON

1841 - Louis, 25, N (i.e. born in England but not in the county - Cambridgeshire)
1851 - Lewis, 36, France (British Subject)
1861 - Louis, 44, Cambridge
1871 - Lewis, 56, Cambridge Neadenworth (sic - presumably meant to be Needingworth)
1881 - Lewis, 67, France B.S.

This is probably a complete red herring but in 1851 there is a John WINTON, 68, born Cambridge living in the same district as Lewis - Westminster St John the Evangelist, Middlesex.
HO107/ Piece 1479/ Folio 574/ Page 43

JAP
Hi Jap, Thankyou for answering so promptly. As you can see there doesn't seem to be anything that is consistant, either his name, age or place of birth. Until we can get a definate place of birth and get a birth cert. we cannot be sure whether that John Winton is his father or not. Sylvia.

Sylvia Anne
21-12-2009, 3:01 PM
Interesting that Louis was living in Cambridge St Giles in the 1841 census as according to my Cambridgeshire FHS Baptismal Index, there are WINTON baptisms there going back to 1746:

1746 James WINTON
1750 Will WINTON
1751 George WINTON
1752 John WINTON
1784 John WINTON
1788 Sarah WINTON

The earliest WINTON in the Index is a George WINTON baptised 1706 at Melbourn.

There is a John WINTON, Labourer, aged 50 in the 1841 census of Cambridge St Botolph living at Mill Lane.

The John WINTON that JAP found for you in the 1851 census in Westminster is described as a Watchman, born c1783 (which would fit in very well with the John baptised at St Giles above) and married to a Harriet who was born c1785 at Burford, Oxfordshire.

Janet
Hi Janet, So many replies in such a short time is marvellous, Thanks so much. Your information is very interesting and I will definately keep a copy in my file.
There are so many inconsistancies in his information it makes it hard to pin him down to any place. Sylvia.

Sylvia Anne
21-12-2009, 3:15 PM
Hi Sylvia,

Do any other names appear in the Family Bible?

Jeremy

Hi Jeremy, I have never seen the family Bible as it is now in New Zealand and the lady who takes care of it is very reluctant to tell anyone about its contents or let them see it from what I hear. Why I don't know as we are all family. Sylvia

jeeb
21-12-2009, 7:40 PM
Until we can get a definate place of birth and get a birth cert. we cannot be sure whether that John Winton is his father or not. Sylvia.

Hi Sylvia,
You will never get a birth certificate because they didn't start that early, not sure of the exact date in France but I'm sure it wasn't as early as 1814. It started in England & Wales in July 1837. However seeing Louis/Lewis married in 1844 you can order his marriage certificate and that will name his father.

Jeremy

JAP1
22-12-2009, 12:23 AM
The 26 Aug 1844 marriage (to Mary KEYWORTH) can be seen in the London Parish Records on Ancestry - at the Parish Church, Parish of St Bride, London.

Both were of full age and were resident at 10 Bride Lane.

Lewis's father is recorded as John WINTEN (sic), Labourer.
Mary's as George KEYWORTH, Cutler.

Witnesses were a George KEYWORTH and a Mary Ann OSBORN.

JAP

marymog
22-12-2009, 1:40 AM
Hi

From information I have from my family, The british Army was in France at the time your Louis was born. Soldiers who were discharged went back to their previous occupation. When regiments were posted abroad on active service most of the wives would have to be left behind because there was no room for them all on board ship. They were obliged to draw lots to decide who would be allowed to go. The unfortunate ones received a small sum of money to see them back to their home towns and that was all. The soldiers were just cannon fodder, very few recieved a pension, a pension was still not a “God given right”. The only way a labourer could have got abroad , would have been in the Army.

There is one possible entry on the NA

WO 97/276/140 JOHN WINTON Born RATHFRILAND, Down Served in 5th Foot Regiment Discharged aged 37, covering dates (1822-1843 )

the 5th Foot Regiment were in Southern France in the timeline of Louis's birth.

of course it could all be coincidence.

Maybe a study of the Napol. Wars may show a place which could have been Louises birth place.

mm

Kerrywood
22-12-2009, 2:08 AM
Until we can get a definate place of birth and get a birth cert. we cannot be sure whether that John Winton is his father or not.

Sylvia, as others have said, you will not get a birth certificate at this date, but you might possibly find a record of baptism.

If he was baptised in an Anglican chapel in France, and if a proper return was made by the chaplain to the Bishop of London, it might be recorded in the bishop's International Memoranda. These returns were made from 1816 onwards, but they report some baptisms and marriages performed up to 30 years before.

The records are at Guildhall Library in London, indexes and films currently held at the London Metropolitan Archives (LMA). Details here (http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/overseas.htm).

It's a long shot, but probably worth a look. The distance enquiry service at both Guildhall and the LMA reopens after the holidays on 4 January.

Kerrywood

Sylvia Anne
23-12-2009, 1:30 PM
Hi Jeremy, I have a copy of Louis's marraige certificate and all ist says is that his fathers name was John and that his father was a Labourer.

Sylvia Anne
23-12-2009, 1:38 PM
Hi Mary, Thanks so much for your help especially so close to Xmas, Whe is the Rathfriland that you mentioned, I can only find one in Ireland. Sylvia.

Sylvia Anne
23-12-2009, 1:44 PM
Hi Kerry, Thankyou too. I have taken a copy of the Guidhall library Manuscripts Section and will do some work on this after Xmas. I have to start work at 7am tommorrow for the last day before the Xmas break so will probably have an early night and not get back on the computer until Boxing Day at the earliest. I would like to Thank you all for all your help It has been amazing getting all these suggestions. I would like to Wish You All a Merry Christmas (not too merry though) and a Happy, Healthy New Year. Sylvia.

marymog
24-12-2009, 1:14 AM
Hi Mary, Thanks so much for your help especially so close to Xmas, Whe is the Rathfriland that you mentioned, I can only find one in Ireland. Sylvia.

This info is from the national archives. and it is in Down, which is in Ireland.

this is the national archives, You type in the name <JOHN WINTON>

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp


I think you can download it, for a price!!! if you think it will help

Mary (Merry Christmas)

Sylvia Anne
10-01-2010, 12:33 PM
Hi Mary, I did as you suggested about the National Archives and what I got does not seem to be our John Winton but I will keep the info just in case. I did pay to get his info and that of another rellie only to find that you get one page which tells you his name, date of birth ( not on all of them) a description of the person. a date that they signed up, their signature and where they signed up. For 3 pounds fifty each I thought it was abit much. It basically told me nothing.
Never mind I would have been forever wondering if I hadn't have done it.
Sylvia.

pottoka
10-01-2010, 11:25 PM
You will never get a birth certificate because they didn't start that early, not sure of the exact date in France but I'm sure it wasn't as early as 1814.

In certain regions of France, parish records go back a lot further than in England, Jeremy. After the French Revolution - 1789, for those who don't want to goggle it - registration became a civil affair. All births, marriages and deaths had to be recorded at the Town Hall (Mairie) of wherever they took place. A legal marriage in France is the one celebrated by the Mayor; a church ceremony is optional and has been since 1789; a baby has to be registered within three days of its birth - and used to have to be given the name of a saint, no regional names allowed, or the registry officer would choose the name himself! That has only changed since about the seventies, and it can still sometimes depend on whether the registry officer got out of bed on the right side.

There is a lot more information on a French registration record than there is on a bmd certificate from England or Wales, but they're more difficult to track down.

pottoka
10-01-2010, 11:32 PM
I have never seen the family Bible as it is now in New Zealand and the lady who takes care of it is very reluctant to tell anyone about its contents or let them see it from what I hear. Why I don't know as we are all family. Sylvia

Do you think that this rather selfish relation of yours could be moved by a carrot in front of her nose, like that of finding out more about Louis, or is she not interested in family history? Yes, I know that old books are precious, but one careful photocopy could surely be made. Then we could all look at the writing of the place name in the Alps and argue about it: is it a 'B' or not, is it a 'u' or an 'n', etc?

If we could only narrow down the place of birth, there would be a sporting chance of getting "un acte de naissance" or a civil registration record of Louis's birth from the Town Hall where it was registered.

jeeb
11-01-2010, 1:13 PM
In certain regions of France, parish records go back a lot further than in England, Jeremy. After the French Revolution - 1789, for those who don't want to goggle it - registration became a civil affair. All births, marriages and deaths had to be recorded at the Town Hall (Mairie) of wherever they took place. A legal marriage in France is the one celebrated by the Mayor; a church ceremony is optional and has been since 1789; a baby has to be registered within three days of its birth - and used to have to be given the name of a saint, no regional names allowed, or the registry officer would choose the name himself! That has only changed since about the seventies, and it can still sometimes depend on whether the registry officer got out of bed on the right side.

There is a lot more information on a French registration record than there is on a bmd certificate from England or Wales, but they're more difficult to track down.

Hi pottoka,
This is very interesting what you say about French registration starting in 1789. I have never had cause to research French ancestry so I was totally unaware of this date. Did people receive a certificate for registering births as people in England did from 1837?
As you say that registrations are more difficult to track down in France, was this because there was no national collection as such?
It is also interesting that you say parish records often go back further than they do in England. Parish registers in England began in 1538 when Henry V111 started the Church of England but of course few survive back that far, many destroyed by Cromwell or simply lost. Some parish records pre date parish registers but are often difficult to locate and are usually in Latin. Many parish registers survive from 1660 when Charles 11 was put back on the thrown.
Going back to French records, I would have thought most French were Catholic, so I find this particularly interesting what you say because Catholic records here & Ireland seem difficult to research very far back.

Jeremy

pottoka
12-01-2010, 2:58 PM
This is very interesting what you say about French registration starting in 1789. I have never had cause to research French ancestry so I was totally unaware of this date.


French civil registration, because after the Revolution it became "l'état civil" (civil registry) where before it had been in the hands of the church. So pre-revolution, you get BMS records - "baptême, mariage, sépulture" or "baptism, marriage and burial" - in the PRs, and post-revolution, you get NMD - "naissance, mariage, décès" or "birth, marriage and death" - in the civil registers.



As you say that registrations are more difficult to track down in France, was this because there was no national collection as such?


Exactly. There is no national register and nothing centralised. You absolutely have to know exactly where an event took place to be able to get the record from the corresponding Town Hall.


Did people receive a certificate for registering births as people in England did from 1837?


I presume so, although I can't say for sure. Every record that I have read or translated so far has always said that it was established in duplicate, so it would be logical to assume that one copy was in the register at the Town Hall and the other for the concerned parties. This is perhaps borne out by the "reconstituted records" in Paris; after a fire in Paris which destroyed eight million BMD records, some were reconstituted from records which people took in to the registry offices and which served as proof for their date and place of birth, for example.



Going back to French records, I would have thought most French were Catholic, so I find this particularly interesting what you say because Catholic records here & Ireland seem difficult to research very far back.


France is a Catholic country and always has been, in spite of wars of religion, the Cathars, the Huguenots, the Saint Bartholomew's Day Massacre, the Edit de Nantes, the repeal of the Edit de Nantes and so on. She is known as "the eldest daughter of of the Church of Rome". In a Catholic country, it is surely logical to have no or little difficulty in researching Catholic records?

pottoka
12-01-2010, 7:15 PM
Did people receive a certificate for registering births as people in England did from 1837?


It would have been the obvious thing for me to think what happened when my brats were born, but it only came to me later, then I had to research it and ring my in-laws to ask some questions.

The French system now is to give to every couple who gets married a "livret de famille" (family booklet). The details of their marriage will be in it: date, place and time; the full names of each spouse; their date and place of birth; the full names of each spouse's parents; what, if any, type of marriage contact was drawn up; and when and where the registration of the marriage took place. A couple who live together will receive a "livret" if and when they have their first child and thus become a family.

The details of the birth of each child (up to twelve of them) will be entered: date, time and place of birth, sex of the child, surname and first name(s) and when the record was established. This takes up the top half of one page; the bottom half is for the death of the child, if it dies before the age of 18. There is a page for the deaths of the husband and wife.

The details in this booklet are taken from the birth registration record. If the child needs a full copy of the record, he/she has to contact the Town Hall of the place where he/she was born to get one.

I looked up when the "livret de famille" was created and found - and why was I surprised? - that it was introduced by the department of the Seine after the 1871 fire in Paris. It was generalised throughout France after a law passed in 1884.

My parents-in-law were married in 1946 and have a "livret de famille" exactly like ours; we were married in 1979. I checked with them as there was a mention on one Internet site of the pre-1950 "livrets" not having as much information in them. Unfortunately, they do not have either of their parents' "livrets", but my mentioning it made them remember their intention of asking my husband's aunt if she still has the "livret" issued to my father-in-law's parents. I certainly hope so: it will be interesting to see how much - or not - change there has been from the post WWI years to now.

Sylvia Anne
01-02-2010, 1:12 PM
Hi Pottoka, I haven't been on the forum since Xmas so was very interesed in everyones comments. Thankyou to all of you. I have sent a letter via snail mail to a contact in NZ and he emailed me saying that in about 3 weeks time he will go and try and get a copy of some kind about Lewis's birth information out of the family Bible for me. He said he couldn't promise anything but would do his best.
I can only cross my fingers and hope for the best now. Sylvia.

jhjohnpeet
17-12-2010, 9:51 PM
Hi Pottoka, I haven't been on the forum since Xmas so was very interesed in everyones comments. Thankyou to all of you. I have sent a letter via snail mail to a contact in NZ and he emailed me saying that in about 3 weeks time he will go and try and get a copy of some kind about Lewis's birth information out of the family Bible for me. He said he couldn't promise anything but would do his best.
I can only cross my fingers and hope for the best now. Sylvia.

I have just picked up the posts on Louis Winton from a year ago. I can say that I have seen (and have) a photographic image of the page from the Family Bible mentioned. The information given by Sylvia is a correct record. The census details are correct. I too picked up the reference to John and Harriett Winton "round the corner" from Louis. I have been frustrated in finding their marriage too. I have written to various potential "Bouen" type places and all have drawn a blank. I also used a French genealogist from the region and he too drew a blank. He did point out that none of the potential places were actually in the Alps in the South of France.

I was interested in the suggestions posed by various correspondents and these may be worth investigating. Another possibility (2010) is Bourne, Vercors, France which is literally on the side of the Alps in the south of France. I only located that this summer and have not yet pursued it. John.