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andrealeach2000
07-02-2009, 8:54 PM
Hi,

My brick wall is Ellen Sumner (nee Sumner). She married Edward Sumner17/10/1881 St Peter Liverpool. Her father Richard Sumner a carter, his John Sumner a butcher. Edward and Ellen appear on 1891, 1901 and 1911 and they had 9 children that I know of but apparently had 15 in total (1911 census). My problem is that I cannot find Ellen's birth or her entry on 1871 or 1881 census.
I already have 1 wrong birth cert and don't want any more but if someone could offer advice as to what other avenues I could go down I would be grateful.

1891 census RG12; Piece: 2958; Folio 69; Page 12
1901 census RG13; Piece: 3473; Folio: 148; Page: 43.

Ellen claims to be 17 on marriage cert, 26 in 1891, 36 in 1901 but 48 in 1911(her husband has also aged an extra 2 yrs in 1911 so I think should probably be 46).
I have also had search done at GRO from 1860-1866 but still no joy.

I know she must be out there somewhere but am really stumped. Please give me some hope.|banghead|

Andrea

andrealeach2000
07-02-2009, 9:13 PM
I have tried all in the vicinity of Liverpool inc Prescot with father Richard mother unknown and only got the cert back that is wrong.
What other records are there out there apart from census where I could find the family incase she was known by another name in her younger years?

Andrea

Raffaele
07-02-2009, 9:20 PM
I make her birth to be about 1874 so

Mar 1873

Sumner Ellen Liverpool 8b 58

Mar 1875

Emma Sumner W Derby 8b 545

These two were slected using Liverpool and W Derby registries
Below is a more general search in the area.

Jun 1873

SUMNER Ellen Wigan 8c 58

Dec 1874

Sumner Ellen Leigh 8c 231
Sumner Ellen Ormskirk 8b 739

Jun 1876

Sumner Ellen Chorley 8e 540

andrealeach2000
07-02-2009, 9:24 PM
She married in 1881 and taking her ages on census into consideration I make it 1864 not 1874.

:confused:

Raffaele
07-02-2009, 9:30 PM
That will be my speed reading then. 17 Marriage 1891. Oops

andrealeach2000
07-02-2009, 9:32 PM
Its ok I just thought you'd been at the vino!

Raffaele
07-02-2009, 9:43 PM
That would be a better excuse.

Where exactly was she born according to the census ?

andrealeach2000
07-02-2009, 9:47 PM
She says Liverpool. Sumner is a pretty common name in Lancs so have no reason to think otherwise either.

Thanks

Raffaele
07-02-2009, 9:58 PM
Mar 1862
SUMNER Mary Ellen Liverpool 8b [4_]9

Mar 1863
SUMNER Mary Ellen W Derby 8b 349

Dec 1864
Sumner Mary Ellen W Derby 8b 353

Searching all Sumner births in Liverpool and West Derby I got these three
It thins it down so that you can see alternates.

Did you know on Free BMD you can search by registry district
I only know of Liverpool and W Derby but there may be more to check

andrealeach2000
07-02-2009, 11:06 PM
Yes I knew that about searches and have done many a search. Was kind of hoping for a miracle lol

Maybe when I win the lottery................ I didnt tonight................ i will buy loads of certs just to find the right one.
Or maybe just get a job at the GRO up the road!

Andrea |5cups|

Oates
07-02-2009, 11:28 PM
When looking for her on the censuses and bmd records, try Hellen and Helen as well as Ellen - I've noticed those names seem to get confused a lot. Edit - and of course Summer for the surname.

I'll have a look in 1881 now.

Oates
07-02-2009, 11:43 PM
I don't subscribe to ancestry but this family seems worth taking a closer look at:

20 Florist Street, Liverpool, Lancs
Richard Sumner 45 Head, Carter
Margaret Sumner 23 Wife
John Sumner 16
James Sumner 6
Anne Sumner (no age on transcription)

I suspect there are a fair few transcription errors in there. There's another Richard Sumner who is a Carter. His wife's name is Mary and they are in their 50s and living alone - no children still at home.

There's also an Ellen Sumner b1862 listed as servant to a family of Sumners - perhaps she's working for a wealthy uncle? He's a manufacturer of rope employing 23 hands. Infact, perhaps she met her husband through them. There are 2 other Ellen Sumners of about the right age working as servants in Lancashire.

Have you looked at these before?

andrealeach2000
07-02-2009, 11:53 PM
Yes I have found them both and suspect that the one in Liverpool is the one I'm after but without the birth I have no idea of her mothers name for previous census. Richard in Liverpool has remarried to a much younger girl and had 2 children and later he marries again but he is also a bit of an enigma before 1881. Also this Richard was born Ainsdale (near southport) and my searches have led me to think he was illegitimate and the family he lived with also ended up in Liverpool.
I have tried in the past to find and match all the Richard Sumner marriages and find them on the census's to rule them out 1 by 1 but it just gets too complicated.
I have found the following
1871 Class: RG10; Piece: 3812; Folio: 96; Page: 17
which has a NK (not known) Sumners carter with wife and daughter also NK.

The other is in Southport and whilst it could be him I just feel that it is not.

Thanks for suggestion though.
Andrea

andrealeach2000
08-02-2009, 12:01 AM
I have found the rope maker. Will take a look into that further thanks.
I have also found the others previously but they have led to dead ends.

Am i likely to find info about the family anywhere else e.g rent records etc?