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morrisb
18-08-2009, 8:37 PM
Hello! I'm totally stuck trying to research a relative of my wife.

Here's what I know:
1) Charles Alfred Wales - married Mary Ann Webber 2 Aug 1880 in Newport. Condition: Widower, Profession: Marine Engineer, Father: William Wales, Father's Profession: Farmer
2) He died in 1881, the GRO ref is Dec 1881 Cardiff 11a 177, Age: 37 (therefore born abt 1844)
3) He had a daughter: Louisa Wales born 5 Sep 1881, Cardiff

Here's what I suspect:
1) He drowned - is it worth ordering the death certificate to find out? Any way to trace drowned seamen?
2) He previously married in Liverpool - there's a Charles A Wales, Jun 1866 Liverpool 8b 210
3) He may have used the name Alfred rather than Charles

I can't find him in any census entries, or any record of his birth.

Can anyone suggest where I might go from here?

Many thanks!

Raffaele
19-08-2009, 10:32 AM
This could be his father in 1881

William WALL,Head,63,Clyro, Radnorshire,Farmer 330 Ar 3 Men 1 Boy
Eliza WALL,Wife,52,Clyro, Radnorshire,Farmers Wife
Lucretia WALL,Dau,23,Clyro, Radnorshire,Farmers Dau
William WALL,Son,20,Clyro, Radnorshire,Farmers Son
John WALL,Son,18,Clyro, Radnorshire,Farmers Son
David WALL,Son,8,Clyro, Radnorshire,Scholar
Lillian M. WALL,Dau,6,Clyro, Radnorshire,Scholar
Eliza GOODE,Serv,25,Clifford, Hereford,General Serv Domestic

Chapel Farm,Clyro, Radnor
RG11 5469 / 37 / 30

SueP
19-08-2009, 11:45 AM
Hi Morrisb

Do you have Louise's birth certificate? If yes - what is the address on it? And have you got her on any of the censuses from 1891?

Also the addresses on Charles & Mary's marriage cert?

It would be useful to get Charles's death cert too, not only to confirm cause of death, but to see what his address was at the time.

Charles and Mary are likely to be on the welsh census for 1881 taking into consideration the above - but I am drawing blanks too.

Do you know when/where Mary was born?

I see there was a marriage of a Mary Ann Wales in Cardiff, Mar 1883, 11a, 391 - could this be your Mary remarrying? Potential husbands being John Charles Bethell / William John Pope. But I drew a blank looking under these names.

Trying to assist!
Sue

maesglas/ssclub
19-08-2009, 12:04 PM
Hi morrisb

I looked first for the birth of CHARLES WALES or ALFRED WALES or the combinations of both, but found nothing from 1842 to 1846, apart from this one: WALES ALFRED WILLIAM, born Docking, last quarter 1846 Ref: xv1 61.
Docking on todays maps is not too far from Kings Lynn and the wash, Norfolk.

Found the marriage you mentioned in Newport 1880 and the death in Cardiff 1881, but of course thats no help to you, I have been told that some merchant navy records have been kept at Cardiff and Liverpool Museams, but most are at Kew National records, but even these are very limited, they only kept a small proportion (20% I was told) but worth a look, I live in Newport Monmouthshire as it was then, now Gwent, if there is anything I can look up for you I will do my best, where did you get the drowning info from, any more detail on that, any tit bits can help.
Robert. |help|

SueP
19-08-2009, 12:07 PM
Hi

I have ruled out the marriage of Mary Ann Wales to John Charles Bethell. (I'm assuming Louisa may be referenced under a step-father's name)

John Bethell died 1877, but there was a Bethell birth Sep qtr 1883: Mary Elizabeth. I found her on 1891 census: RG12/4391/72/66.
She is with her mother Elizabeth and some Shanly half siblings

So that could possibly lead to Mary Ann Wales marrying the Pope chap!

To delve a little more!

Sue

maesglas/ssclub
19-08-2009, 12:15 PM
Hi again
Looking on the Genealogist site, 1881 census, I noticed that when trying to select a county, Glamorgan and Monmouthshire are not listed, strange ???
any body know why.
Robert.|bowdown|

emeltee
19-08-2009, 2:50 PM
Hi Robert,
I don't think that The Genealogist have done all the counties yet for 1881. They are adding them bit by bit which is probably why you can't find certain ones.
Emeltee

maesglas/ssclub
19-08-2009, 3:37 PM
Thanks emmelty
Thats not much use then, will try As------ see what they have.
Robert.

maesglas/ssclub
19-08-2009, 3:39 PM
hi emeltee
Justing saying sorry for mis spelling.
thanks once again.
Robert|biggrin|

morrisb
19-08-2009, 8:03 PM
This could be his father in 1881

William WALL,Head,63,Clyro, Radnorshire,Farmer 330 Ar 3 Men 1 Boy
Eliza WALL,Wife,52,Clyro, Radnorshire,Farmers Wife
Lucretia WALL,Dau,23,Clyro, Radnorshire,Farmers Dau
William WALL,Son,20,Clyro, Radnorshire,Farmers Son
John WALL,Son,18,Clyro, Radnorshire,Farmers Son
David WALL,Son,8,Clyro, Radnorshire,Scholar
Lillian M. WALL,Dau,6,Clyro, Radnorshire,Scholar
Eliza GOODE,Serv,25,Clifford, Hereford,General Serv Domestic

Chapel Farm,Clyro, Radnor
RG11 5469 / 37 / 30

Sorry, I didn't say that on Charles wedding cert William Wales is listed as deceased. So, thanks but no, I don't think this is him.

morrisb
19-08-2009, 8:16 PM
Do you have Louise's birth certificate? If yes - what is the address on it? And have you got her on any of the censuses from 1891?


Yes on Louisa's birth certificate the address is: 26 Harold St, Roath, Cardiff.



Also the addresses on Charles & Mary's marriage cert?


It is: 24 Dolphin Street, Newport



Do you know when/where Mary was born?


About 1863, Cardiff.



I see there was a marriage of a Mary Ann Wales in Cardiff, Mar 1883, 11a, 391 - could this be your Mary remarrying? Potential husbands being John Charles Bethell / William John Pope. But I drew a blank looking under these names.


I'm pretty sure she married William Pope in 1883 (Mar 1883 Cardiff 11a 391) and then Henry Withers (Mar 1884 Cardiff 11a 390) ! The family legend is that she went for doomed sailors!

In 1891 I can find Mary Ann Withers living with Henry and a Lucy Withers aged 10 - which I assume is a mis-transcription for Louisa. Also living with them is Mary's mother, also called Mary Anny Webber.

In 1901 I find a Louisa Wales (presumably preferring to use her birth father's name) working as a domestic servant in Cardiff.

morrisb
19-08-2009, 8:20 PM
where did you get the drowning info from, any more detail on that, any tit bits can help.


I've nothing more than family heresay to go on for the drowning - that and him being a marine engineer. Thanks for the offers of help - I simply don't know what records may or may not exist...

I was hoping that maybe the death certificate might name the vessel he was on if he died. Maybe not, but I guess I'm running out of options... |banghead|

JAP1
20-08-2009, 7:03 AM
Hi morrisb,

It does seem that you need to get that death certificate. It might not be any help - but you'll never know unless you get it.

Could you please tell us Charles Alfred's age on his marriage cert?
Also the details for Mary Ann - age, father's name and occupation?
And names of witnesses ...

The scenario you've set out does seem reliable - the 1883 marriage of a William John POPE with a Mary Ann WALES on the same page, then the 1884 marriage of a Harry WITHERS with a Mary Ann POPE on the same page.

I take it that Mary Ann was with her parents in the 1881 census but recorded under her maiden surname.

1881 census
26 Harold St, Roath, Glamorgan
{same address as on the birth cert for Louisa WALES}
James WEBBER, Head, Mar, 53, Fishmonger, b Bristol
Mary Ann do, Wife, do, 54, --, b do
{then on the next page}
Charles WEBBER, Son, Unm, 16, Fishmonger, b Cardiff
Jessie do, Daur, --, 4, --, b do
Mary Ann do, do, --, 18, --, b do

I can't seem to trace Mary Ann in 1871 ...

Best of luck,

JAP

SueP
20-08-2009, 10:07 AM
Hi

JAP1 beat me to it re 1881 census. The addresses gave us an idea of where to look.

Thinking about the mariners - my daughter is a geophysicist and works offshore for four weeks at a time. As a result she has a seaman's card. I would assume that your mariners would too. I'm sure my daughter had to send her papers to Cardiff/Newport as I posted them on her behalf.

I wonder if they keep records? You may be able to find out if rumour is fact.

I did try to find some news report on Gale's, but it came up a blank.

BFN

SueP
20-08-2009, 11:08 AM
Hi

This maybe co-incidence, but trying to find a marriage of James Webber to Mary Ann (Mary Anne's parents) I came across this one:

James Webber: possibly to Mary Ann Pope, Dec 1851, Liverpool, 20,178

Could these be related to your lot?

The below references are James & Mary Ann on 1851 & 1861 census:
1851: H0107/2466/260/29 (Swansea)
1861: RG9/4036/50/24 (Cardiff)

No luck finding them re 1871.

But we digress, it is Charles A Wales we need to find!

Regards

morrisb
20-08-2009, 8:05 PM
Could you please tell us Charles Alfred's age on his marriage cert?
Also the details for Mary Ann - age, father's name and occupation?
And names of witnesses ...


Charles Alfred Wales' age on his marriage cert is 37 (could be 39 but looks more like 37).

Mary Ann Webber was 20, father: James Webber, his occupation: Baker, although in census entries he is variously listed as a green grocer and fishmonger.

The witnesses were: Martha Ann Jones and Edith L. Jones.

The 1871 census reference for Mary and her family is: RG10; Piece: 5363; Folio: 54; Page: 23. At that time they lived at 34 Patrick Street, Cardiff.

Thanks to all for the suggestions so far!

morrisb
20-08-2009, 8:31 PM
Thinking about the mariners - my daughter is a geophysicist and works offshore for four weeks at a time. As a result she has a seaman's card. I would assume that your mariners would too. I'm sure my daughter had to send her papers to Cardiff/Newport as I posted them on her behalf.


Good idea Sue! There's a section on family research over at the National Maritime Museum website: nmm.ac.uk/ - seems an obvious place to look now that I've found it. Looks like quite a task to trace someone though!

JAP1
21-08-2009, 3:59 AM
It might still be interesting to get the death certificate for Charles?

Incidentally, I think you once said that he was sometimes known as Alfred? What was the source of that information (apologies if you've already said and I missed it).

Regards,

JAP

SueP
21-08-2009, 12:42 PM
Hi

I'm with JAP1 and also think you should order the death cert of Charles.

In the meantime I have been trying to find Charles on the censuses with no luck (again).

BUT I did find an Elizabeth Wales, aged 29, wdwr, Born: Preston, Lancs on the 1881 census with a son Charles A Wales at 9 yrs old born Liverpool. (84 Leeds St, RG11/3611/44/3).

Then: the birth of Charles Alfred Wales, Mar 1872, W Derby, 8b, 349

I suspect this could be the result of the marriage you found re 1866 in Liverpool. Possible wives here were Elizabeth Eastham or Sarah Kennah.

Decided to search for Elizabeth Eastham b. 1852 app and can't find her on 1861/1871 censuses with certainty. But there were a couple of likely births:

B. Elizabeth Eastham, Mar 1852, Preston, 8e, 43_ (I have tried to verify ref via FmyP but it is unreadable)

B. Elizabeth Anne Eastham, Jun 1852, Preston, 8e, 450

(The Mar one I feel is the likeliest - as the name 'Anne' wasn't on the marriage ref).

I found Elizabeth Wales on the 1891 census in West Derby Workhouse, as a pauper, wdwr aged 38. (RG12/2981/74/22) No sign of young Charles.

In the light of lack of 'finds' I would be inclined to order the 1866 marriage certificate and that of the young Charles's birth, as they could be linked to your Charles senior. (I'd have to just to rule them out!!)

Regards
Sue

SueP
21-08-2009, 12:51 PM
Hi

Here is a link to the place where my daughter registered to enable her to have a seaman's card. Might be worth looking at.

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga07-home/workingatsea/mcga-rss.htm

It also seems as if there were no registers between 1856 and 1913 re the TNA?:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=128&j=1

Regards
Sue

JAP1
21-08-2009, 2:23 PM
I'll be waiting on tenterhooks in case the death cert is forthcoming. :D

All the best,

JAP

morrisb
21-08-2009, 6:33 PM
I did find an Elizabeth Wales, aged 29, wdwr, Born: Preston, Lancs on the 1881 census with a son Charles A Wales at 9 yrs old born Liverpool. (84 Leeds St, RG11/3611/44/3).

Then: the birth of Charles Alfred Wales, Mar 1872, W Derby, 8b, 349

I suspect this could be the result of the marriage you found re 1866 in Liverpool. Possible wives here were Elizabeth Eastham or Sarah Kennah.

I found Elizabeth Wales on the 1891 census in West Derby Workhouse, as a pauper, wdwr aged 38. (RG12/2981/74/22) No sign of young Charles.

In the light of lack of 'finds' I would be inclined to order the 1866 marriage certificate and that of the young Charles's birth, as they could be linked to your Charles senior.

Hmmm... that's interesting Sue. If he was married to Elizabeth Eastham and she was still alive in 1891 then that would suggest he was telling porkies at his marriage to Mary Ann Webber in 1881, and that he was not a widower at all! That's a lot of "if"s though...


It might still be interesting to get the death certificate for Charles?


I ordered the death certificate last night! According to the Crew List Index Project (http://www.crewlist.org.uk/findingoncrewlists.html) from 1875 the name of the vessel should be on the death certificate of those lost at sea. That should help me find the registered number of the ship and then the crew list...

...which is interesting. But doen't really help me trace his roots. It's frustrating to find someone apparently without a birth certificate and without any census entries - is that common do you think? Or - as a potential bigamist - is there something hidden here? Just speculating! :confused:

SueP
22-08-2009, 8:50 PM
Hi

I have a similar problem with my own paternal Gt Grandfather. We know his name as of 1909 re birth certs of his children with my Gt Grandma. Also his WW1 service is recorded with this name. But it is rumoured that this is not his original name, and I certainly can't find him on the censuses before 1911.

I knew my Gt Grandmother was married before, thus my Gt Grandparents never marrying each other. But I recently discovered via 1911 census that her first husband remarried. He stated he was a 'widower', but of course Gt Grandma was still alive, so to me he became a bigamist. I reckon Gt Grandma was the wrong-doer as their daughter remained with her father. I can't quite understand how a mother can leave a child, and to then go on to name her next daughter with the same christian name really puzzles me!

My brickwall!! |banghead| (And a big question was my Gt Grandfather also married already, with a family?)

Cheers

Xantippe
05-09-2009, 6:30 PM
SueP,

Don't be too harsh on her she may not have been allowed to take the child. Husbands had a lot more influence back then and she may well have been considered his chattel, by him if not still by law. Naming the second child with the same name may have been her way of keeping hold of the first child that she wasn't allowed to have.

Kris

morrisb
08-09-2009, 8:41 PM
Back from holiday to find Charles Alfred Wales Death Certficate waiting for me and...

...well it's a little disappointing really. He didn't drown at sea after all - so I'll never know the name of his vessel.

When and where: 26 Nov 1881 - Infirmary St John Glam Cardiff
Age: 37 years (a discrepancy since his marriage cert says 37 in August 1880)
Occupation: Engine Fitter
Cause: Pleuro Pneumonia 1 month
Informant: James Webber, Father in Law, 26 Harold Street
Registered: 26 Nov 1881

Which is interesting, but not terribly helpful in tracing him.

I think I'll have to try my luck and order the marriage certificate of Charles A Wales in Liverpool Jun 1866 and see if that helps in any way...

morrisb
23-09-2009, 8:10 PM
OK - I've got the marriage cert of Charles A Wales and Elizabeth Eastham:

14 May 1866 - St Nicholas Church, Liverpool

Charles Alfred Wales, full age, bachelor, Mariner, Athol St, Father: William Wales, Farmer

and

Elizabeth Eastham, full age, spinster, no profession, Athol St, Father: Richard Eastham, Fireman

Witnessed by: John Thomas Maneperry (?) and Jane Rankin

Looks like it's the chap I'm after - but I'm not sure where to go from here... Any suggestions welcome!

JAP1
24-09-2009, 7:07 AM
For what it's worth, this seems to be Elizabeth in 1861 (given her father's ocupation on the marriage cert).

RG9/ Piece 2657/ Folio 170/ Book 74
Liverpool
EASTHAM
Richard, Head, 37, Ships Stoker, b Lancashire Howick (Ships Stoker = Fireman)
Allice, Wife, 37, b Penwortham
Elizabeth, Daur, 11, Scholar, b Howick
Ann, Daur, 10, b ?
James E, Son, 7, Scholar, b Ireland
Allice, Daur, 1, b Liverpool
(note - Ann was squashed in as an afterthought and details are not complete)

By 1871, Allice was a widow.

JAP
PS: Death, Richard EASTHAM, 44,W Derby, 1867

JAP1
24-09-2009, 9:42 AM
Hello again morrisb,

I've been mulling over your brickwall - to no avail.

It does seem to be the same chap - consistency of his name, his sea-going occupation, and the name and occupation of his stated father ...

1) I guess that one thing you can now do is to obtain the 1872 birth cert of Charles Alfred WALES just in case (yes, it is easy to spend other people's money!).

2) Also, could you have another look at the name of the 1866 marriage witness - I can't seem to find that surname or anything resembling it ...

3) I wonder if anyone can search censuses by address? It might be interesting to see who was at Athol St in 1861 and 1871 ...

It is really maddening that we can't find:

a) Charles Alfred WALES (snr) on any census at all

b) Elizabeth (EASTHAM) WALES in 1871

c) any trace of Charles Alfred WALES (jnr) after 1881.

Very best of luck,

JAP
PS: Not sure if we had Elizabeth's death?
Elizabeth WALES, age 47, Liverpool, Sep qtr 1898, Vol 8b, Page 104
I guess that would be another last gasp purchase - just in case Charles Alfred jnr was still alive and was the informant ...
PPS: I think I asked this earlier - was there any reason why you said that Charles Alfred snr was sometimes known as Alfred ...

morrisb
24-09-2009, 7:08 PM
For what it's worth, this seems to be Elizabeth in 1861 (given her father's ocupation on the marriage cert).

RG9/ Piece 2657/ Folio 170/ Book 74
Liverpool
EASTHAM
Richard, Head, 37, Ships Stoker, b Lancashire Howick (Ships Stoker = Fireman)
Allice, Wife, 37, b Penwortham
Elizabeth, Daur, 11, Scholar, b Howick


Thanks for looking in again JAP1 - if this is the same Elizabeth then it would mean that she was 16 when she married Charles in 1866 - certainly not Full age! It's a good match though and wouldn't be unheard of...

morrisb
24-09-2009, 7:17 PM
2) Also, could you have another look at the name of the 1866 marriage witness - I can't seem to find that surname or anything resembling it ...

I've uploaded the witness names - see what you make of it! (Click to see the full sized image)

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.52b8ed99e3.gif (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?52b8ed99e3.gif)

morrisb
24-09-2009, 7:21 PM
I think I asked this earlier - was there any reason why you said that Charles Alfred snr was sometimes known as Alfred ...

I'm afraid I have no particular reason for thinking this - only that his name is always quoted in full on all the certs.

...that and the hope that this census entry may relate to him:
Class: HO107; Piece: 1767; Folio: 143; Page: 10

1851 England Census
Name: Alfred Wales
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Susanna
Gender: Male
Where born: Tilney, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Tilney St Lawrence
County/Island: Norfolk

William Wales 60 - Farmer
Susanna Wales 48
William Wales 34
Edward Wales 14
Alfred Wales 9
Susanna Wales 7

But to be honest, I think I'm starting to grasp at straws now!

christanel
24-09-2009, 11:17 PM
I've uploaded the witness names - see what you make of it! (Click to see the full sized image)

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.52b8ed99e3.gif (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?52b8ed99e3.gif)

There is a John Thomas Manepeny married 1866 on ancestry. Comparing the 'n' in Rankin and in JT's name they look the same. The only other idea is Moneypenny but only if a mispelling of the name is accepted.
Christina

JAP1
25-09-2009, 7:49 AM
Hi Christina, Before I looked at your reply (i.e. I had no expectations) I too read it as Manepeny - and found the IGI marriage.

Tried censuses - nothing.
Then tried John with wife Agnes in Liverpool.
In 1871 the nearest is probably a John MCALHENNY - John, a Labourer at the Docks, b ca 1843 & Agnes b ca 1850, both b Ireland.
In 1881 the same couple seems to be recorded as MCALINY.

So that doesn't seem to help at all.

JAP

morrisb
25-09-2009, 8:17 PM
There is a John Thomas Manepeny married 1866

Indeed - in the same quarter (Apr, May, Jun) and location (Liverpool) as Charles.

morrisb
25-09-2009, 8:19 PM
So that doesn't seem to help at all.

Hmmm, well not directly JAP1 but it's got me wondering if the reason I can't find Charles Alfred Wales in the English censuses (censii?) is because he wasn't English at all..?

For instance, I can see a Charles A Wales, b. 1843 in the 1850 United States Federal Census in Holliston Massachusetts... although my Ancestry subscription doesn't allow me to follow it up. Is anyone else able to take a look? Many thanks!

morrisb
25-09-2009, 8:28 PM
Also, in the 1860 United States Federal Census there is a Charles Wales son of William Wales in Windham Connecticut - although the birth year is out a bit - 1840.

v.wells
25-09-2009, 8:48 PM
1850 US Census

Wainright Wales 42 Shoemaker
Emily 38
Harriet P. 16
Albert W 14
George H 11
Emily M 9
Clara J 6
Mary E 4
Charles A 7, All born/live in Holliston, Mass
Also
1850 US Census
Living/born in Randolph, Norfolk, Mass
Jonathan 35 Farmer
S. Augusta 35
Augusta 5
Charles A 3 and Jonathan 7 mos

morrisb
26-09-2009, 10:40 AM
Thanks Vanessa - neither look like my chap.

Well, I think that's as far as I can go - unless anyone has a cunning plan?

JAP1
26-09-2009, 11:02 AM
Hi morrisb,

No, I have no cunning plans!

Sorry!

Perhaps your Charles Alfred WALES was born in Ireland.
And given my own Irish experiences (the ones I'm researching all left in the mid - to not much later - 1800s) I'd probably give up at this stage.

Sorry.

It's been an interesting journey and do please let us know if you find out anything else.

All the very very best,

JAP

morrisb
27-09-2009, 3:14 PM
Ah well, maybe it's time to put this down for a bit. I guess you never know - sometimes when you pick things up again 6 months later you see things that you missed...

Thanks to JAP and Sue and everyone that looked in and offered suggestions!